Understanding the Trinity.

[Cooper]

They are one in purpose, the living to do his Fatherswill-John 5:30. It also said the followers would be one with them. living to do Jesus Fatherswill-Matt 7:21
He also said-The Father is greater than i.

When Jesus, the alpha and omega said, "the Father is greater than I" he was speaking of his time on earth.

 

[Keiw]

When Jesus, the alpha and omega said, "the Father is greater than I" he was speaking of his time on earth.

He was speaking truth. John 20:17, Rev 3:12--The Father is his God always-1Corinthians 15:24-28-- God does not have a God, nor is he ever in subjection to any.

 

[Pierac]

When Jesus, the alpha and omega said, "the Father is greater than I" he was speaking of his time on earth.

This is referenced to Revelation 1:8. But Revelation 1:8 is talking about The Almighty, Revelation 22:12 is not using this title for Jesus but for God again. If we read Revelation 22:6 it tells us who the subject is, "The Lord, the God of prophetic spirits." Jesus does say in Revelation 1:17 that, "I am the first and the last." We shall examine what he meant by that statement.

Just because the same title is used to describe two people does not mean that those two people are one. As we can easily read… David called King Saul "My Lord " but that does not make Saul God (1 Samuel 24:8).

Israel’s Judges were called "saviors" but that does not make them and Jesus one person? (Nehemiah 9:27).

Jeroboam the Second of Israel is called "Israel’s savior," but that does not make him Jesus? (2 Kings 13:5)

Before we discuss these verses it would benefit us to understand John’s view of God.

Examples:
John 17:3
"Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent."
Revelation 1:6
"Who (Jesus) has made us into a kingdom, priests for his God and Father."
John 20:17
"But go to my brothers and tell them, "I am going to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God."

In these verses John does not consider Jesus to be God in any way. For John, Jesus has a God. John also does not believe Jesus to be omniscient even after his resurrected state. Revelation 1:1 says:

"The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to him."

Even after his resurrection Jesus is not omniscient. God still gives him revelations. Emphasis on God gives him. Now we will look at Revelation 1:17 with the correct background of John’s thinking, and not with a mind set on making Jesus God at all costs.

It is obvious that God Almighty is the first and the last, but how is Jesus also the first and the last? Jesus is the first because he is the firstborn in two ways. One, he is the firstborn of God, which to the Jews implied that as the firstborn you are entitled to be the heir of your father, which Jesus is (Hebrews 1:2). Also according to Strong’s Greek Dictionary it means foremost in importance, which Jesus certainly is. This also corresponds with Psalms 89:28-30.

Jesus is the firstborn from the dead to be resurrected, which is what Jesus is speaking about in Revelation 1:18 which follows his statement that he is the first and the last. It reads:

"I am the first and the last, the one who lives. Once I was dead, but now I am alive forever."

This is also is in agreement with Colossians 1:18. Jesus is the last because when he comes again it will be the end of the present age, and he will be in effect the last one to enter this world while it is still under the influence of Satan. He will then usher in the Messianic kingdom of God

 

[Cooper]

He was speaking truth. John 20:17, Rev 3:12--The Father is his God always-1Corinthians 15:24-28-- God does not have a God, nor is he ever in subjection to any.

In the beginning Jesus was the creator, i.e. the Word who later humbled himself and came among us. Not two, but One, the invisible made visible.
.

 

[Cooper]

This is referenced to Revelation 1:8. But Revelation 1:8 is talking about The Almighty, Revelation 22:12 is not using this title for Jesus but for God again. If we read Revelation 22:6 it tells us who the subject is, "The Lord, the God of prophetic spirits." Jesus does say in Revelation 1:17 that, "I am the first and the last." We shall examine what he meant by that statement.

Just because the same title is used to describe two people does not mean that those two people are one. As we can easily read… David called King Saul "My Lord " but that does not make Saul God (1 Samuel 24:8).

Israel’s Judges were called "saviors" but that does not make them and Jesus one person? (Nehemiah 9:27).

Jeroboam the Second of Israel is called "Israel’s savior," but that does not make him Jesus? (2 Kings 13:5)

Before we discuss these verses it would benefit us to understand John’s view of God.

