Understanding you do not go to Heaven or to Hell, when you die.

[Hobie]

Its clear in the Bible, you do not go to Heaven or to Hell, when you die, you lay in the grave and await the resurrection. Scripture says it plainly, you dont go to Hell or Heaven, you go back to dust in the grave, nothing more.

"19 By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return.” Genesis 3:19.

"21 Why then do you not pardon my transgression and take away my iniquity? For now I will lie down in the dust; And You will seek me, but I will not be." Job 7:21.

"10 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?..12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep." Job 14:10&12.

"17 The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence." Psalm 115:17.

"4 When his breath departs, he returns to the earth; on that very day his plans perish." Psalm 146:4.

"19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again." Ecclesiastes 3:19-20.

This tells us that what happens to man and what happens to the beasts is the same, as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts. They all go to one place, which is the same. All are from the dust, and to dust all return. Solomon decleares in Ecclesiastes:

"5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun." Ecclesiastes 9:5-6.

Over and over again the Bible says that the dead know nothing. These are only a few examples. The dead don’t think. They don’t praise the Lord. They have no consciousness. They return to the earth, as dust. The dead are in a completely unconscious state without thought or feeling, just as they would be if they were asleep.

Once people die, it’s like if they were to fall into a deep coma or sleep. They aren’t aware of anything at all, or passage of time in any form or communicating with those they left behind. If they return to dust as scripture says, its clear that the dead aren’t taken straight to Heaven, or to Hell for that matter. If they were with God as soon as they died, there would be no need for a Savior or Christs death at the cross. And if they went straight to Hell, there would be no need for the Second Death at the Lake of Fire as the scripture clearly shows us.

"15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." Revelation 20:15.

The wicked are not found in the book of life and only at the lake of fire at the end do they find their punishment.

"8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." Revelation 21:8.

Referring to death as a sleep is what we find throughout the Bible and when someone falls asleep, eventually they wake up again. So, what does it say in scripture as if the Bible describes death like a sleep, like something temporary, we can deduce that there must be some way to come back from death, to ‘“wake up,” as it were. But how does one “wake up” from death?

"14 And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just." Luke 14:14.

The idea of resurrection, of someone “waking up” from the dead, is throughout the Bible. Elijah and Elisha, through the power of God, raised people from the dead. Jesus did the same during his time on earth, bringing back a widow’s son, a young girl, and his dear friend Lazarus, proving that God’s power is greater than death. He can get us out of this first death, from this deep coma or sleep in the grave, to life everlasting.

"24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day." John 11:24.

Its called the resurrection of the just which scripture tells us will happen at the Second Coming for saints and Christ has the power and has promised to call us from the grave like Lazarus and take us to heaven to be with Him in His Heavenly Kingdom.

"15 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:" John 11:25.

We will be raised in the resurrection of the saints at the first resurrection, and the wicked will have to await the resurrection of damnation. No one goes to Heaven or Hell until these events at the very end at the Second Coming.

 

[Hobie]

Here is a great explanation and well put together understanding of this topic:
Premise

Traditionally most people believe that there is a ghost-like “spirit” inside of our bodies, and when we die, this spirit floats away somewhere, preferably heaven.

I will show that the Bible actually does not support this theory. In fact, according to the Bible there is no spirit inside of us at all. We exist only as mortal bodies, made from dust having been given the breath of life. And it is this “breath of life” that is confused with, or interpreted as, a “spirit”.


What Happens When We Die

Scripture says it plainly.

Genesis 3:19
By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return.”

Job 7:21
Why then do you not pardon my transgression and take away my iniquity? For now I will lie down in the dust; And You will seek me, but I will not be."

Job 14:10:12
But man dies and lies prostrate man expires, and where is he? "As water evaporates from the sea, and a river becomes parched and dried up, so man lies down and does not rise. Until the heavens are no longer, he will not awake nor be aroused out of his sleep.

Psalm 115:17
The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence.

Psalm 146:4
When his breath departs, he returns to the earth; on that very day his plans perish.

Ecclesiastes 3:19-20
For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity. All go to one place. All are from the dust, and to dust all return.

Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing

Over and over again the Bible says that the dead know nothing. These are only a few examples. The dead don’t think. They don’t praise the Lord. They have no consciousness. They return to the earth, as dust. Their plans perish and they cease to exist. Ecclesiastes 3 even tells us that man has no advantage over the beasts. All go to one place, which is dust.


Death Compared to Sleep

Psalms 13:3
Consider and answer me, O LORD my God; Enlighten my eyes, or I will sleep the sleep of death,

1 Kings 2:10
Then David slept with his fathers and was buried in the city of David.

When Lazarus died, Jesus said he was sleeping.

John 11:11-14
After he had said this, he went on to tell them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up.” 12 His disciples replied, “Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better.” 13 Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep. 14 So then he told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead".

Why would Jesus compare Lazarus’ death to “sleep” if Lazarus’ spirit has ascended into heaven? And why was there no mention of his spirit leaving his body?

Matthew 9:24
He said, "Leave; for the girl has not died, but is asleep." And they began laughing at Him.

Daniel 12:2
Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

Daniel was told he would “rest” until the resurrection.

Daniel 12:13
As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.”

If Daniel’s spirit was to go to heaven after death, then why was he told that he would rest? Why did the angel not say instead, I’ll see you in heaven soon, or something to that effect? It’s because Daniel wasn’t going to heaven. He was going to the dust of the earth. Daniel is now dead. He is not in heaven. He’s dead in the dust of the earth and on the day of the resurrection, he will rise, along with the rest of us.

 

[Hobie]

What Happens When we are Resurrected

The resurrection, as Paul describes it, actually also proves that we have no spirit in us that goes to heaven when we die.
Imagine if we did have a spirit. We would fly up to heaven and we would do whatever we do in heaven. Praise the Lord, play Frisbee, eat BBQ chicken. No matter how you envision an existence in heaven, it would require at the very least that we have a consciousness, a thought process and a free will to continue to make decisions. All of this would contradict the old testament verses above.

It would also contradict the new testament book of 1 Corinthians, because according to Paul this life in a spiritual body, which we imagine in heaven, does not come to us until the very last day, when we are resurrected.

