Unforgiveness and fellowship with God

[Debp]

Since unforgiveness, like any other sin, breaks our fellowship with God, Christians should desire to restore that fellowship. To have fellowship with God, peace in our hearts and minds is worth more than anything else.

Also, thinking about the Fruits of the Spirit, a spirit of unforgiveness hinders regarding those.

22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.
24And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Galatians 5:22-25

Are we willing to crucify our flesh regarding a spirit of unforgiveness? Or do we harbor a spirit of pride, unwilling to yield?

 

[Pearl]

I think that forgiveness must surely be the greatest act of love that there is. Jesus showed his love for the men that crucified him and the crowd that cheered them on by asking his Father to forgive them. He himself is able to forgive the most horrendous of sins.

For us to forgive is to imitate Jesus our Lord. In cases like the one you have given, it isn’t easy, but is it ever easy to forgive? That’s not the point though is it? The point is that we obey. Jesus tells us, “But if you refuse to forgive others, your Father will not forgive your sins.” Matthew 6:15​

All we can do is to ask for God’s grace and love to fill our hearts and then make forgiveness something we actively choose to do, as these parents must have done, rather than waiting until we feel like forgiving.​

And we should always remember that unforgiveness harms us much more than the person we refuse to forgive.

 

[marks]

Since unforgiveness, like any other sin, breaks our fellowship with God,

We are reconciled to God in Christ, not in ourselves, so our behavior doesn't change being reconciled to God. We may not be as comfortable with Him. I know that I can have the tendency to want to hide, though not so much these days.

Personally I find that it's the time I spend with God that helps me get past unforgiveness. I don't see that I'm "shut out" from God when I commit sin. He knows I'm still a work in process, better than anyone! Receiving from Him the softness of His love softens me to love others more.

Much love!

 

[Pearl]

I heard a preacher talking about forgiveness:
He said that we must first want to forgive,
Next that we must decide to forgive,
thirdly that we should speak forgiveness out loud – repeatedly - so that eventually with God’s grace we will actually feel the forgiveness in our hearts.

 

[amigo de christo]

I heard a preacher talking about forgiveness:
He said that we must first want to forgive,
Next that we must decide to forgive,
thirdly that we should speak forgiveness out loud – repeatedly - so that eventually with God’s grace we will actually feel the forgiveness in our hearts.

Let us all understand something . IF a brother or sister wrongs anyone , first go to the one who wrong you , IN PRIVATE ,
If they hear not , THEN bring two or more witnesses .
You see the error has to be corrected . IF the person who did the wrong repents , THEN AMEN .
IF they repent . Notice JESUS says Even if the wrong you many times and yet REPENT , YOU FORGIVE .
However new age all inclusive is taking forgivenss to yet another dark realm in order to sneak sin into the church .
ALL sin must always be corrected within the church . KNOWN SIN . If we KNOW one is in sin
we should out of great love and dire concern for their soul correct the one in sin .
If one wrongs us and repents and yet we hold a grudge , THEN WE GOT THE PROBLEM and we NEED TO REPENT
and FORGIVE and not hold that grudge .
For if you forgive not men their trespasses , WELL WE ALL KNOW WHAT JESUS SAID , neither will MY FATHER , OUR FATHER
forgive us ours . It is dire important to not hold resentment and hate towards EVEN THOSE WHO PERSECUTE US .
we should even pray for them . However this must also get said
due to a false teaching has arisen . The false teaching tries to imply we should just be yoked up
and find common ground with unbelievers . THAT BE A FAT LIE from the devil . THERE is no common ground
for us and the world . The only common ground a lamb has IS IN JESUS CHRIST and those who are IN JESUS CHRIST .
as far as errors and etc , THEY must be corrected , and if the sinner repents not of his wicked way
THEN cut him or her OUT of the church , TILL such a one does repent .
AKA if a man cometh in and is justifying KNOWN SIN , Living IN KNOWN SIN , THEY MUST be corrected
and if they heed not they gotta go . Lets remember that the next time someone tries to bring in a dark rainbow agenda
or any other sin .

 

[Nancy]

I heard a preacher talking about forgiveness:
He said that we must first want to forgive,
Next that we must decide to forgive,
thirdly that we should speak forgiveness out loud – repeatedly - so that eventually with God’s grace we will actually feel the forgiveness in our hearts.

