Unforgiveness and fellowship with God

[Big Boy Johnson]

continued....

John 15:5
If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Matthew 7:16-20
Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Galatians 6:7,8
Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

Galatians 5:4
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

*This indicates that these folks were born again and they had "fallen from grace" because they turn away from trusting in Jesus for their salvation.


Those that Turned Away from the Lord

2 Timothy 4:3,4
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine (teaching); but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

James 5:19,20
Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
Let him know, that he which converts the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
*By addressing this to “brethren” we know this is speaking to believers who turned from the truth and if they are converted back to the truth, the soul of the person that had fallen away is being saved from spiritual death which is separation from God.

2 Peter 2:1-3
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying (contradicting, Not agreeing with) the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
And through covetousness (idolatry) shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingers not, and their damnation slumbers not.

Jude 1:4
For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness (no self control, living after the flesh), and denying (contradicting, opposing Jesus’ teachings) the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. (referring to false teachers and false brethren - see Matthew 13:24-30)
(Deny = Strong's G0720… to contradict, disavow, reject, deny, refuse - and Strong's G4483… the idea of pouring forth, to utter, speak of or say, command)

Jude 1:17-21
Remember the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
These are those who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.
But you, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
("those who separate themselves" is not referring to sinners in the world who were never joined unto the Lord in the first place)

 

[Nancy]

Perhaps we should talk about what FORMS forgiveness can take. ???

It may be as simple as putting aside our animosity toward someone we have vowed to ourselves to never speak to again.
To approach them as if it never happened, having forgiven them in our heart. To begin to show them love again.

Approaching someone with a declaration of forgiveness, and then turning on our heel to never speak to them again is questionable.

/

Yes, it is holding grudges which, is the same as unforgiveness.

 

[St. SteVen]

Yes, it is holding grudges which, is the same as unforgiveness.

Agree.
We don't hear much about the sin of indifference.
Some think it is the "safe" way to hate someone, since nothing is actually done to them.

Indifference is the extreme in the middle between love and hate.
We murder someone by paying them no mind, and think we have not committed any wrongdoing.

/

 

[marks]

Yes, of course, we are reconciled to God through Christ....our legal standing before God, imputed righteousness. I was talking about the break in fellowship with God when someone holds grudges against another. There will be a lack of peace and usually a feeling of something not quite right within us.

I guess I see "break in fellowship with God" and "a lack of peace", feeling something isn't quite right, or even knowing, these are different. Every lack of peace, every troubling feeling, I like to bring to God immediately. He is always here. That's why it's such a heartbreaker whenever I go against Him!

Much love!

 

[marks]

Well that's false doctrine according to God's Word!

Here are some passages that are warnings from the Lord that that prove this is false doctrine:

We should rather start with discovering, "what is Justification" according to Scripture. Apparently you believe that you add to what Jesus did. What do you suppose that it is that you add? Specifically?

What do you believe Justification is, as taught in Romans 4-6, for instance? There are two types of justification, can you say what they are?

Posting a long list of verses out of context, and that don't make the statement you made doesn't make for a convenient discussion. If you wish we can take each of those you posted and put them into context. But this other way is quicker.

Much love!

 

[marks]

1 Corinthians 9:27
I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Castaway (G0096 in Strong's) = unapproved, rejected, worthless, reprobate.

This is the same greek word used in Romans 1:28 when the Lord turned those over to a reprobate mind who refused retain God in their knowledge and walk with Him.

This means, Paul believed that if he did not control himself and went back to walking after the flesh HE would be unapproved, rejected, worthless, reprobate!

Obviously the Apostle Paul did not believe in "once saved, always saved" aka "eternal security"

I'm curious, how much of this context have you considered when you are looking at the verse you quoted? You quote it as though it supports your assertion that the born again may become spiritually dead again. Is that what the context shows to us?

