Understanding you do not go to Heaven or to Hell, when you die.

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Hobie

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Hobie, are you also including yourself in this statement, because you also present ideas and statements that are not in the pages of the bible but are the ideas and traditions of men.
That's why you have to go by what scripture says, and the whole Bible so you get the full picture, and I gave texts for it. But if you need more we can search the scriptures together..
 

Jay Ross

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That's why you have to go by what scripture says, and the whole Bible so you get the full picture, and I gave texts for it. But if you need more we can search the scriptures together..

But I know that you disregard the scriptures because the texts that you have used to justify your understanding by the way you have interpretated those scriptures does not jell with me at all. Yes, we can see people groups, nations kingdoms and empires manifesting the respective four beasts dominate characteristics, but the five beasts are wicked heavenly hosts whose influences ebb and flow through different people groups, kingdoms, nations and empires since the time of Daniel up to this present time, but the number of people groups, nations, kingdoms and empires has not been limited to just four distinct people groups, nations, kingdoms and empires as your rhetoric suggests.

The rhetoric of the reformation fathers was to discredit the RCC and the Papacy and they wrongly linked Daniel 2 with Daniel 7 where their understanding that the land of Babylon would be devastated and desolated for a period of two ages and was only remembered once more historically in 1926 when the French and British Governments divided the Otterman Empire up between them and established a number of Nations that had dominion over a number of discrete land areas with one of those land area borders also included the land area of Babylon and the nation formed and given dominion over the land of Babylon was Iraq.

Now Hobie, you claim that what you present can be historically proved from history but the linkages to the Roman Empire having dominion over the Land of Babylon never happened at all. The Land of Babylon was devasted and desolated by the northern division oof the divided Greek Empire around the year 120 BC, 60 years before the Roman Empire had established themselves as the dominate Empire in the known world at that time in the middle east.

For me the five segments of the Statue Prophecy in Daniel 2 is, Babylon, the Medes and the Persian followed by the Greek empire. Then there was a period of just over 2,000 years where the land of Babylon lay devasted and desolate before Iraq was declared to have dominion over the Land of Babylon during the division of the spoils of the Otterman Empires between the British and French Nations.

Now if you cannot see in the Historical record that was prophetically foretold in the scriptures in Daniel, Isaiah and Jeremaih concerning the Land of Babylon, then there is no point in you and me searching scriptures together because you would hold to your traditional understanding not wanting to accept what I have been able to determine for myself over the past 20 to 30 years of Biblical study. I once held to the tradition of the Roman Empire and the revived Roman Empire being the fourth and fifth segment of the statue in Daniel 2, but keys were revealed to me that had not been understood previously when I did a particular Hebrew Word study that showed to me that the scholars had not understood what the context of the Hebrew Text with respect to this one particular Hebrew Root word can be found embedded 167 times in Hebrew word variations with the same contextual understanding.

But this is probably going over your head as far as your understanding is concerned and as such it would be pointless for us to study the scriptures together to come to an agreed understanding.

Goodbye
 

mailmandan

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But I know that you disregard the scriptures because the texts that you have used to justify your understanding by the way you have interpretated those scriptures does not jell with me at all.
It's called EISEGESIS. The word "sleep" in scripture when referring to death, refers to the physical death of believers and not being in an unconscious (literal sleeping) state. (John 11:11-12; Acts 7:60; 1 Corinthians 15:6,18,20,51; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-15; 2 Peter 3:4)
 

Hobie

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But I know that you disregard the scriptures because the texts that you have used to justify your understanding by the way you have interpretated those scriptures does not jell with me at all. Yes, we can see people groups, nations kingdoms and empires manifesting the respective four beasts dominate characteristics, but the five beasts are wicked heavenly hosts whose influences ebb and flow through different people groups, kingdoms, nations and empires since the time of Daniel up to this present time, but the number of people groups, nations, kingdoms and empires has not been limited to just four distinct people groups, nations, kingdoms and empires as your rhetoric suggests.

