Unity

[Sr.Brandon]

Read John 17 first.
Pay attention to this verse:

John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

It may just be an incorrect interpretation on my part but these days I don't see oneness within the believers. (Oneness as in unity, not oneness as in the Jesus only vs Trinity discussion.) If this is true then the unbelievers won't believe the Father sent the Son, right?

So my question is, have we failed? If not, then how and why?
If we have, how, why and how should we go about to fix the issue?

 

[biggandyy]

You haven't read Act 6, there hasn't been unity since a few days after Pentecost.

 

[Sr.Brandon]

Let's assume for the sake of the argument that everything in Acts displays how to behave in unity in such large groups of people.

 

[biggandyy]

Why assume a lie when a plain reading of Acts 6 clearly demonstrates disunity?

----------You know I'm right.

 

[IanLC]

He has already states that there is disunity biggandyy He is asking how can we come int unity. I believe if man will give up selfishness and truly adhere to the gospel of Christ Jesus we would be unified. Maybe not in one place but all of One Spirit the Holy Spirit of God. Many of our denominations today fight with each other judging and determining who is saved and who is not. Man made disunity.

 

[aspen]

I think we focus too much on doctrine and not love.

 

[ttruscott]

So why do you think that GOD can't / won't / doesn't communicate the clear simple truth?

Every simple doctrine can plainly be read different ways, and usually is according to the predisposition of the reader. What does that imply about GOD's methods? Doesn't it imply that HE wants it this way?

HE allows this to happen for a reason. Why doesn't HE just appear in the sky to everyone at the same time and tell them to sit down and be nice to each other as the atheists demand before they will believe?

Well, to my mind, such proof would destroy faith and GOD wants us to live by faith. Basically the scriptures are written so that anyone can believe or disbelieve anything they want to, there is just no proof in them. No proof that will convince other people anyway.

In this way GOD allows us each to choose where to put our faith, by which we actually define our own reality, the world view we live in which also defines both God and our relationship with Him from our point of view. "This is what I believe" means "This is the way I think it is, the reality of the universe." 2 Corinthians 5:7 We live by faith, not by sight.

[Since there is no proof either that GOD does NOT exist and the scriptures are NOT true, atheists also define reality by choosing what they believe, putting their faith in a reality without GOD.]

The other area in which most of us have no proof is in the leading of the Holy Spirit. By proof I mean something I can show to someone else as irrefutably the leading of the Holy Spirit. The Spirit of GOD inspired the scriptures, inspires interpretations of those scriptures, inspires translations of those scriptures then further interpretations and speaks to the prophets.

All of this yet there is no concise perfect acceptance of any one authority about it all. We all get to follow the voice that tells us the reality we want to hear.

FAITH
• Complete trust or confidence in someone or something.
• Strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.

2 Corinthians 5:7
We live by faith, not by sight. (the external or outward appearance, form figure, shape)

Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the conviction / evidence of things not seen.

Hebrews 11:1 is probably the most concise definition of faith found in the Bible. It is considered the classical definition of faith. Faith is both the substance of things hoped for and the evidence that things exist that are not yet perceived with the senses, ie the basis of hope and the conviction of things not proven.

Belief ≠ faith:
James 2:19, KJV
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble, because their belief is not faith since it is based on proof.

Devils have proof:
Luke 4:34
"Ha! What do you want with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are--the Holy One of God!"

know: Strong's G1492 - eidō
1) to see
a) to perceive with the eyes
B) to perceive by any of the senses
c) to perceive, notice, discern, discover
d) to see

the opposite of "unseen things" and "not by sight."

So why does GOD want us to live by faith and not by sight? If faith alone is the big answer, why is the faith of Muslems, Hindus and others NOT honoured?

Because faith has no magic, it is merely the process by which we make our choice at the deepest level of hope and conviction of the reality we want. It is the great divider between people and the great bond between the like minded.

And inside of large groups such as the Christian world, faith achieves the same purpose. Everyone is declaring where they put their trust, their hope and their conviction by their belief in a certain reality.

The funny thing is that in the pre-earth spirit world it was all theoretical but here on earth every person gets to live according to their faith in their true free will choice to accept GOD's purpose for their creation or to reject it for a different reality of their choice like in Matt 13, the wheat and the tares, esp 30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn. the harvest being when all creation has chosen by faith the reality they most hope to see backed by commitment to holiness (wheat) or not (tares).

Peace, Ted

 

[aspen]

I agree that God wants to reveal Himself to us in a manner that increases faith. As fallen humans we want desperately to control and idolize and even conquer everything we meet and interact with - and if we were given the chance, we would try to do the same thing to God. If He revealed Himself to everyone at once and made every mystery plain to us - we would first, normalize Him; then resent Him; and finally, demand that He either become a tyrant (towards others) or a push over (when we wanted something from Him).

