unrepentant error and heresy are punishable by death Elijah killed the false prophets of baal
But it’s the state that administers justice
Not the church
Virgin birth?
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unrepentant error and heresy are punishable by death Elijah killed the false prophets of baal
But it’s the state that administers justice
Not the church
In the us bill of rights it is permitted but it is a condemned Masonic doctrine along with separation of church and state
The state cannot be moral or just without the influence of Christ and His church
and you have no right or authority to say whatever you like or to publish any garbage like porn, new age nonsense, or error or heresy that you feel like, only in the communist country of the United States do they allow freethinkers and other nonsense
in a catholic kingdom where the king and queen rule in the place of Jesus and Mary there could be only justice and morals and catholic faith allowed!
are you a Freemason? Those are there principals, liberty, equality, and fraternity!
jaybird
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your mixed up, but dont worry i get mixed up a lot to. this quote is from the First Council of Constantinople (381) after the first had been amended.
we have already had this discussion on the church fathers, i put up the quotes and you ignored them. why should i do it again?
jaybird
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Elijah was an anointed prophet of the Most High. you cant just go out and start killing people and justify it by saying your a church leader.
@mjrhealth @Jane_Doe22
Knock your crap off, theefaith. You were just challenged about your repetitious posts, and then you claimed that this was a unique topic that someone prompted you to start - you lied. And now, you're even changing subjects yourself, showing that you have no intent about staying focused on one specific subject matter, in order to be reasonable and fair.
You are really becoming an absolute nuisance, inundating, and thus, monopolizing, the forums with your one-sided and non-negotiable positions.
You have never conceded a single point to anyone, on any matter. You're becoming nothing but a narrow-minded, indoctrinated upstart.
I've even been trying to avoid you, but, like I said, you're the OP on every single thread on all the latest posts, and every post is the exact same topic.
I'm a mood away from reporting you.
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Possibly, but I wonder if the mods may find it interesting, policy wise, how inconvenient it can be to have one person be allowed to start so many threads, in such a short period of time?
jaybird
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Irenaeus (115-190)
Against Heresies 3.9.1
[T]he Lord Himself handing down to His disciples, that He, the Father, is the only God and Lord, who alone is God and ruler of all…
Against Heresies 5.18.2
And thus one God the Father is declared, who is above all, and through all, and in all. The Father is indeed above all, and He is the Head of Christ; but the Word is through all things, and is Himself the Head of the Church; while the Spirit is in us all, and He is the living water, which the Lord grants to those who rightly believe in Him, and love Him, and who know that “there is one Father, who is above all, and through all, and in us all.”
Irenaeus can’t be a trinitarian, since he repeatedly exalts God as superior to Jesus and he identifies the Father alone as the Most High
Tertullian (160-215)
Against Praxeas 9
[T]he Father is not the same as the Son, since they differ one from the other in the mode of their being. For the Father is the entire substance, but the Son is a derivation and portion of the whole, as He Himself acknowledges: “My Father is greater than I.” In the Psalm His inferiority is described as being “a little lower than the angels.” Thus the Father is distinct from the Son, being greater than the Son, inasmuch as He who begets is one, and He who is begotten is another; He, too, who sends is one, and He who is sent is another; and He, again, who makes is one, and He through whom the thing is made is another.
no question Tertullian sees the Father as greater than the Son. The Father is greater, if the Father is greater they are not co equal and therefore he is not a trinitarian.
Origen (185-254)
On First Principles 1.3 (Greek Fragment 9)
The God and Father, who holds the universe together, is superior to every being that exists, for he imparts to each one from his own existence that which each one is; the Son, being less than the Father, is superior to rational creatures alone (for he is second to the Father); the Holy Spirit is still less, and dwells within the saints alone. So that in this way the power of the Father is greater than that of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and that of the Son is more than that of the Holy Spirit, and in turn the power of the Holy Spirit exceeds that of every other holy being. [14]
again the Father alone is the Most High, the Father is superior, the Son and Spirit are lesser than the Father. This is not the trinity
these statements here make it crystal clear that Irenaeus, Tertullian, and Origen were clearly not trinitarians.
mare they refering to the divine nature or the persons?
and Christ in His human nature is obedient to the father
heb 10:6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
is Jesus doing his own will or that of the father?
BreadOfLife
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You need to stop using wikipedia as your main source of Church History.
Go to the original documents FROM the Church.
In the text of the ORIGINAL Nicene Creed adopted at the Council of Nicaea, it STILL describes the TRINITY - the Father is God, the Son is God and the Holy Spirit is God.
Of the Son, it states:
"GOD from GOD, Light from Light, TRUE GOD from TRUE GOD, begotten, not made, OF ONE BEING with the Father."
Of the Holy Spirit, it states:
"We believe in the Holy Spirit, THE LORD, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father. With the Father and the Son he is WORSHIPPED and GLORIFIED."
The ONLY difference here was the Filioque Clause - and the phrase "of one beoing" was changed to "Consubstantial" - which means the SAME thing.