1 Corinthians 15:42
So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

1 Corinthians 15:46
The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven.

Paul clearly states that we are created with a natural body, not a spiritual body. We will be transformed into a spiritual body upon the resurrection. “The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual”. In other words, when God created us, we were not given spiritual bodies, only natural bodies, but we would receive spiritual bodies later, upon the resurrection.

Our bodies are sewn natural, raised spiritual. This is the point of the resurrection, to make us spiritual so that we can be immortal. So if you believe that we already have immortal spirits that leave our bodies when we die, you have a conundrum.


The Spiritual Conundrum

Imagine the traditional teaching, where we have a spirit and we go to heaven as a spirit when we die. Then please tell me, what is the point of the resurrection?

If we are already in heaven, as immortal spirits, then why would we need to be transformed into spirits on the last day? If it is so, then when our bodies on earth are transformed into spirits, do we end up with two spirits? The one in heaven and the one on earth? Would both spirits have their own separate consciousness? Do our spirits in heaven then join our old bodies which have been transformed? Would we then be a spirit within a spirit? Two spirits? What nonsense!

If we’re being transformed into spirits, then we can not already be spirits, otherwise what would be the point? The point of the resurrection is to make us immortal. To make us spirits. This would be entirely nonsensical if we are already living as spirits in heaven, and this is how Paul’s description of the resurrection proves that we do not have a spirit inside of us that continues to live after death.


Soul (Nephesh)

To add to the confusion, in addition to the obvious body and the presumed spirit, we also supposedly possess a “soul”. What is a soul? You are a soul.

Genesis 2:7
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Notice in the verse above that man became a living soul. He was not given a soul. He became a soul. In other words, we do not have souls, we are souls.

The word soul in this verse was originally written in Hebrew as לְנֶ֥פֶשׁ which is transliterated as nephesh. Strong’s concordance defines nephesh as “a soul, living being, life, self, person, desire, passion, appetite, emotion”. With this definition in mind, the last part of Genesis 2:7 can be paraphrased as, for example “man became alive” or “man became an individual”. It is in fact the very moment when man gained his self awareness and free will.

The same word occurs 754 times in the old testament, so we can’t look at all examples but let’s look at one more.

Genesis 1:20
And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life (Nephesh), and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

Here the King James Bible translates it as “creature that hath life”. Remember, this is the same word that was translated as “soul” in Genesis 2:7. The more examples you look at the more obvious it becomes that when the word “soul” is used in scripture it refers simply to “a living creature”.

So keep in mind the true meaning of the word Nephesh, which can be translated as soul, living creature, person or individual, when you read verses such as…

Ezekiel 18:20
The soul who sins shall die.

The living creature who sins…

The person who sins…

The individual who sins…


The Spirit (Ruach)

On the flip side, there are a number of verses that can be used to support the notion that we all have a spirit inside of us that continues to live after the body dies. And at first glance, some of these verses are very convincing.

For example

Ecclesiastes 12:7
the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

2 Corinthians 5:8
Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

James 2:26
For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.

Obviously, the key to understanding such verses is understanding the meaning of “spirit”. As it turns out, in these examples, the word spirit refers to the breath of God, which is life.

Ecclesiastes 12:7
the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

This verse seems to imply that our spirit goes up to heaven when we die, but actually “spirit” here refers to the life that God breathed into man in Genesis 2:7. It’s the life that returns to God, because the life came from God.

Genesis 2:7
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

The word used through the old testament for spirit is the Hebrew word Ruach ר֫וּחַ, which can also be translated as “breath or wind”. In fact, this is how it is translated in various other verses including Genesis 7:15 and Psalm 104:29.

Genesis 7:15
15 And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.

Pairs of all creatures that have the breath of life (ruach) in them came to Noah and entered the ark.

Psalm 104:29
29 Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.

When you hide your face, they are terrified; when you take away their breath (ruach), they die and return to the dust.

When God gave man life, it was his breath/wind/spirit which God gave. The spirit of God is life. And it’s this spirit, this life, that returns to God in Ecclesiastes 12:7

Ecclesiastes 12:7
the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit (ruach – life / breath) returns to God who gave it.

Other verses clearly explain that it is the spirit of God, or the breath of God, that has given us life.

John 6:63 says The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you--they are full of the Spirit and life.

Job 33:4 says The spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.

The many Hebrew names of God in fact include the word Ruach each time.
English Name | Hebrew Name
The Spirit of God | Ruach Elohim
The Spirit of the Lord | Ruach Adonai
The Holy Spirit | Ruach Hakkodesh
The Spirit of the Lord God | Ruach Adonai Elohim
The Spirit of God | Ruach-El

Clearly, the word Ruach does not refer to a ghostly spirit that lives inside each of us, but rather the breath of life which came from God himself, and which is a part of God himself. Let’s look at the verse again.

Ecclesiastes 12:7
the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit (breath of life) returns to God who gave it.

And now compare that to the verse that describes man becoming a living creature.

Genesis 2:7
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

In other words, God gave his living spirit (Ruach) and man became a living soul (Nephesh).

 

[Hobie]

When Jesus Died

When this discussion of a spirit comes up people often point to references around Jesus’ death on the cross as proof that his “spirit” left him.

Luke 23:46
And when Jesus had cried out with a loud voice, He said, "Father, 'into Your hands I commit My spirit.'" Having said this, He breathed His last.

Matthew 27:50
And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.

John 19:30
So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.

I used to think, as most people do, that each reference to “spirit” in these verses referred to a conscious ghostly entity that left Jesus’ body and floated up to heaven (or hell, depending on who you ask) where Jesus continued to “live”. However, if we look at the original Greek word used we get an entirely different picture.

Remember, the Hebrew word translated as spirit in the old testament is Ruach and it means “breath” or “wind”. In the new testament the original text is Greek and in each of these three verses above, the word translated as spirit is the Greek word “Pneuma”. Pneuma means “wind, breath, spirit”. It has the exact same meaning as the Hebrew Ruach. Go figure.

Also remember that in Genesis 2:7 God created man and gave man the breath of life. That god given breath is not just a simple breath that we take for granted; it is life. So if we understand that the Greek meaning of the word “pneuma” is actually a reference to life itself which God breathed into us, these verses suddenly take on a whole new meaning.