The rhetoric of the reformation fathers was to discredit the RCC and the Papacy and they wrongly linked Daniel 2 with Daniel 7 where their understanding that the land of Babylon would be devastated and desolated for a period of two ages and was only remembered once more historically in 1926 when the French and British Governments divided the Otterman Empire up between them and established a number of Nations that had dominion over a number of discrete land areas with one of those land area borders also included the land area of Babylon and the nation formed and given dominion over the land of Babylon was Iraq.

Now Hobie, you claim that what you present can be historically proved from history but the linkages to the Roman Empire having dominion over the Land of Babylon never happened at all. The Land of Babylon was devasted and desolated by the northern division oof the divided Greek Empire around the year 120 BC, 60 years before the Roman Empire had established themselves as the dominate Empire in the known world at that time in the middle east.

For me the five segments of the Statue Prophecy in Daniel 2 is, Babylon, the Medes and the Persian followed by the Greek empire. Then there was a period of just over 2,000 years where the land of Babylon lay devasted and desolate before Iraq was declared to have dominion over the Land of Babylon during the division of the spoils of the Otterman Empires between the British and French Nations.

Now if you cannot see in the Historical record that was prophetically foretold in the scriptures in Daniel, Isaiah and Jeremaih concerning the Land of Babylon, then there is no point in you and me searching scriptures together because you would hold to your traditional understanding not wanting to accept what I have been able to determine for myself over the past 20 to 30 years of Biblical study. I once held to the tradition of the Roman Empire and the revived Roman Empire being the fourth and fifth segment of the statue in Daniel 2, but keys were revealed to me that had not been understood previously when I did a particular Hebrew Word study that showed to me that the scholars had not understood what the context of the Hebrew Text with respect to this one particular Hebrew Root word can be found embedded 167 times in Hebrew word variations with the same contextual understanding.

But this is probably going over your head as far as your understanding is concerned and as such it would be pointless for us to study the scriptures together to come to an agreed understanding.

Goodbye
So must scripture 'jell' with your private interpretation, need to go by what Gods Word says, not our own ideas..
 

Jay Ross

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So must scripture 'jell' with your private interpretation, need to go by what Gods Word says, not our own ideas..

The worn out saying used as a put down when stubborn people refuse to see what is plainly before them. and refuse to go by what God's Words actual state.

I have not pulled the plug out of the bottom of the boat so that the boat sinks. It is your refusal to accept what God has had recorded in the scriptures that has ripped the whole bottom of the boat out so that it goes down fast as it sinks.
 

Hobie

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The worn out saying used as a put down when stubborn people refuse to see what is plainly before them. and refuse to go by what God's Words actual state.

I have not pulled the plug out of the bottom of the boat so that the boat sinks. It is your refusal to accept what God has had recorded in the scriptures that has ripped the whole bottom of the boat out so that it goes down fast as it sinks.
So you say but ignore what the Bible shows, go through as you should, go line by line, precept by precepts and ask God for guidance in unveiling its truth, not just go by mans tradition or pagan Greek philosophy that has been used to deceive and spread by many..
 

Jay Ross

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So you say but ignore what the Bible shows, go through as you should, go line by line, precept by precepts and ask God for guidance in unveiling its truth, not just go by mans tradition or pagan Greek philosophy that has been used to deceive and spread by many..

Your words remind me of these verses: -

Isiaih 28:11-13 -

11 For with stammering lips and another tongue
He will speak to this people,
12 To whom He said, "This is the rest with which
You may cause the weary to rest,"
And, "This is the refreshing";
Yet they would not hear.
13 But the word of the Lord was to them,
"Precept upon precept, precept upon precept,
Line upon line, line upon line,
Here a little, there a little,"
That they might go and fall backward, and be broken
And snared and caught.