Ahhhh, now the "wanting" part is very difficult if you are hurt deeply enough. Of course we "want to" to obey Jesus...but if ones heart is not easily softened toward those folks, I find I have to pray every time I think of past hurts and those who did them because I already forgave them but, still can at times feel the hurt all over again..then back to the drawing board "Lord please help me to feel this forgiveness in my heart, so that I will know it is sincere! Please Lord, give me compassion and grace-that I extend the very same to them that You have given me Lord.
Some say it can be a process, some say no, it should happen right away! Either way, God does know each of our hearts and knows that we want badly to not only forgive, but to forget, just like God.
JMHO

Good thread @Debp !

 

[Papa Smurf]

Jesus showed his love for the men that crucified him and the crowd that cheered them on by asking his Father to forgive them.

Hello Pearl, this is an interesting verse for at least a couple of reasons. First of all, why does the Lord Jesus ask His Father to forgive the people instead of simply forgiving them Himself, like He had been doing all along

Also, what was He asking the Father to forgive them of, exactly? Murder? And to what end? Their salvation? Surely not.

Perhaps He was asking Him to forgive them for not knowing what they should have known about the innocent Man they were putting to death?

I'd appreciate knowing your thoughts on this.

Thanks

God bless you!!

--Papa Smurf
p.s. - just to add another twist to all of this while I'm at it, there is a good possibility that the opening sentence in Luke 23:34 was not part of Luke's Autograph, because the opening sentence of v34 does not exist in some of our earliest manuscripts.
.

 

[Papa Smurf]

....we "want to" to obey Jesus...

Hi Nancy, that is true, of course, but what the Lord requires of us, in admonishing us to be His "peacemakers" .. Matthew 5:9, that is, is a VERY difficult thing, because it requires the injured party (the person who was sinned against, that is) to be the one who initiates the Biblical processes of both forgiveness and reconciliation (which also means, for instance, that we must be ready and willing to be hurt again by the very same person ).

However, the Lord's words could not be clearer about all of this, yes (see v3 below), but I struggle with it nevertheless, because "people pleasing" comes so naturally to me , and therefore obeying this particular command (which means leaving my people-pleasing nature behind) does not.

Luke 17​

3 “If your brother sins, ~rebuke him~; and if he repents, forgive him. ​

4 And if he sins against you seven times a day, and returns to you seven times, saying, ‘I repent,’ forgive him.”​

edit: It seems to me that we must always be ready and willing to forgive those who have sinned against us, but we must not do so apart from our loving rebuke and their repentance, because if we do, we 1. disobey the command of God in regard to forgiveness, and 2. we rob the offending party of the opportunity that they need from us to repent and be forgiven (unless they repent and seek to be forgiven on their own first, of course ).

The thing is, some of the folks who hurt us emotionally aren't even aware that they've done so (and they never will unless we say something to them), while others, who just pretend that they aren't aware of the hurt that they've caused, need to be told plainly for their sake.

Question, the Lord's command (in Luke 17:3) seems to be in regard to our brothers and sisters in Christ. Do you think that there is should be a different way of handling forgiveness (at least some of the time) in the case of unbelievers

Thanks

God bless you!!

--Papa Smurf
p.s. - I've listened to many sermons by pastor John MacArthur over the last 37 years (since becoming a believer), and his sermons on the passage known as the Sermon on the Mount are favorites of mine, but I think that his sermon on Matthew 5:9, Happy Are The Peacemakers, is my very favorite of all (and definitely worth a listen and/or read if you have the time ).

Lastly, when I choose to follow the admonishment in the Dr. Ferguson's quote, especially when I clearly do not want to, I have never been disappointed.

​

 

[Nancy]

Hi Nancy, that is true, of course, but what the Lord requires of us, in admonishing us to be His "peacemakers" .. Matthew 5:9, that is, is a VERY difficult thing, because it requires the injured party (the person who was sinned against, that is) to be the one who initiates the Biblical processes of both forgiveness and reconciliation (which also means, for instance, that we must be ready and willing to be hurt again by the very same person ).

However, the Lord's words could not be clearer about all of this, yes (see v3 below), but I struggle with it nevertheless, because "people pleasing" comes so naturally to me , and therefore obeying this particular command (which means leaving my people-pleasing nature behind) does not.

Luke 17​

3 “If your brother sins, ~rebuke him~; and if he repents, forgive him. ​

4 And if he sins against you seven times a day, and returns to you seven times, saying, ‘I repent,’ forgive him.”​

God bless you!!

--Papa Smurf
p.s. - I've listened to many sermons by pastor John MacArthur over the last 37 years (since becoming a believer), and his sermons on the passage known as the Sermon on the Mount are favorites of mine, but I think that his sermon on Matthew 5:9, Happy Are The Peacemakers, is my very favorite of all (and definitely worth a listen and/or read if you have the time ).