Fallen humans are not easy to deal with - thankfully, God knows and loves us.

 

[Strat]

To call for "unity" at all cost is to claim that there is no difference between truth and a lie,if that is true the whole Bible is pointless and should have never been written...truth united with truth is truth while truth united with a lie becomes a lie....those who suggest that "love" is a substituite for truth corrupt the meaning of love and turn it into a lie as well...in the bible truth is referred to as light and lies are referred to as darkness.....people love the darkness because the light exposes their evil ways...most people want to be saved but they don't want to be changed,they want redemption from consequences of their behaviour while continuing the behaviour

 

[aspen]

I agree - unity at all costs does not preserve the truth. However, we can work together to serve our neighbors even if we do not agree on doctrine.

 

[brightmorningstar]

However, we can work together to serve our neighbors even if we do not agree on doctrine.

No 'we' cant because without the correct doctrine one can't be sure its love. Remember love is god to the world, God is love to the believer. What the wordl sometimes considers love is detestable to God.

[sup]16 [/sup]All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, [sup]17 [/sup]so that the servant of God[sup][a][/sup] may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

So doctrine, which is scriptural, is to equip for every good work.

aspen2, you are proving the criticism levelled at your thinking, it is likely to be wordly love that you are so keen on championing at the expense of God's word.

 

[bytheway]

I think we focus too much on doctrine and not love.

stephen colbert???? Really??? He knows nothing of which he speaks. The poor will always be, mostly in our day intitlement minded so called adults.This country's longest war is the war on poverty, 40 years with Billions and Billions spent to what end? This nation does more than any other to help the poor. Many just want to stay on the dole, for life.You quoted a comedian, how apropos!

 

[aspen]

No 'we' cant because without the correct doctrine one can't be sure its love.

Love is selflessness. Nothing mysterious about it. We were created to love - they is the true way we were created in God's image.

Remember love is god to the world, God is love to the believer. What the wordl sometimes considers love is detestable to God.

Self love or Pride is the god to this world. Selfless love or true love only occurs when we stop focusing on ourselves and focus on Him.

[sup]16 [/sup]All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, [sup]17 [/sup]so that the servant of God[sup][a][/sup] may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Does it say 'Only' or 'All Scripture'?

So doctrine, which is scriptural, is to equip for every good work.

Cool. All Safeways are equipped for to selling all the food we need to be healthy, too, but that does not mean Albertson's and Costco are not.

aspen2, you are proving the criticism levelled at your thinking, it is likely to be wordly love that you are so keen on championing at the expense of God's word.

Nope. I just recognize the work of the Holy Spirit in the world and the hearts of His followers - God's work here is never in vain. Not sure why fundamentalist like to discount it in favor of fatalism.

stephen colbert???? Really??? He knows nothing of which he speaks. The poor will always be, mostly in our day intitlement minded so called adults.This country's longest war is the war on poverty, 40 years with Billions and Billions spent to what end? This nation does more than any other to help the poor. Many just want to stay on the dole, for life.You quoted a comedian, how apropos!

What do you know about Stephen Colbert's personal relationship with God? He happens to be a devout Catholic. Were does Jesus put conditions on our service to our neighbor?

 

[brightmorningstar]

Aspen2,

Love is selflessness.

Still not necessarily love as God sees it. There are atheists and humanists that love selflessly.
Remember love is god to the world, God is love to the believer. What the wordl sometimes considers love is detestable to God.

Self love or Pride is the god to this world. Selfless love or true love only occurs when we stop focusing on ourselves and focus on Him.

Without the correct doctrine how are you going to test the spirit to see whether it is God?

16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God[a] may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Does it say 'Only' or 'All Scripture'?

So all scripture is for equipping in good works. So tell me how good works are not loving?

Cool. All Safeways are equipped for to selling all the food we need to be healthy, too, but that does not mean Albertson's and Costco are not.

So are Sainsbury’s. And your point? All scripture is for equipping for every good work. Yes?

Nope. I just recognize the work of the Holy Spirit in the world and the hearts of His followers –

The question is do you?
　

 

[Strat]

I agree - unity at all costs does not preserve the truth. However, we can work together to serve our neighbors even if we do not agree on doctrine.

And what proof do you have that this is not happening...i'm sure there are many who feel like you do... i as a working man lay awake at night some times wondering how i am going to make it and then get up tired with another day of labor confronting me while others who have never worked a day in their life are secure because of hand outs and government assistence and no small amount of pity.I am working towards a better future while these people will die as they are because first they are content to do so and second they have never had to face the consequences of bad choices...just today i was working in a public housing area...it was about 98 degrees and while i was working i saw people sitting around sipping beer and chit chatting and hanging out...young men and women perfectly able bodied....this top you i guess is what Jesus had in mind.

stephen colbert???? Really??? He knows nothing of which he speaks. The poor will always be, mostly in our day intitlement minded so called adults.This country's longest war is the war on poverty, 40 years with Billions and Billions spent to what end? This nation does more than any other to help the poor. Many just want to stay on the dole, for life.You quoted a comedian, how apropos!