Just like the scribes and priests in Isaiah's day, they believed that they had the necessary understanding to face what was before them, but Isiaih told them they would fall backwards and be broken and snared and caught because they worked line upon line, precept upon precept.

As you have suggested, I have asked God for guidance in unveiling His truth as recorded in the scriptures and find that what is presented as God's truth is nothing more than man's traditions or pagan Greek Philosophy which the so termed scholars of the Christian faith use to deceive many and lead them into destruction.

I am like one crying in the wilderness but your cries that lead to destruction is much louder and designed to overpower God's truth.
 

Hobie

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Your words remind me of these verses: -

Isiaih 28:11-13 -

11 For with stammering lips and another tongue
He will speak to this people,
12 To whom He said, "This is the rest with which
You may cause the weary to rest,"
And, "This is the refreshing";
Yet they would not hear.
13 But the word of the Lord was to them,
"Precept upon precept, precept upon precept,
Line upon line, line upon line,
Here a little, there a little,"
That they might go and fall backward, and be broken
And snared and caught.


Just like the scribes and priests in Isaiah's day, they believed that they had the necessary understanding to face what was before them, but Isiaih told them they would fall backwards and be broken and snared and caught because they worked line upon line, precept upon precept.

As you have suggested, I have asked God for guidance in unveiling His truth as recorded in the scriptures and find that what is presented as God's truth is nothing more than man's traditions or pagan Greek Philosophy which the so termed scholars of the Christian faith use to deceive many and lead them into destruction.

I am like one crying in the wilderness but your cries that lead to destruction is much louder and designed to overpower God's truth.
That's why you use what Gods Word gives us, not ideas of men or self..
 

Jay Ross

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That's why you use what Gods Word gives us, not ideas of men or self..

Hobie, you have no defence for the way you have misused the Bible to push your man-made understanding of the scriptures.

13 But the word of the Lord was to them,
"Precept upon precept, precept upon precept,
Line upon line, line upon line,
Here a little, there a little,"
That they might go and fall backward, and be broken
And snared and caught.


What do the last two lines of the scriptures above tell us?

The beasts are wicked fallen heavenly hosts and the influence the sea of humanity to rise up to manifest their respective dominate characteristic.

The mistake of the reformation fathers, that you are also perpetuating, is the linking of the Daniel 2 Statue prophecy with the Daniel 7 Beast prophecy which does not exist.

The Daniel 2 Statue prophecy is only focused on what will happen in the Land of Babylon/the land of the Chaldeans, whereas the Daniel 7 Beast prophecy is focused on the impact that the four winds of heaven, i.e., the five beasts of Daniel 7:1-12, will have on the whole earth.

It is not my understanding that is in question, but yours.
 

Hobie

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Its very straightforward, if you go straight to heaven, where is the judgement or resurrection or need for Second Coming if all are already in heaven, now you see it goes against Gods Word.
 

Hobie

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It's called EISEGESIS. The word "sleep" in scripture when referring to death, refers to the physical death of believers and not being in an unconscious (literal sleeping) state. (John 11:11-12; Acts 7:60; 1 Corinthians 15:6,18,20,51; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-15; 2 Peter 3:4)
Yes but when you are in a medical operation and they put you under you wake up much the same, with no rememberance of anything, so it will be in the grave..
 

Hobie

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You see, the false doctrines are so ingrained by repetition that Christians forget that "words mean things".

What Paul said is he was willing to be present with the Lord, just as one might say he's willing to be rich. Being willing for a thing is not the same as experiencing that thing.

On Sunday at noon, Christians are "willing to be absent from the church pew and to be present at the Cracker Barrel" - but is a willingness to be there eliminate having to drive from church to the restaurant?

Likewise, Paul's willingness to be "present with the Lord" doesn't eliminate his (and our) need to lie "naked" and "unclothed" without a body, in the grave, dead, awaiting the Resurrection of the Just, which only at that time will Paul indeed be "present with the Lord".
That is one of the best explanations I've heard on it, very true
 
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