Luke 23:46
And when Jesus had cried out with a loud voice, He said, "Father, 'into Your hands I commit My spirit life.'" Having said this, He breathed His last.

Matthew 27:50
And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit life.

John 19:30
So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit life.

Of course, looking back at it now, it seems so obvious that Jesus did not continue to live in spirit form after his death, because if that were the case he wouldn’t have really died. But he actually did die. He really died. The breath of life left him and he died.

There is literally no Bible verse that claims there is a ghostly spirit inside each of us that lives on after death. In fact, quite the opposite. All indications are that when we die, we return to the dust of the earth, without any consciousness, knowing nothing and realizing nothing. And it’s only at the resurrection, when the breath of God returns to us, that we become spiritual creatures.


Further Evidence

Acts 2:29
Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day”

Acts 2:34
For David is not ascended into the heavens

John 5:28-29
Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth

John 3:13
And no man has ascended up to heaven

Scripture is clear what happens....

 

[Hobie]

Now the Bible tells us what happens in the grave for the righteous saints and the sinners they lay there as dust, but also says what awaits them at the end.

Daniel 12:2
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, some to shame and everlasting contempt.

The word for sleep here is not the same as one sleeping in everyday use. yashen ( from 3462; sleepy: KJV-- asleep, (one out of) sleep slept.

What does sleep mean in this context? The Bible uses this term when speaking of death. The primary verses we find showing the dead have no thoughts or consciousness are:
Ecclesiastes 9:5-6, "For the living know they shall die: but the dead know not any thing," and Ecclesiastes 12:7, "then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it." Also Psalm 146:4, "His spirit departs, he returns to the earth; in that very day his thoughts perish". Or Psalm 115:17, "The dead do not praise the Lord, nor any who go down into silence" or Psalm 6:5 "For in death there is no remembrance of Thee; in the grave who shall give Thee thanks? And of course, there is Ezek. 18:4, "the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

And in the Old Testament we also find:

Genesis 3:19
In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. upward, and the spirit of the animal, which goes down to the earth?"

1 Samuel 3:3 Samuel was laid down to sleep;

1 Samuel 28:3 Now SAMUEL was DEAD, and all Israel had lamented him, and BURIED HIM in RAMAH,

and also what is happening when we are dead:

Deuteronomy 31:16 - And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.

2 Samuel 7:12
And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.

Job 7:21
And why dost thou not pardon my transgression, and take away my iniquity? for now shall I sleep in the dust; and thou shalt seek me in the morning, but I shall not be.

1 Kings 1:21
Otherwise it shall come to pass, when my lord the king shall sleep with his fathers, that I and my son Solomon shall be counted offenders.

Job 7:21
And why dost thou not pardon my transgression, and take away my iniquity? for now shall I sleep in the dust; and thou shalt seek me in the morning, but I shall not be.

Psalms 13:3
Consider and hear me, O LORD my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death;

Psalms 30:9
What will you gain from my death? What profit from my going to the grave? Are dead people able to praise you? Can they proclaim your unfailing goodness?

Psalms 76:6
At thy rebuke, O God of Jacob, both the chariot and horse are cast into a dead sleep.

Isaiah 57:2
Those who live good lives find peace and rest in death.

Jeremiah 51:39
In their heat I will make their feasts, and I will make them drunken, that they may rejoice, and sleep a perpetual sleep, and not wake, saith the LORD.

Jeremiah 51:57
And I will make drunk her princes, and her wise men, her captains, and her rulers, and her mighty men: and they shall sleep a perpetual sleep, and not wake, saith the King, whose name is the LORD of hosts.

Daniel 12:2
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.


In the New Testament we see
Matthew 9:24
He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn.

Matthew 27:52-53
And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Mark 5:39
And when he was come in, he saith unto them, Why make ye this ado, and weep? the damsel is not dead, but sleepeth.

Luke 8:52
And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth.

John 11:11-14
These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

Acts 7:59 -60
And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

Acts 13:36
For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:

Ephesians 5:14
Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

1 Corinthians 11:30
For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

1 Corinthians 15:6
After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

1 Corinthians 15:18
Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

1 Corinthians 15:20
But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

1 Corinthians 15:51
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

1 Thessalonians 4:13
But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

1 Thessalonians 4:14
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1 Thessalonians 4:15
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

2 Peter 3:4
And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

And when we will come out of the grave, it is at the resurrection, not when we die.

John 11:24
Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

Acts 4:2
Being grieved that they taught the people, and preached through Jesus the resurrection from the dead.

And what Christ himself tells us will happen to those who have died, the resurrection of the just, and the resurrection of damnation for the wicked.

Luke 14:14
And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.

John 5:29
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

These text clearly show we stay in the grave with no thoughts, and clearly do not go straight to heaven or float in spirit bodies and dwell Gods presence, to say nothing of the wicked who will stay in the grave till the lake of fire.

 

[FaithWillDo]

Here is a great explanation and well put together understanding of this topic:
Premise

Traditionally most people believe that there is a ghost-like “spirit” inside of our bodies, and when we die, this spirit floats away somewhere, preferably heaven.

I will show that the Bible actually does not support this theory. In fact, according to the Bible there is no spirit inside of us at all. We exist only as mortal bodies, made from dust having been given the breath of life. And it is this “breath of life” that is confused with, or interpreted as, a “spirit”.


What Happens When We Die

Scripture says it plainly.

Genesis 3:19
By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return.”

Job 7:21
Why then do you not pardon my transgression and take away my iniquity? For now I will lie down in the dust; And You will seek me, but I will not be."

Job 14:10:12
But man dies and lies prostrate man expires, and where is he? "As water evaporates from the sea, and a river becomes parched and dried up, so man lies down and does not rise. Until the heavens are no longer, he will not awake nor be aroused out of his sleep.

Psalm 115:17
The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence.

Psalm 146:4
When his breath departs, he returns to the earth; on that very day his plans perish.

Ecclesiastes 3:19-20
For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity. All go to one place. All are from the dust, and to dust all return.

Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing

Over and over again the Bible says that the dead know nothing. These are only a few examples. The dead don’t think. They don’t praise the Lord. They have no consciousness. They return to the earth, as dust. Their plans perish and they cease to exist. Ecclesiastes 3 even tells us that man has no advantage over the beasts. All go to one place, which is dust.


Death Compared to Sleep

Psalms 13:3
Consider and answer me, O LORD my God; Enlighten my eyes, or I will sleep the sleep of death,

1 Kings 2:10
Then David slept with his fathers and was buried in the city of David.

When Lazarus died, Jesus said he was sleeping.

John 11:11-14
After he had said this, he went on to tell them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up.” 12 His disciples replied, “Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better.” 13 Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep. 14 So then he told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead".

Why would Jesus compare Lazarus’ death to “sleep” if Lazarus’ spirit has ascended into heaven? And why was there no mention of his spirit leaving his body?

Matthew 9:24
He said, "Leave; for the girl has not died, but is asleep." And they began laughing at Him.

Daniel 12:2
Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

Daniel was told he would “rest” until the resurrection.

Daniel 12:13
As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.”

If Daniel’s spirit was to go to heaven after death, then why was he told that he would rest? Why did the angel not say instead, I’ll see you in heaven soon, or something to that effect? It’s because Daniel wasn’t going to heaven. He was going to the dust of the earth. Daniel is now dead. He is not in heaven. He’s dead in the dust of the earth and on the day of the resurrection, he will rise, along with the rest of us.

Dear Hobie,
I agree with most of what you stated in this post.

I agree that when a person dies, they are actually dead. I've been to many funerals where the speaker would say that the deceased person is "in the arms of Jesus" or "up in heaven looking down at us". These statements probably give the loved ones comfort, but they are completely untrue. In First Thessalonians chapter 4, Paul said that our comfort comes from having the knowledge of the coming resurrection from the grave. If those who died in Christ were alive in heaven, Paul would have mentioned that truth to the Thessalonians - but he didn't.

Also, I agree that when Christ died on the cross, He was dead and remained so until the Father resurrected Him three days later. Unlike what most churches teach, Christ actually did die for the sins of the world.

I do disagree with your understanding of the First Resurrection though. The First Resurrection is the conversion event. It is spiritual and happens within the person. It is the person's moment of salvation. The First Resurrection is NOT the bodily resurrection from the grave which occurs at the literal end of this age.

The First Resurrection occurs when Christ "comes again" (the second coming) to a believer who has been espoused (Early Rain) to Christ. When Christ returns, He gives the believer the baptism of the Holy Spirit (Latter Rain) and the baptism of Fire (judgment). This is when a believer is "born again" and is when the new child of God is gathered up to heaven (spiritually speaking). In this instance, heaven represents a person's spiritual state of being. Unbelievers are said to dwell in the "sea", carnal unconverted believers (Early Rain only) are said to dwell upon the "earth" and the children of God are said to dwell in "heaven". These terms do not represent physical locations.

Good work on presenting the scriptures which teach about the state of death.

Joe

 

[Randy Kluth]

Its clear in the Bible, you do not go to Heaven or to Hell, when you die, you lay in the grave and await the resurrection.

It's "clear" that that's what you want to do--not that it's a teaching in the Bible. Paul said that when we die we are present with the Lord. Our bodies are in the grave, but our spirits go to be with the Lord. That's "clear" to me!

Scripture says it plainly, you dont go to Hell or Heaven, you go back to dust in the grave, nothing more.

That's talking about our *bodies!* It's talking about the temporality of life, how everything we strive to get dies in the grave.

"8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." Revelation 21:8.

This is the final judgment, to be *excluded* from the Paradise of New Jerusalem on the New Earth. These are the wicked who die, whose spirits are banned from the presence of the Lord, who will live in Outer Darkness.

"Clearly," we are disagreed. But we can still have a good day.

 

[marks]

Considering that we are already in the heavenly realm with Jesus, why would that change because our terrestrial state changes?

Ephesians 2:4-7 KJV
4) But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5) Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
6) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7) That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

Colossians 3:1-4 KJV
1) If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2) Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3) For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4) When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

Much love!

 

[Writer]

"Today, you will be in paradise with me" Jesus says

 

[Bob Estey]

Its clear in the Bible, you do not go to Heaven or to Hell, when you die, you lay in the grave and await the resurrection. Scripture says it plainly, you dont go to Hell or Heaven, you go back to dust in the grave, nothing more.

"19 By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return.” Genesis 3:19.

"21 Why then do you not pardon my transgression and take away my iniquity? For now I will lie down in the dust; And You will seek me, but I will not be." Job 7:21.

"10 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?..12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep." Job 14:10&12.

"17 The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence." Psalm 115:17.

"4 When his breath departs, he returns to the earth; on that very day his plans perish." Psalm 146:4.

"19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again." Ecclesiastes 3:19-20.

This tells us that what happens to man and what happens to the beasts is the same, as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts. They all go to one place, which is the same. All are from the dust, and to dust all return. Solomon decleares in Ecclesiastes:

"5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun." Ecclesiastes 9:5-6.

Over and over again the Bible says that the dead know nothing. These are only a few examples. The dead don’t think. They don’t praise the Lord. They have no consciousness. They return to the earth, as dust. The dead are in a completely unconscious state without thought or feeling, just as they would be if they were asleep.

Once people die, it’s like if they were to fall into a deep coma or sleep. They aren’t aware of anything at all, or passage of time in any form or communicating with those they left behind. If they return to dust as scripture says, its clear that the dead aren’t taken straight to Heaven, or to Hell for that matter. If they were with God as soon as they died, there would be no need for a Savior or Christs death at the cross. And if they went straight to Hell, there would be no need for the Second Death at the Lake of Fire as the scripture clearly shows us.

"15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." Revelation 20:15.

The wicked are not found in the book of life and only at the lake of fire at the end do they find their punishment.

"8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." Revelation 21:8.

Referring to death as a sleep is what we find throughout the Bible and when someone falls asleep, eventually they wake up again. So, what does it say in scripture as if the Bible describes death like a sleep, like something temporary, we can deduce that there must be some way to come back from death, to ‘“wake up,” as it were. But how does one “wake up” from death?