I would be willing to bet that Colbert lives better than anyone here and feels absolutely no guilt about it but thinks working Americans should pay more

 

[aspen]

Aspen2,
Still not necessarily love as God sees it. There are atheists and humanists that love selflessly.

We disagree. We cannot know who is being justified and sanctified and eventually saved. We have no idea. We also do not know who is loving selflessly - who knows the motive of the Christian or the atheist, besides God? I know, you want a sure thing - 'if you study the Bible and say the right words you will be saved! You can take that to the bank!'. God doesn't work that way.

Without the correct doctrine how are you going to test the spirit to see whether it is God?

Same way the disciples did. They went to the Holy Spirit in prayer, not the Bible.

So all scripture is for equipping in good works. So tell me how good works are not loving?

Good works are loving. Reading scripture is no guarantee that you will preform good works, nor is it the only source for doing good works - the Bible is not God.

So are Sainsbury’s. And your point? All scripture is for equipping for every good work. Yes?

You understand my point. 1st Timothy 3:15 is not exclusively endorsing the Bible as the only way to know love or God.

The question is do you?

My faith in Jesus is not accountable to you.
　

And what proof do you have that this is not happening...

What is not happening? People overlooking their differences and working together? Well, I work at a Protestant outreach - we overlook our differences everyday in order to promote the gospel by building relationships with the kids we serve.

Or are you asking me to prove that compromises in doctrine are not occurring when people choose to love each other and their neighbors without asserting what they know to be truth? Let me know how I am supposed to prove a negative and I will get back to you.

i'm sure there are many who feel like you do... i as a working man lay awake at night some times wondering how i am going to make it and then get up tired with another day of labor confronting me while others who have never worked a day in their life are secure because of hand outs and government assistence and no small amount of pity.

Why don't you quit your job and take your place beside the lazy people you are describing? It is not an attractive proposition, is it? But, I guess it beats spending your life at the grindstone and envying the poor - that only leads to bitterness. If you really are that worked up about having to work, while others loaf, no one is stopping you from quitting and joining them - who knows? Perhaps it will convert your jealousy into gratitude.


I am working towards a better future while these people will die as they are because first they are content to do so and second they have never had to face the consequences of bad choices...

Really?? Poor people have never had to face the consequences of their bad choices? Well, besides being POOR?

just today i was working in a public housing area...it was about 98 degrees and while i was working i saw people sitting around sipping beer and chit chatting and hanging out...young men and women perfectly able bodied....this top you i guess is what Jesus had in mind.

Next time this happens, I suggest that you approach one of the able body men and trade your job for his beer. Then, have a seat and start sipping! Of course, you will have to also give up your contempt for those lazy bums too..........

I would be willing to bet that Colbert lives better than anyone here and feels absolutely no guilt about it but thinks working Americans should pay more

Probably. If not, at least you can get some more jealousy/resentment time from imagining that he does

 

[Sr.Brandon]

Why assume a lie when a plain reading of Acts 6 clearly demonstrates disunity?

----------You know I'm right.

Actually Andy, I disagree with your interpretation of Acts 6. I believe disagreements will come up but how you and the rest of the people handle the disagreement shows unity or not. Since the group in Acts 6 didn't just break up into hellinist denomination and jewish denomination, I believe they showed unity. However, if you wish to discuss this further will you please do so in a different thread?
If you see disunity how do you believe we can solve it? Or is the lack of the mention of such a solution in your post because you believe there is no solution?

 

[IanLC]

I'm Pentecostal-Holiness but I have attended a Baptist church with some of my family and friends. We really do not see division on doctrinal issues. Yes some of my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ in the Baptists persuasion may not speak in tongues but if we are in prayer and I do they do not doubt my sincerity or faith. We do not see divide on on name or denomination but we believe in the unity of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Strat]

Aspen,you are without a doubt this site's most prolific hypocrite,as much wailing and howling as you do about love...you love an idiot with a needle in his arm but hate a man with a hammer or wrench in his hand doing something useful...you are an idiot liberal moron as well as a God hating apostate and heretic....there i said it...now run to the mods and whine like the little girl you are and get me banned.

 

[IanLC]

Strat I don't know what aspen has done too you. But in love I'm going to say if you feel so strongly private message aspen and do not blast aspen in public in front of everyone. You are not exemplifying in this instance the love of Christ and you cast stone on aspen calling him/her a hypocrite and your aare acting hypocritical yourself by going about this in this way. Think about brother!!