1 Corinthians 9:16-27
(16) For if I proclaim the gospel, no glory is to me; for necessity is laid on me, and it is woe to me if I do not proclaim the gospel.
(17) For if I do this willingly, I have a reward; but if unwillingly, I am entrusted with a stewardship.
(18) What then is my reward? That proclaiming the gospel I may make the gospel of Christ free, so as not to use fully my authority in the gospel.
(19) For being free of all, I enslaved myself to all, that I might gain the more.
(20) And I became as a Jew to the Jews, that I might gain Jews; to those under Law as under Law, that I might gain those under Law;
(21) to those without Law as without Law (not being without Law of God, but under the law of Christ), that I might gain those without Law.
(22) I became to the weak as weak, that I might gain the weak. To all I have become all things, that in any and every way I might save some.
(23) And I do this for the gospel, that I might become a fellow partaker of it.
(24) Do you not know that those running in a stadium indeed all run, but one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain.
(25) But everyone striving controls himself in all things. Then those truly that they may receive a corruptible crown, but we an incorruptible.
(26) So I run accordingly, as not uncertainly; so I fight, as not beating air;
(27) but I buffet my body and lead it captive, lest proclaiming to others I myself might be disapproved.

Paul recognizes that God has laid a charge on him to preach the Gospel, and so preaching it is not to his credit, because it's his duty to do so. No reward there.

However, he's determined that he would not do as others did, that is, take in his living from others, but rather he worked as well as "Apostled", even to the point of supporting those with him also.

And I do this for the gospel, that I might become a fellow partaker of it.

He's not just "doing his duty", he also wants reward.

You see the world's athletes, how they compete, how they train, how they run, and that's for fading crown. He wants to run that way, since after all, he's competing for an eternal crown! He wants his reward.

So he even treats himself harshly, making his body his slave, so that even as he's preaching to others, that he himself won't be rejected from that testing.

There are a couple of ways to take this passage. One is, what he'd been talking about, rejected from receiving his reward. That's the "apparent context". Another is, as he's talking about preaching, that he be rejected from salvation. But let's stay with the meaning of the word shall we please? This word is, "reject after testing". It's like, you claim this clear rod is unbreakable with steel rod. So you hit the one against the other as hard as you can, and it either breaks or it doesn't.

This isn't describing how an unbreakable rod becomes breakable, it's about how the testing shows you the true nature of what is being tested.

A modern day example would be a man like Charles Templeton, who, after successfully leading arena evangelism, seemingly leading a great many people to Christ, he himself walked away from it, and later wrote how that in fact he never did believe all these things. But he was a very talented man.

Whichever way you look at this passage, it makes no such statement that the born again become unborn again. If it did, you'd have a real issue between it, and passages such as,

Colossians 3:1-4
(1) If, then, you were raised with Christ, seek the things above, where Christ is sitting at the right of God; Psa. 110:1
(2) mind the things above, not the things on the earth.
(3) For you died, and your life has been hidden with Christ in God.
(4) Whenever Christ our life is revealed, then also you will be revealed with Him in glory.

This passage plainly states that those who are "died and risen with Christ" here in this world, that these will in fact appear with Him in glory when He appears.

The first passage contains an ambiguity, and therefore needs to be interpreted by plainly stated passages which address that ambiguity.

So the question is, was Paul speaking of rewards, as the context indicates? Or should we give greater weight to "proclaiming", that is, preaching the Gospel, and think of this as a salvation matter?

Gaining or losing rewards is something addressed in other places such as 1 Corinthians 3, saved, but without reward.

If we are to look at this regarding Paul's "saved state", "reprobate" or "rejected after testing" isn't a word describing a change of state, only the revealing of the true state having been tested. This also is spoken of elsewhere in the same terms, those who go out were never part.

Mind you, I simply pointing to what the words in the Bible say, and I caution you to believe them, and not believe what is not there.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Here are some passages that are warnings from the Lord that that prove this is false doctrine:

1 Corinthians 9:27

I just realized . . . wrong thread to start on this one. But if you want to hear from me on these other passages, feel free to open a new thread and tag me on it, so I'll know. I'll be happy to go through each of these with you, one by one.