"14 And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just." Luke 14:14.

The idea of resurrection, of someone “waking up” from the dead, is throughout the Bible. Elijah and Elisha, through the power of God, raised people from the dead. Jesus did the same during his time on earth, bringing back a widow’s son, a young girl, and his dear friend Lazarus, proving that God’s power is greater than death. He can get us out of this first death, from this deep coma or sleep in the grave, to life everlasting.

"24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day." John 11:24.

Its called the resurrection of the just which scripture tells us will happen at the Second Coming for saints and Christ has the power and has promised to call us from the grave like Lazarus and take us to heaven to be with Him in His Heavenly Kingdom.

"15 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:" John 11:25.

We will be raised in the resurrection of the saints at the first resurrection, and the wicked will have to await the resurrection of damnation. No one goes to Heaven or Hell until these events at the very end at the Second Coming.

I believe hell is the unpleasant results of our sin. For example, if I rob a bank, I go to prison.

 

[DJT_47]

Its clear in the Bible, you do not go to Heaven or to Hell, when you die, you lay in the grave and await the resurrection. Scripture says it plainly, you dont go to Hell or Heaven, you go back to dust in the grave, nothing more.

"19 By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return.” Genesis 3:19.

"21 Why then do you not pardon my transgression and take away my iniquity? For now I will lie down in the dust; And You will seek me, but I will not be." Job 7:21.

"10 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?..12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep." Job 14:10&12.

"17 The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence." Psalm 115:17.

"4 When his breath departs, he returns to the earth; on that very day his plans perish." Psalm 146:4.

"19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again." Ecclesiastes 3:19-20.

This tells us that what happens to man and what happens to the beasts is the same, as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts. They all go to one place, which is the same. All are from the dust, and to dust all return. Solomon decleares in Ecclesiastes:

"5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun." Ecclesiastes 9:5-6.

Over and over again the Bible says that the dead know nothing. These are only a few examples. The dead don’t think. They don’t praise the Lord. They have no consciousness. They return to the earth, as dust. The dead are in a completely unconscious state without thought or feeling, just as they would be if they were asleep.

Once people die, it’s like if they were to fall into a deep coma or sleep. They aren’t aware of anything at all, or passage of time in any form or communicating with those they left behind. If they return to dust as scripture says, its clear that the dead aren’t taken straight to Heaven, or to Hell for that matter. If they were with God as soon as they died, there would be no need for a Savior or Christs death at the cross. And if they went straight to Hell, there would be no need for the Second Death at the Lake of Fire as the scripture clearly shows us.

"15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." Revelation 20:15.

The wicked are not found in the book of life and only at the lake of fire at the end do they find their punishment.

"8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." Revelation 21:8.

Referring to death as a sleep is what we find throughout the Bible and when someone falls asleep, eventually they wake up again. So, what does it say in scripture as if the Bible describes death like a sleep, like something temporary, we can deduce that there must be some way to come back from death, to ‘“wake up,” as it were. But how does one “wake up” from death?

"14 And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just." Luke 14:14.

The idea of resurrection, of someone “waking up” from the dead, is throughout the Bible. Elijah and Elisha, through the power of God, raised people from the dead. Jesus did the same during his time on earth, bringing back a widow’s son, a young girl, and his dear friend Lazarus, proving that God’s power is greater than death. He can get us out of this first death, from this deep coma or sleep in the grave, to life everlasting.

"24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day." John 11:24.

Its called the resurrection of the just which scripture tells us will happen at the Second Coming for saints and Christ has the power and has promised to call us from the grave like Lazarus and take us to heaven to be with Him in His Heavenly Kingdom.

"15 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:" John 11:25.

We will be raised in the resurrection of the saints at the first resurrection, and the wicked will have to await the resurrection of damnation. No one goes to Heaven or Hell until these events at the very end at the Second Coming.

Two issues to consider in this regard: 1. The story of Lazarus and the rich man and 2. The promise to the thief on the cross made by Jesus.

The rich man, immediately upon his death, opened his eyes being in torments in the flames of hell (Luke 16). And in example 2, the thief was told he would be with Jesus in paradise (the third heaven) that very day (Luke 23)

 

[Hobie]

Dear Hobie,
I agree with most of what you stated in this post.

I agree that when a person dies, they are actually dead. I've been to many funerals where the speaker would say that the deceased person is "in the arms of Jesus" or "up in heaven looking down at us". These statements probably give the loved ones comfort, but they are completely untrue. In First Thessalonians chapter 4, Paul said that our comfort comes from having the knowledge of the coming resurrection from the grave. If those who died in Christ were alive in heaven, Paul would have mentioned that truth to the Thessalonians - but he didn't.

Also, I agree that when Christ died on the cross, He was dead and remained so until the Father resurrected Him three days later. Unlike what most churches teach, Christ actually did die for the sins of the world.

I do disagree with your understanding of the First Resurrection though. The First Resurrection is the conversion event. It is spiritual and happens within the person. It is the person's moment of salvation. The First Resurrection is NOT the bodily resurrection from the grave which occurs at the literal end of this age.

The First Resurrection occurs when Christ "comes again" (the second coming) to a believer who has been espoused (Early Rain) to Christ. When Christ returns, He gives the believer the baptism of the Holy Spirit (Latter Rain) and the baptism of Fire (judgment). This is when a believer is "born again" and is when the new child of God is gathered up to heaven (spiritually speaking). In this instance, heaven represents a person's spiritual state of being. Unbelievers are said to dwell in the "sea", carnal unconverted believers (Early Rain only) are said to dwell upon the "earth" and the children of God are said to dwell in "heaven". These terms do not represent physical locations.

Good work on presenting the scriptures which teach about the state of death.