Examples:
John 17:3
"Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent."
Revelation 1:6
"Who (Jesus) has made us into a kingdom, priests for his God and Father."
John 20:17
"But go to my brothers and tell them, "I am going to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God."

In these verses John does not consider Jesus to be God in any way. For John, Jesus has a God. John also does not believe Jesus to be omniscient even after his resurrected state. Revelation 1:1 says:

"The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to him."

Even after his resurrection Jesus is not omniscient. God still gives him revelations. Emphasis on God gives him. Now we will look at Revelation 1:17 with the correct background of John’s thinking, and not with a mind set on making Jesus God at all costs.

It is obvious that God Almighty is the first and the last, but how is Jesus also the first and the last? Jesus is the first because he is the firstborn in two ways. One, he is the firstborn of God, which to the Jews implied that as the firstborn you are entitled to be the heir of your father, which Jesus is (Hebrews 1:2). Also according to Strong’s Greek Dictionary it means foremost in importance, which Jesus certainly is. This also corresponds with Psalms 89:28-30.

Jesus is the firstborn from the dead to be resurrected, which is what Jesus is speaking about in Revelation 1:18 which follows his statement that he is the first and the last. It reads:

"I am the first and the last, the one who lives. Once I was dead, but now I am alive forever."

This is also is in agreement with Colossians 1:18. Jesus is the last because when he comes again it will be the end of the present age, and he will be in effect the last one to enter this world while it is still under the influence of Satan. He will then usher in the Messianic kingdom of God

You don't understand that even you can be a Father and a Son at the same time.
.

 

[Cooper]

He was speaking truth. John 20:17, Rev 3:12--The Father is his God always-1Corinthians 15:24-28-- God does not have a God, nor is he ever in subjection to any.

Nor is Jesus subject to another when He returns in all his glory. You take a mere 33 years and make out it is eternal.
.

 

[Keiw]

In the beginning Jesus was the creator, i.e. the Word who later humbled himself and came among us. Not two, but One, the invisible made visible.
.

Gods master worker at Proverbs 8, tells all he was created. The term firstborn of all creation at Coll 1:15 proves that as well.

 

[Keiw]

Nor is Jesus subject to another when He returns in all his glory. You take a mere 33 years and make out it is eternal.
.

1Cor 15:24-28 disagrees with you. This event occurs after all things are made new and satan is destroyed.

 

[Cooper]

Gods master worker at Proverbs 8, tells all he was created. The term firstborn of all creation at Coll 1:15 proves that as well.

You do not know what firstborn means. It is about status.

Let me help you.
King David was the youngest of ten children, but he was the anointed King of Israel. He was God's firstborn and pre-eminent over all.

Manasseh was born first, but Ephraim is the "firstborn," not because he was born first, he wasn't, BUT Ephraim was pre-eminent over Manasseh, making him the firstborn.

When we are told Jesus is the firstborn over all creation, we are being told that Jesus is pre-eminent over all creation i.e. Jesus is Creator God, which is a re-affirmation of Col 1:16.

He (Jesus) is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. And he is before (firstborn) all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be pre-eminent. For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell,
(Colossians 1:15-19 ESV)
.

 

[Keiw]

You do not know what firstborn means. It is about status.

Let me help you.
King David was the youngest of ten children, but he was the anointed King of Israel. He was God's firstborn and pre-eminent over all.

Manasseh was born first, but Ephraim is the "firstborn," not because he was born first, he wasn't, BUT Ephraim was pre-eminent over Manasseh, making him the firstborn.

When we are told Jesus is the firstborn over all creation, we are being told that Jesus is pre-eminent over all creation i.e. Jesus is Creator God, which is a re-affirmation of Col 1:16.

He (Jesus) is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. And he is before (firstborn) all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be pre-eminent. For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell,
(Colossians 1:15-19 ESV)
.

The term all creation proves your theory wrong.

 

[Scott Downey]

You do not know what firstborn means. It is about status.