Lastly, when I choose to follow the admonishment in the Dr. Ferguson's quote, especially when I clearly do not want to, I have never been disappointed.

View attachment 37725​

"(the person who was sinned against, that is) to be the one who initiates the Biblical processes of both forgiveness and reconciliation (which also means, for instance, that we must be ready and willing to be hurt again by the very same person )."

Yess "oops", lol.
Hopefully we will be ready for it next time around and expect it will happen throughout life.
Yes, the Ferguson quote to some, might seem like jumping off a cliff...better yet: Abraham with Isaac.

 

[Debp]

We are reconciled to God in Christ, not in ourselves, so our behavior doesn't change being reconciled to God. We may not be as comfortable with Him.

Yes, of course, we are reconciled to God through Christ....our legal standing before God, imputed righteousness. I was talking about the break in fellowship with God when someone holds grudges against another. There will be a lack of peace and usually a feeling of something not quite right within us.

 

[Papa Smurf]

Yes, of course, we are reconciled to God through Christ....our legal standing before God, imputed righteousness. I was talking about the break in fellowship with God when someone holds grudges against another. There will be a lack of peace and usually a feeling of something not quite right within us.

Thanks Debp and @marks , I believe that this is a VERY important point that needs to be clearly made and understood, because MANY today believe that salvation is gained, maintained, or both .. or lost, due to our willingness, or lack thereof, to forgive others, and that is simply not what is meant in Matthew 6:14-15 (rather, as you have indicated, our close fellowship with God is what is in jeopardy .. or as King David put it, "the ~joy~ of Thy salvation" is what is lost .. Psalm 51:12, NOT salvation itself).

God bless you!!

--Papa Smurf

 

[L.A.M.B.]

To me this says all;

Matthew 6:14-15
For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly WILL ALSO FORGIVE YOU: BUT IF you FORGIVE NOT men their trespasses, NEITHER WILL YOUR FATHER FORGIVE YOUR TRESPASSES.

Forgiveness is the greatest attribute of God's character ; John 3:16.

By his forgiveness of us through our acceptance & belief in Jesus' D,B,& R we are offered the " gift" of salvation, this reconciles us to God through the forgiveness of our past sins.


Ezekiel 33
18 When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby. 19 But if the wicked turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall live thereby.

This BREAKS our contract of reconciliation. with God through Jesus.

 

[L.A.M.B.]

In thinking further on the issue of forgiveness of others.

Unforgiveness harms the one withholding it most but can also be destructive towards the ones we refuse to forgive.

Out of the abundance of the heart is where our treasures proceed. Unforgiveness causes anger & bitterness which leads us to then try to harm the testimony of the one who we feel hurt from. This leads to hatred, hatred is a sin and tends to lead to gossip which is murder of another's witness of Christ.

Do we love ourselves more than others ?

If we do not forgive can we expect the mercy of God to be granted unto us when we do wrong ?

 

[St. SteVen]

I heard a preacher talking about forgiveness:
He said that we must first want to forgive,
Next that we must decide to forgive,
thirdly that we should speak forgiveness out loud – repeatedly - so that eventually with God’s grace we will actually feel the forgiveness in our hearts.

I think the emotional aspect really gets in the way.
If we view it as a spiritual transaction between ourselves, God, and the perpetrator of the offense, that helps.

As with many things. If we place God between ourselves and the issue, we can have some perspective.
Otherwise the THING, whatever it is, obscures our view of God. The THING becomes an idol of sorts.

Ahhhh, now the "wanting" part is very difficult if you are hurt deeply enough. Of course we "want to" to obey Jesus...but if ones heart is not easily softened toward those folks, I find I have to pray every time I think of past hurts and those who did them because I already forgave them but, still can at times feel the hurt all over again..then back to the drawing board "Lord please help me to feel this forgiveness in my heart, so that I will know it is sincere! Please Lord, give me compassion and grace-that I extend the very same to them that You have given me Lord.
Some say it can be a process, some say no, it should happen right away! Either way, God does know each of our hearts and knows that we want badly to not only forgive, but to forget, just like God.
JMHO

Good thread @Debp !

Yes, that makes it more difficult if it'd a BIG hurt and you can't get away from it.

/

 

[St. SteVen]

"(the person who was sinned against, that is) to be the one who initiates the Biblical processes of both forgiveness and reconciliation (which also means, for instance, that we must be ready and willing to be hurt again by the very same person )."

Agree.
Oftentimes the perpetrator is unaware, or uncaring.

On the other hand, we should take note and respond when we see that we may have hurt someone else.
Work to maintain relationships.

Build bridges, not walls.