Much love!

 

[Debp]

Every lack of peace, every troubling feeling, I like to bring to God immediately. He is always here. That's why it's such a heartbreaker whenever I go against Him!

Yes, that's it exactly. Why would we want to do something that causes us to feel a lack of communion with God...

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

Apparently you believe that you add to what Jesus did. What do you suppose that it is that you add? Specifically?

No, I believe the purpose of salvation is for man put off the old man and put in the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness (Ephesians 4:22-24) and be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ (Romans 8:29) and to walk in agreement with Him (Amos 3:3), abiding IN CHRIST baring fruit so we aren't cut off and thrown in to the first (see John 15)

We are called to be obedient to the Lord... false teachers claim this is "works based salvation" because they do not accept the whole counsel of God... which is why they are false teachers!

I just realized . . . wrong thread to start on this one. But if you want to hear from me on these other passages, feel free to open a new thread and tag me on it, so I'll know. I'll be happy to go through each of these with you, one by one.

You aren't the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ sent to lead and guide me in to all the Truth... so I'll pass.

I don't sit under false doctrine, or ambiguity...

 

[marks]

Yes, that's it exactly. Why would we want to do something that causes us to feel a lack of communion with God...

That's the question, isn't it? I wonder how much this is affected by the lack of self forgiveness.

Much love!

 

[marks]

so I'll pass.

Not surprising in the least . . .

It's OK.

Much love!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Since unforgiveness, like any other sin, breaks our fellowship with God, Christians should desire to restore that fellowship. To have fellowship with God, peace in our hearts and minds is worth more than anything else.

Also, thinking about the Fruits of the Spirit, a spirit of unforgiveness hinders regarding those.

22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.
24And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Galatians 5:22-25

Are we willing to crucify our flesh regarding a spirit of unforgiveness? Or do we harbor a spirit of pride, unwilling to yield?

I think it all comes down to love VS pride.

When our pride is hurt. we do not want to forgive.

I think it helps if we see that God forgave us..

 

[L.A.M.B.]

If we are God's then we WILL receive chastisements from him when our behavior is unbecoming to his word.

As his children, he loves us, proven in the fact he sent his Son in our stead to pay for the penalty of our sins and he WILL chastise those he loves.

A/E sinned in disobedience therefore HIDING themselves from God. ( Is unforgiveness not a sin ?)
The first sacrifice was the animal from which God gave them a covering of their nakedness.
He then put them OUTSIDE the garden as their chastisement.

We have DIRECT contact with the Father through the Spirit & the Son by his grace.

A few questions, if I may.
1 Hurt causes unforgiveness. If the one who hurts does not repent of the hurting......
Can we truly forgive if they are not sorry?
2 Unforiveness hurts us more than the offender. If they repent & we forgive but CANNOT let the hurt go .......
Have we really forgiven?
3 The hurt is greater even after we forgive, than our forgiveness.
Does forgiveness restore fellowship with one another always?

There are many many HURT at churches, preachers, teachers, brethren, ect
HOW DO WE BURY THE HURT UNDER THE FORGIVENESS WE HAVE IN GOD?

Sorry for the length @Debp

 

[amigo de christo]

In thinking further on the issue of forgiveness of others.

Unforgiveness harms the one withholding it most but can also be destructive towards the ones we refuse to forgive.

Out of the abundance of the heart is where our treasures proceed. Unforgiveness causes anger & bitterness which leads us to then try to harm the testimony of the one who we feel hurt from. This leads to hatred, hatred is a sin and tends to lead to gossip which is murder of another's witness of Christ.

Do we love ourselves more than others ?