Joe

Well, lets look at the first resurrection to understand who is in it and those who are left to the other or second resurrection of the wicked or damnation as scripture says. So scripture shows there are two resurrections, One of the righteous saints who Christ raises up at the Second Coming and takes with him to heaven, and Revelation 20:4 says 'and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years'. But as for the wicked, Revelation 20:5 says after the first resurrection, "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished." (Revelation 20:5)

The wicked are slain from the Second Coming, but after the thousand years Christ brings the New Jerusalem down, the other or second resurrection of the wicked occurs as we see in Revelation 20:7-8 that Satan now has people he will deceive again. "And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, and shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth". (Rev 20:7-8) Although not explicitly stated, it is obvious the unrighteous dead were resurrected after the 1000 years ended. Revelation 20:6 clues us in with, "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection". (Rev 20:6) Specifying the "first" resurrection implies a second resurrection, so this is the one Christ spoke about and made clear who it was for...
John 5:29
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

And Christ also says which is the one that is blessed...
Luke 14:14
And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.

And we see the same in Revelation, the one that is blessed..
Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

And so the first resurrection is of the saints not the wicked as the verses make clear, and only after the 1000 years do you get the 'resurrection of damnation' or of the wicked in which Revelation 20:15 says those not found "in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." Take a careful look at Revelation 20 and it you can see the events of the first and the other/second resurrection.

Revelation 20 King James Version (KJV)
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[Hobie]

Now looking more closely of the evidence from the resurrection of Christ after He lay in tomb, we see that Christ did not go to heaven when He died but not until after the resurrection.

John 20:16-17
16 Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

So we can see that Jesus did not go to Paradise after His death that day either, as He was buried and remained in the tomb until His resurrection. The day of His resurrection He appeared to Mary, stating that He had “not yet ascended to My Father” but that now He was ascending to "My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God”. So what is in the text with the thief on the cross has punctuation that was not given in the original.
Luke 23:43
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

The obvious implication is that He could not have promised the thief that He would be with him in Paradise on Friday. and Jesus and the thief did not die at the same time as Jesus died Friday and the thief was still alive, and his legs were broken to keep him from escaping as it usually took several days for those who were crucified to die.

And we see Jesus taken up into Heaven..
Acts 1:6-10
6 Then they gathered around him and asked him, 'Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?'
7 He said to them: 'It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority.
8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.'
9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.
10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11 'Men of Galilee,' they said, 'why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.'

Jesus ascended literally, bodily, in full view of His disciples and followers. As they watched Him go up, two angels appeared and said He would come back "in like manner" as He went up.

So it will be with man, he dies when the breath is no longer in him and lays in the tomb, no one goes up to Heaven or down to Hades or Hell. The Greek Hades means basically the same as Hebrew Sheol, the grave. The word Hades does not refer to any Biblical doctrine. Actually Hades is a reference to the Greek mythical god of the dead and king of the underworld, so the word is referring to what the Greek idea was, not a place. It shows more of the misapplication of nomenclature and Hell is also misapplied. Lets look at is use in a reference to Christ in Acts 2:27..

Acts 2:27
Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

In the passage quoted from David, the King of Israel was properly referring to Sheol. It is simply a reference to the grave. That's it and that's all.
Many modern translations of scripture have correctly applied the word Sheol instead of references to Hell or the Greek mythical entity of Hades.

The same is true for Hell which is derived from the old English word 'Hel' (mythological being) which also referred to the underworld and for 'Gehenna' which is a reference to the Jerusalem city dump in Jesus' day. Neither word correctly refers to the afterlife, the underworld or final judgment. It was, one could say more of a mistranslation in the attempt to translate original Greek & Hebrew text into a common language

No part of mankind survives physical death, he turns to dust and lays thus in the grave . We are even given a comparison to what befalls man in Ecclesiastes 3:19...
Ecclesiastes 3:19
For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.

The usage of Greek caused a lot of the confusion we see today as the Greeks had different words for the grave which they called the underworld, so the problem. Where in the Hebrew text it teaches that when people die they go to Sheol, the grave, or Gehenna which is the consuming by fire of the wicked, when the grave or the eternal oblivion of the wicked was translated into Greek, the word Hades was many times used, which is a term for the realm of the dead. However, the meaning depending on context was the grave, death, or the end of the wicked in which they are ultimately destroyed in the specific way in which scripture shows at the end, which is a consuming fire which destroys them for eternity, the "The lake of fire" at the end.

So we can see where the grave or death or eventual destruction of the wicked, when translated using Greek words became a mix of mistranslation, pagan influence, and Greek myth associated with Greek word, but its original meaning was basically the grave, death or the destruction of the wicked at the end in the "lake of fire". "Hades" was simply the word closest in meaning to the Hebrew "Sheol".

Now there is absolutely no reference in the Bible to the Wicked being granted eternal life. The only mention of eternal life in the Bible is made for the righteous saints, those who love and fear God, the justified believer. God will judge who is worthy to receive eternal life, the righteous saints, and then the saints will be raised and come up at the first resurrection to go to heaven, and after the 1000 years the wicked will then be raided and come up in the second resurrection to meet their fate. Christ makes it clear in John 5:28-29...

"28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." John 5:28-29.

Those "who have done good" are raised to life when Christ returns at the Second Coming. Scripture calls it “the first resurrection” in the book of Revelation when it says:

“Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years” Revelation 20:6.

God raises the righteous dead so that He can take them to heaven together with the righteous who will be alive when Jesus comes. Paul describes it to the Thessalonians when he says:

“16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord” 1 Thessalonians 4: 16-17.

And when they have been raised, they’ll receive perfect bodies that can live for eternity with God and we will never die again. This will be the fulfillment of Jesus’ promise to come and take His saints to the place where He went to prepare for them in heaven in John 14:1-3...

"Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also." John 14:1-3.

The saints will finally receive their reward of eternal life John 3:16....

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16.

 

[Hobie]

Now, lets see what scripture says about if the dead can communicate with the living or return to their house to haunt it.

We have seen that the dead know nothing...

"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten." Ecclesiastes 9:5.

And that upon death the "thoughts perish"...

"His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish." Psalm 146:4.

And clearly God, upon penalty of death, denounced the consulting of mediums or communication with the dead. (Exodus 22:18;

"Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the Lord your God." Leviticus 19:31.

"A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them." Leviticus 20:27

"Moreover the workers with familiar spirits, and the wizards, and the images, and the idols, and all the abominations that were spied in the land of Judah and in Jerusalem, did Josiah put away, that he might perform the words of the law which were written in the book that Hilkiah the priest found in the house of the Lord." 2 Kings 23:24 and many others. God has clearly defined the means of communication with Him and it is not through "abominations". He communicates through His Word, and through His prophets.