/

 

[St. SteVen]

In thinking further on the issue of forgiveness of others.

Unforgiveness harms the one withholding it most but can also be destructive towards the ones we refuse to forgive.

Out of the abundance of the heart is where our treasures proceed. Unforgiveness causes anger & bitterness which leads us to then try to harm the testimony of the one who we feel hurt from. This leads to hatred, hatred is a sin and tends to lead to gossip which is murder of another's witness of Christ.

Do we love ourselves more than others ?

If we do not forgive can we expect the mercy of God to be granted unto us when we do wrong ?

I suppose the BIGGY is if someone asks us to forgive them and we REFUSE.

/

 

[St. SteVen]

Since unforgiveness, like any other sin, breaks our fellowship with God, Christians should desire to restore that fellowship. To have fellowship with God, peace in our hearts and minds is worth more than anything else.

Also, thinking about the Fruits of the Spirit, a spirit of unforgiveness hinders regarding those.

22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.
24And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Galatians 5:22-25

Are we willing to crucify our flesh regarding a spirit of unforgiveness? Or do we harbor a spirit of pride, unwilling to yield?

Perhaps we should talk about what FORMS forgiveness can take. ???

It may be as simple as putting aside our animosity toward someone we have vowed to ourselves to never speak to again.
To approach them as if it never happened, having forgiven them in our heart. To begin to show them love again.

Approaching someone with a declaration of forgiveness, and then turning on our heel to never speak to them again is questionable.

/

 

[Pearl]

Ahhhh, now the "wanting" part is very difficult if you are hurt deeply enough.

We should want to want. We know what Jesus says about forgiveness and that alone should make us want to forgive. But we need to ask for his help in the wanting because it is often something we can't do alone.

 

[St. SteVen]

Question: Does the 70 x 7 put a limit on how many times we are required to forgive? (the literal reading)

Matthew 18:22 NIV
Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.[a]

Footnote​

1. Matthew 18:22 Or seventy times seven

/

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

our behavior doesn't change being reconciled to God.

Well that's false doctrine according to God's Word!

Here are some passages that are warnings from the Lord that that prove this is false doctrine:

1 Corinthians 9:27
I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Castaway (G0096 in Strong's) = unapproved, rejected, worthless, reprobate.

This is the same greek word used in Romans 1:28 when the Lord turned those over to a reprobate mind who refused retain God in their knowledge and walk with Him.

This means, Paul believed that if he did not control himself and went back to walking after the flesh HE would be unapproved, rejected, worthless, reprobate!

Obviously the Apostle Paul did not believe in "once saved, always saved" aka "eternal security"

Colossians 1:21-23
And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
IF ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven.

*A condition is given here to be righteous before the Lord which is IF we continue in the faith.

Matthew 10:22
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endures to the end shall be saved.

Jude 1:5,6
I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

*If once saved always saved was true, then the Lord would not be speaking thru Jude to put us in remembrance about what happened to those that quit believing (turned their backs on the Lord to live in opposition to Him which is to live in sin).

*If angels having been created perfect turn away from the Lord and be separated from Him forever, we would experience the same. Thankfully, the Lord has provided a way for man to confess and forsake sin in order to receive mercy (see Proverbs 28:13), but if we continue in our sin we will not have mercy due having turned away from the Lord

Hebrews 10:26
For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins

*If we knowing and willing continue in sin, Jesus’ sacrifice on the Cross is no longer applicable and there will be no new sacrifice for sin forthcoming other than what Jesus has already done at the Cross. One must cease from sin for the work of Christ to be applicable to them.

Ephesians 5:3-7
But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Be not ye therefore partakers with them.

Galatians 5:19-21
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

*One must cease from sin for the work of Christ to be applicable to them.

1 Corinthians 6:9,10
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Revelation 21:7,8
He that overcomes shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be My son. (abide In Christ!)
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers (man whores), and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. (These things, and all sin, must be confessed and forsaken to avoid going to hell!)

Revelation 9:21
And they did not repent of their murders, or their sorceries, or their sexual immorality, or their thefts

Romans 1:28-32
And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
Without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

1 Timothy 1:8-11
But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.

Ezekiel 18:26,27
When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, and commits iniquity, and dies in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.

Again, when the wicked man turns away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.

Ezekiel 18:20 (see Romans 8:13)
The soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Romans 8:13
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. (see 2 Corinthians 5:15 says….Jesus died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto Him which died for them, and rose again.)

Ezekiel 18:20-24 (see Romans 8:13)
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

Ezekiel 33:13
When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it

Matthew 10:32,33
Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 6:14,15
For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

John 15:1,2
I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.