Let me help you.
King David was the youngest of ten children, but he was the anointed King of Israel. He was God's firstborn and pre-eminent over all.

Manasseh was born first, but Ephraim is the "firstborn," not because he was born first, he wasn't, BUT Ephraim was pre-eminent over Manasseh, making him the firstborn.

When we are told Jesus is the firstborn over all creation, we are being told that Jesus is pre-eminent over all creation i.e. Jesus is Creator God, which is a re-affirmation of Col 1:16.

He (Jesus) is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. And he is before (firstborn) all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be pre-eminent. For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell,
(Colossians 1:15-19 ESV)
.

Firstborn, as in Christ was born taking on flesh and blood to become the First Born Son of God, and we are part of His family, and He our head.
It is also about Paul teaching Christ as the second Adam to be our Savior, the second Man is the Lord from heaven.

This was quite a wonderful thing He did for us, to make us part of His family in such an intimate way, to identify with us so completely.
He bore our image, and now, because of what He did for us, we will bear His image.

===============================================
1 Corinthians 15
45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.

===============================================
Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
===============================================
Hebrews 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
===============================================
Hebrews 2
10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. 11 For both He who sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of one, for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren, 12 saying:

“I will declare Your name to My brethren;
In the midst of the assembly I will sing praise to You.”

13 And again:

“I will put My trust in Him.”

And again:

“Here am I and the children whom God has given Me.”

14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 16 For indeed He does not give aid to angels, but He does give aid to the seed of Abraham. 17 Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.

 

[Cooper]

Firstborn, as in Christ was born taking on flesh and blood to become the First Born Son of God, and we are part of His family, and He our head.
It is also about Paul teaching Christ as the second Adam to be our Savior, the second Man is the Lord from heaven.

This was quite a wonderful thing He did for us, to make us part of His family in such an intimate way, to identify with us so completely.
He bore our image, and now, because of what He did for us, we will bear His image.

===============================================
1 Corinthians 15
45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.

===============================================
Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
===============================================
Hebrews 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
===============================================
Hebrews 2
10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. 11 For both He who sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of one, for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren, 12 saying:

“I will declare Your name to My brethren;
In the midst of the assembly I will sing praise to You.”

13 And again:

“I will put My trust in Him.”

And again:

“Here am I and the children whom God has given Me.”

14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 16 For indeed He does not give aid to angels, but He does give aid to the seed of Abraham. 17 Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.

Yes, it is wonderful that God became flesh for our sakes because he was first over all creation, and don't you forget it.
.

 

[Pierac]

You don't understand that even you can be a Father and a Son at the same time.
.

But only one can be without a Beginning... God has no beginning! Yet Jesus is only referred to in time... Any time you read scripture that says in the beginning... It's not referring to God as God has no beginning as He is eternal... without beginning or end... Jesus all ways has or is in a beginning. Thus not always being in existents! I'm a Father... But my son did not always exist all during my life. Thus I can say in the beginning my Son did this or that because of my commandments! Just pick any age.. I can and my son took out the trash and did as he was told... Just like Jesus claims!

(John 8:40) "But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God :this Abraham did not do."

God could never make such a statement...

NASB Joh 8:42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me.

Joh 12:49 "For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak.

The God of the universe does not talk like this!!! It's clear Jesus has a GOD!!! You cannot be God and then claim to have one!

 

[Cooper]

You cannot be God and then claim to have one!

Trump was one, and now he has one. Trump is ONE, He never changes.
.

 

[Pierac]

Trump was one, and now he has one. Trump is ONE, He never changes.
.

You playing the Trump card???

 

[Behold]

But only one can be without a Beginning... God has no beginning! Yet Jesus is only referred to in time...

Thomas speaking to Jesus....>"My Lord and my God"

Jesus speaking...."I and my Father, are One".

John 1:1 says...."IN the Beginning was the Word and the word WAS God">. = Jesus is the "word made flesh"

1 Timothy 3:16 : says that "GOD was born of a virgin...(Manifested IN the FLESH".

John 1:10 : says that JESUS made the WORLD

Colossians 1:16 : says that JESUS made everything (creation) and its STILL held up by His power.