If the spirits that are called up by mediums or channelers are not the spirits of the dead, then they must be spirits of demons who would deceive man and rob him of salvation. God admonishes through the prophet Isaiah...
"And when they say to you, 'Seek those who are mediums and wizards, who whisper and mutter, should not a people seek their God? Should they seek the dead on behalf of the living?" Isaiah 8:19

Now the passage 1 Samuel 28:3-25 where Saul consults the medium at Endor who supposedly calls up Samuel to advise the King. The King had been troubled by spirits himself, and had through his own actions severed his connection with God and left cut off....

"And when Saul enquired of the Lord, the Lord answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets." 1 Samuel 28:6

Saul, however, went against what God had said, and went basically to the witch and she brought up "gods ascending out of the earth" (demons) to advise him. In verse 14, he asks the medium "what form is he of?" indicating that he did not see Samuel himself. Moreover, the spirit taunted Saul by telling him that his crown would go to his rival. The messages of the spirit did not require visionary powers. David had already been anointed, and Israel had not humbled itself before the Lord, making it more than likely that they would be defeated by the Philistines. As the dead are in a state of unconsciousness, it is evident that the spirit of Samuel did not communicate with Saul. According to the Scriptures, Satan can communicate with man and present himself as an angel of light. We see it in Matthew 4:1-11 when Christ is accosted by the devil in the wilderness and we see it in other verses..

"For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ."2 Corinthians 11:13
"Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times, some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons." 1 Timothy 4:1.

Now as for Lazarus and the "bosom of Abraham", it was just a parable. Lazarus and the Rich man was the last parable out of 5 he told that day. Starting in Luke 15:1 Jesus tells the following parables if you look, and remember the Bible was written without chapters...The parable of the Lost Sheep, the parable of the Lost Coin, the parable of the Lost Son, the parable of the Shrewd Manager, and the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man. Even the NIV translation defines this story as being a parable, thus not to be taken literally. Josephus writes on this idea and shows the pagan Hellenistic ideas were being picked up by the Jews by this time, as he believed that the dead went either to heaven or to hell, whilst they awaited the resurrection. The righteous were assigned to a place which was called the "bosom of Abraham", whilst the wicked were separated from them by a deep chasm and were confined to a place where they could hear and see the fires of hell. These views are inconsistent with the clear teachings of Scriptures that the "dead know not anything".

The confusion caused by the doctrines of hades, hell and purgatory we find today, are of pagan origin and because of the Greek language that was used. The concept of purgatory or the purification process has been in existence since the ancient times in paganism, if one looks more than a cursory glance. This idea came into the church from the Greek idea of Hades especially with the use of Greek text and we can see how they came in from the Greek Hellenistic ideas. However, it is not borne out by scripture.

 

[BlessedPeace]

Its clear in the Bible, you do not go to Heaven or to Hell, when you die, you lay in the grave and await the resurrection. Scripture says it plainly, you dont go to Hell or Heaven, you go back to dust in the grave, nothing more.

"19 By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return.” Genesis 3:19.

"21 Why then do you not pardon my transgression and take away my iniquity? For now I will lie down in the dust; And You will seek me, but I will not be." Job 7:21.

"10 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?..12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep." Job 14:10&12.

"17 The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence." Psalm 115:17.

"4 When his breath departs, he returns to the earth; on that very day his plans perish." Psalm 146:4.

"19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again." Ecclesiastes 3:19-20.

This tells us that what happens to man and what happens to the beasts is the same, as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts. They all go to one place, which is the same. All are from the dust, and to dust all return. Solomon decleares in Ecclesiastes:

"5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun." Ecclesiastes 9:5-6.

Over and over again the Bible says that the dead know nothing. These are only a few examples. The dead don’t think. They don’t praise the Lord. They have no consciousness. They return to the earth, as dust. The dead are in a completely unconscious state without thought or feeling, just as they would be if they were asleep.

Once people die, it’s like if they were to fall into a deep coma or sleep. They aren’t aware of anything at all, or passage of time in any form or communicating with those they left behind. If they return to dust as scripture says, its clear that the dead aren’t taken straight to Heaven, or to Hell for that matter. If they were with God as soon as they died, there would be no need for a Savior or Christs death at the cross. And if they went straight to Hell, there would be no need for the Second Death at the Lake of Fire as the scripture clearly shows us.

"15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." Revelation 20:15.

The wicked are not found in the book of life and only at the lake of fire at the end do they find their punishment.

"8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." Revelation 21:8.

Referring to death as a sleep is what we find throughout the Bible and when someone falls asleep, eventually they wake up again. So, what does it say in scripture as if the Bible describes death like a sleep, like something temporary, we can deduce that there must be some way to come back from death, to ‘“wake up,” as it were. But how does one “wake up” from death?

"14 And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just." Luke 14:14.

The idea of resurrection, of someone “waking up” from the dead, is throughout the Bible. Elijah and Elisha, through the power of God, raised people from the dead. Jesus did the same during his time on earth, bringing back a widow’s son, a young girl, and his dear friend Lazarus, proving that God’s power is greater than death. He can get us out of this first death, from this deep coma or sleep in the grave, to life everlasting.

"24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day." John 11:24.

Its called the resurrection of the just which scripture tells us will happen at the Second Coming for saints and Christ has the power and has promised to call us from the grave like Lazarus and take us to heaven to be with Him in His Heavenly Kingdom.

"15 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:" John 11:25.

We will be raised in the resurrection of the saints at the first resurrection, and the wicked will have to await the resurrection of damnation. No one goes to Heaven or Hell until these events at the very end at the Second Coming.

True. The dead but sleep. Lazarus was our example of that.

Even as a child it never made sense that my grandparents were thought to have died and gone to Heaven,only to be brought back to earth later?

Bummer switch of zip codes duuude!