If we do not forgive can we expect the mercy of God to be granted unto us when we do wrong ?

the unforgivenss of man proves his pride and lack of knowledge of the LOVE OF GOD .
How so one might ask .
GOD showed me something real quick and real fast .
I , by grace continued to read the scrips daily , STILL DO , and as i read them
i became aware of something on a much deeper level . What was it that by grace i became aware of
JUST HOW WICKED AND VILE i was and that there is nothing GOOD In me , BUT THE HOLY SPIRIT .
AND IF GOD can SEND CHRIST to pay the price of sins and THEN later drew one of the worst like me
Having FORGIVEN ME BASED ON WHAT JESUS DID and having led me to HIM through grace .
HOW THE HECK can i hold a grudge against anyone who wrongs me . I mean , I WRONGED MAN AND GOD MASSIVELY .
BIG TIME . YET grace came . Grace that drew me to CHRIST .
YOU SEE i was forgiven a MOUTAIN oF SIN against GOD and man , Not based on me but based on CHRIST and what HE DID
and then later GOD by grace having even drawn this vile thing to saving grace by putting faith into my heart .
PRIDE . you see men view themselves FAR TOO HIGHLY . HOW DARE THEE offend against me .
But who are we but dust and ash . WE offended much against GOD and man . YET DUE TO THE MERCY OF HIS GRACE
we are FORGIVEN IN CHRIST JESUS . FOR WHAT JESUS DID . FOR WHAT HE DID . cause we sure as heck didnt deserve
HIS MERCY OR GRACE . IF we truly have the LOVE OF GOD shed upon our hearts , WE WOULD LOVE HIS WORDS.

 

[Nancy]

That's the question, isn't it? I wonder how much this is affected by the lack of self forgiveness.

Much love!

I find it difficult to forgive myself. Always have. I'm sure we all have regrets for who we were B.C.
Then I think, Christ died a horrible death to forgive us our sins and restore fellowship with The Father.
If God can forgive us and forget, it's a new slate, Amen! But it does not remove regrets

 

[L.A.M.B.]

I find it difficult to forgive myself. Always have. I'm sure we all have regrets for who we were B.C.
Then I think, Christ died a horrible death to forgive us our sins and restore fellowship with The Father.
If God can forgive us and forget, it's a new slate, Amen! But it does not remove regrets

I agree.
In talking the regrets and the feelings of guilt we have either in engaging wrongly by what we say or the guilt of our actions.....how do we forgive ourselves.
Not wanting to soothe the conscience but this is also hard for me ........
self-forgiveness .

 

[L.A.M.B.]

I know we ask for forgiveness of others and make restitutions where possible.

 

[Nancy]

I know we ask for forgiveness of others and make restitutions where possible.

Yes, and that is sometimes even harder! Especially if the person who did you wrong will not receive your forgiveness because they do not own up to their own sins and offences. That also makes it unlikely that reconciliation will happen.

 

[L.A.M.B.]

Yes, and that is sometimes even harder! Especially if the person who did you wrong will not receive your forgiveness because they do not own up to their own sins and offences. That also makes it unlikely that reconciliation will happen.

Agreed or if they have since passed and restitution cannot be completed.
We as believers are tasked with a fine line between righteousness & unrighteousness.
Personally I do not believe there are little nor big sins. Sins from the heart via the mouth are the same guilt as sins of the flesh.
They all must be repented of.....

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

Not surprising in the least . . .

It's OK.

Much love!

You speak as one that is opposed to being obedient to the Lord after getting born again claiming this is "adding to" what Jesus did at the Cross, claiming this is works based salvation

This is common erroneous thinking among the reformed theology / calvinists / OSAS peoples due to their refusal to believe everything God's Word teaches concerning salvation.

In fact, the reformed theology / calvinists / OSAS peoples actually agree with the message satan had for Adam and Eve which is.,.. one can willingly and knowingly disobey God on purpose (SIN) and not die spiritually which is to be separated from the Lord due to light and darkness not having fellowship (2 Corinthians 6:14)

So, you'll have to excuse me for not having any willingness to sit under false doctrine... cause I know better than the reformed theology / calvinists / OSAS peoples!

I've spent years comparing what the reformed theology / calvinists / OSAS peoples teach to what God teaches in His word... and you folks up come way short!