Jesus speaking...>"Before Abraham was born.....I AM". = "I AM" is God's reference to Himself when He spoke to Moses, from the burning bush"...... Jesus just told us He is : 'I Am".

 

[GRACE ambassador]

Thomas speaking to Jesus....>"My Lord and my God"

Jesus speaking...."I and my Father, are One".

John 1:1 says...."IN the Beginning was the Word and the word WAS God">. = Jesus is the "word made flesh"

1 Timothy 3:16 : says that "GOD was born of a virgin...(Manifested IN the FLESH".

John 1:10 : says that JESUS made the WORLD

Colossians 1:16 : says that JESUS made everything (creation) and its STILL held up by His power.

Jesus speaking...>"Before Abraham was born.....I AM". = "I AM" is God's reference to Himself when He spoke to Moses, from the burning bush"...... Jesus just told us He is : 'I Am".

Amen! Excellent!! And, a Whole Lot MORE:

"Complete Case" For JESUS Is Almighty God!

IF critics would only Prayerfully AND Carefully review God's Evidence!
Could make an Eternal difference for them, eh?

 

[tigger 2]

Behold wrote:

Thomas speaking to Jesus....>"My Lord and my God"

Jesus speaking...."I and my Father, are One".

John 1:1 says...."IN the Beginning was the Word and the word WAS God">. = Jesus is the "word made flesh"

1 Timothy 3:16 : says that "GOD was born of a virgin...(Manifested IN the FLESH".

John 1:10 : says that JESUS made the WORLD

Colossians 1:16 : says that JESUS made everything (creation) and its STILL held up by His power.

Jesus speaking...>"Before Abraham was born.....I AM". = "I AM" is God's reference to Himself when He spoke to Moses, from the burning bush"...... Jesus just told us He is : 'I Am".

..................................................
My replies are in brackets. The links are all to my personal studies.

Thomas speaking to Jesus....>"My Lord and my God"

[Thomas is not addressing Jesus as God here, but is praising the Father. - Examining the Trinity: MYGOD]

Jesus speaking...."I and my Father, are One".

[See John 17:22]

John 1:1 says...."IN the Beginning was the Word and the word WAS God">. = Jesus is the "word made flesh"

[An honest study of John’s use of NT Greek grammar proves that the trinitarian-favored translation is incorrect.] - my study of this scripture: Examining the Trinity: John 1:1c Primer - For Grammatical Rules That Supposedly "Prove" the Trinity]

1 Timothy 3:16 : says that "GOD was born of a virgin...(Manifested IN the FLESH".

[An examination of this scripture shows that “God” was added by a later copyist and originally read “he”. You have added “virgin.” - Examining the Trinity: 1 Tim. 3:16 God "manifest in the flesh" KJV ]

John 1:10 : says that JESUS made the WORLD

[The NT Greek says the world was made through (dia) him.]- Jn 1:10 - compare use of dia at John 1:17.]

Colossians 1:16 : says that JESUS made everything (creation) and its STILL held up by His power.

[It says all things have been created through [dia] him.]

Jesus speaking...>"Before Abraham was born.....I AM". = "I AM" is God's reference to Himself when He spoke to Moses, from the burning bush"...... Jesus just told us He is : 'I Am".

[God’s reference to Himself at Exodus 3:14 (the only place this has been applied to God) is ehyeh. This is properly translated as “I will be” (not “I am”) as are all other uses of ehyeh in Moses’ writings. In Exodus 3:15 God tells us his "name forever". This is the name found nearly 7000 times in the text, and even the error-filled KJV gets it right in Ps. 83:18.]

 

[Cooper]

You playing the Trump card???

I am saying Trump is One man and regardless of position, whether the president or not, he is the same person. This is the same as the unchanging God whether on earth or in heaven. They are both One, regardless of status, appearance, or residency.
.

 

[Pierac]

Yes, it is wonderful that God became flesh for our sakes because he was first over all creation, and don't you forget it.
.

That's the point!
God has no beginning or End! God can not be Born... As God has no beginning! Being first born over all creation proves that He did not exist until the creation came to be.

Paul