 

[FaithWillDo]

Well, lets look at the first resurrection to understand who is in it and those who are left to the other or second resurrection of the wicked or damnation as scripture says. So scripture shows there are two resurrections, One of the righteous saints who Christ raises up at the Second Coming and takes with him to heaven, and Revelation 20:4 says 'and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years'. But as for the wicked, Revelation 20:5 says after the first resurrection, "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished." (Revelation 20:5)

The wicked are slain from the Second Coming, but after the thousand years Christ brings the New Jerusalem down, the other or second resurrection of the wicked occurs as we see in Revelation 20:7-8 that Satan now has people he will deceive again. "And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, and shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth". (Rev 20:7-8) Although not explicitly stated, it is obvious the unrighteous dead were resurrected after the 1000 years ended. Revelation 20:6 clues us in with, "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection". (Rev 20:6) Specifying the "first" resurrection implies a second resurrection, so this is the one Christ spoke about and made clear who it was for...
John 5:29
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

And Christ also says which is the one that is blessed...
Luke 14:14
And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.

And we see the same in Revelation, the one that is blessed..
Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

And so the first resurrection is of the saints not the wicked as the verses make clear, and only after the 1000 years do you get the 'resurrection of damnation' or of the wicked in which Revelation 20:15 says those not found "in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." Take a careful look at Revelation 20 and it you can see the events of the first and the other/second resurrection.

Dear Hobie,
You said:
One of the righteous saints who Christ raises up at the Second Coming and takes with him to heaven, and Revelation 20:4 says 'and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years'. But as for the wicked, Revelation 20:5 says after the first resurrection, "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished." (Revelation 20:5)

Scripture only teaches that there is ONE bodily resurrection from the grave. It is described below:

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Notice that the above scripture says that there is an "hour" (a single moment) coming in which "all that are in the graves shall hear his voice". At that time, everyone will be resurrected and will appear before Christ at the White Throne. Christ will then separate everyone into two groups: sheep and goats. The sheep will receive the "resurrection of life" and the goats will receive the "resurrection of damnation".

Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world........41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: ..........46 And these shall go away into age-during punishment: but the righteous into age-during life.

The event described above is the same event described in Rev 20:11-15. The goats are cast into the Lake of Fire. The sheep are presented at the start of chapter 21. The sheep are the Elect and are also called the New Jerusalem/Bride of Christ. Their reward as "heirs" is to have life during the ages and to reign with Christ.

As I said earlier, the First Resurrection is the spiritual resurrection which happens when an Elect believer is converted. The Elect's conversion is presented in Revelation chapter 19. The First Resurrection is not the bodily resurrection from the grave.

After an Elect believer experiences the First Resurrection, they will never die again. This is what Christ is teaching here:

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

In the scripture above, Christ is teaching about the First Resurrection. After a person is converted (liveth and believeth in me), they will never spiritually die again. However, they will still physically die and that is why the bodily resurrection from the grave is necessary.

As for the thousand years, Peter says it is like a "day" (2Pet 3:8). Peter then goes on in the rest of the chapter to describe what happens during the Day of the Lord.

Also, the thousand years applies only to the Elect. Instead of being judged, the Elect will reign with Christ during the Day of the Lord. And as this verse says, the thousand years is "twice told":

Ecc 6:6 Yea, though he live a thousand years twice told, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place?

During this time of judgment, the Elect will see "no good" and all who are judged will go to one place (the Lake of Fire). The thousand years is twice told because the Elect will reign with Christ over their own judgment and then over the judgment of rest of mankind.

The last half of Revelation chapter 19 shows when the Elect will reign with Christ over their own judgment during the conversion process. After the thousand years is finished, the believer will be converted.

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years (judgment of the Elect) were finished. This is the first resurrection.

The "rest of the dead" (the rest of mankind) will not live again (be saved) until after all the Elect have been saved in this age. In other words, the Elect are harvested early and are the First Fruits of Christ's harvest of mankind.

Now read verse 6:

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years (judgment of the rest of mankind).

After the goats are judged in the final age (after the second "thousand years" is finished), they, too, will be converted into children of God. However, they will suffer the loss of not having life during the ages plus during their time of judgment, they will experience wrath.

1Cor 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward (life during the ages, reign with Christ). 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire (the Lake of Fire).

Joe

 

[Runningman]

Its clear in the Bible, you do not go to Heaven or to Hell, when you die, you lay in the grave and await the resurrection. Scripture says it plainly, you dont go to Hell or Heaven, you go back to dust in the grave, nothing more.

Then the same thing applies to Jesus. Jesus was not saved from a physical death, but resurrected from the death of his soul.

Hebrews 5
7During the days of Jesus’ earthly life, He offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the One who could save Him from death, and He was heard because of His reverence.

 

[Phoneman777]

It's "clear" that that's what you want to do--not that it's a teaching in the Bible. Paul said that when we die we are present with the Lord.

You see, the false doctrines are so ingrained by repetition that Christians forget that "words mean things".

What Paul said is he was willing to be present with the Lord, just as one might say he's willing to be rich. Being willing for a thing is not the same as experiencing that thing.

On Sunday at noon, Christians are "willing to be absent from the church pew and to be present at the Cracker Barrel" - but is a willingness to be there eliminate having to drive from church to the restaurant?

Likewise, Paul's willingness to be "present with the Lord" doesn't eliminate his (and our) need to lie "naked" and "unclothed" without a body, in the grave, dead, awaiting the Resurrection of the Just, which only at that time will Paul indeed be "present with the Lord".

 

[Phil .]

Death is just a secondary belief.

 

[O'Darby]

The problem is, there is a VAST and compelling body of evidence, in the form of Near Death Experiences, After Death Communications, apparitions, mediumistic communications and other well-established and well-documented phenomena, suggesting that consciousness persists after death. Christians, atheists and every other species of believer and nonbeliever experience these phenomena. Is it all delusional or demonic? I've had convincing and compelling ADCs involving my late father, mother, wife, sister-in-law, housekeeper and others. Some of them were entirely objective. This is the problem, at least as I see it, with thinking the Bible alone defines reality. When the Bible bumps up against experience, one is forced to live in a state of cognitive dissonance or chalk up the experience to something like "demonic deception." It's a weird way to try to live, IMO. I accept both the Bible and experience and try to make a rational peace with both that doesn't require me to live in a state of cognitive dissonance or deny the reality I experience.