Once again - you've put your foot in your mouth . . .
jaybird
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you know this is not true. the spirit was never part of the equation until the next council. the spirit was never part of the Arias contro. you know this.
jaybird
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this is not the original, this is the nicene creed of 381, for the 100th time its an amendment.
this is the original creed of 325
We believe in one God,
the Father almighty,
maker of all things visible and invisible;
And in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the Son of God,
begotten from the Father, only-begotten,
that is, from the substance of the Father,
God from God,
light from light,
true God from true God,
begotten not made,
of one substance with the Father,
through Whom all things came into being,
things in heaven and things on earth,
Who because of us men and because of our salvation came down,
and became incarnate
and became man,
and suffered,
and rose again on the third day,
and ascended to the heavens,
and will come to judge the living and dead,
And in the Holy Spirit.
the spirit is not listed as a co equal and therefore there is no trinity. there is no reason for the spirit to be mentioned because no one is arguing about the spirit. the whole point of this council is the Arius contro which is about Jesus, is He begotten, is He co equal. the spirit is never part of the discussion.
here are a few more sites who all agree on the original 325 creed
https://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Nicene_Creed
https://www.theopedia.com/nicene-creed
What is the Nicene Creed of A.D. 325 and A.D. 381? | NeverThirsty
Creed of Nicaea 325 - Greek and Latin Text with English translation
BreadOfLife
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And this is the DANGER when people who aren't qualified to assess the complexities of Early Church writings decide to fumble around and make a mess - which is exactly what YOU'VE done here.
Let's bgin with Origen.
It’s interesting that you should quote some of Origen’s heretical and heterodox work – instead of his faithful writings, as I did.
Using YOUR own favorite source, Wikipedia, it immediately explains how this work from Origen, On the First Principles or De Principiis was re not only heterodox, but outright heresy by Early Church Fathers such as Jerome. It even explains how Tyrannius Rufinus edited and rewrote it because he thought it had been sullied by heretics – so he omotted all of the heretical parts. Jerome included them in HIS version.
In the end, many of Origen’s teachings, referred to as “Origenism” were condemned as heretical.
STRIKE ONE. . .
As for Tertullian's "quote" - which you completely took OUT of context - let's see what he was REALLY saying.
First of all - he is laying out the CATHOLIC doctrine of the Trinity in this document you quoted from, Against Preaxeas. He discusses in great detail how the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are distinctly different PERSONS - but ONE in essence.
What you FAILED ito include in your quote was the text that followed what you posted:
"Thus the Father is distinct from the Son, being greater than the Son, INASMUSH as He who begets is one, and He who is begotten is another; He, too, who sends is one, and He who is sent is another; and He, again, who makes is one, and He through whom the thing is made is another."
In other words, Einstein - he is talking about the ROLES of the Trinity. The ROLE of the Father is greater than the ROLE of the Son because HE sends the Son. In essence - they are ALL ONE GOD - and God cannot be greater than Himself.
And, although Tertullian, like Origen eventually went into heresy - this isn't conbsidered one of his heretical writings.
STRIKE TWO . . .
Finally - your cherry-picking of text from Irenaeus to paint him as a Unitarian would have him rolling in his grave . . .
Whereas, we don't have extant writings of Irenaeus descriptively defining the Trinity, MANY of his writings discuss the ROLES (there's that word again) of the Trinity.
"This is the rule of our faith, the foundation of the building, and what gives support to our behavior.
God the Father uncreated, who is uncontained, invisible, one God, creator of the universe; this is the first article of our faith.
And the second is: The Word of God, the Son of God, our Lord Jesus Christ, who appeared to the prophets according to their way of prophesying and according to the dispensation of the Father. Through him all things were created. Furthermore, in the fullness of time, in order to gather all things to himself, he became a human being amongst human beings, capable of being seen and touched, to destroy death, bring life, and restore fellowship between God and humanity.
And the third article is: The Holy Spirit, through whom the prophets prophesied, and our forebears learned of God and the righteous were led in the paths of justice, and who, in the fullness of time, was poured out in a new way on our human nature in order to renew humanity throughout the entire world in the sight of God."
STRIKE THREE - you're OUT . . .
BreadOfLife
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WRONG.
I just quoted from the ORIGINAL Nicene Creed, which calls the Holy Spirit, "The Lord" - who is WORSHIPPED and GLORIFIED with the Father and Son. Only GOD is to be worshipped . . .
jaybird
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And this is the DANGER when people who aren't qualified to assess the complexities of Early Church writings decide to fumble around and make a mess - which is exactly what YOU'VE done here.[/QUOTE]
Making statements like this calling me names just makes it look like you are being a sore looser.
im not using wiki, but I think its odd that you have so much hatred against them, do you think there is some anti Catholic conspiracy going on at wiki or something? Very strange but probably just a distraction tactic as you have trouble facing opposition head on.
And in the end your whole defense is that Origen didnt write these things? Thats not much of an argument. In the end didnt you guys pretty much condemn everythng of Origen anyway?
and now we got the “out of context” defense, this one is classic. When ever you get proved wrong by someone, just accuse them of being out of context. Lets take a look at how out of context works. Tertullian says the Father is greater, but through the “magic” of “out of context” we can change that to mean the Father is NOT greater???
out of context equals micky mouse logic where I come from
and none the less Ireneus has the Father as above all and the head of Christ.
the bottom line is that if any of these guys had used trinity language such as the three persons being co equal, which they did not, the trinity doctrine would have formed much earlier.
Making statements like this calling me names just makes it look like you are being a sore looser.
im not using wiki, but I think its odd that you have so much hatred against them, do you think there is some anti Catholic conspiracy going on at wiki or something? Very strange but probably just a distraction tactic as you have trouble facing opposition head on.
And in the end your whole defense is that Origen didnt write these things? Thats not much of an argument. In the end didnt you guys pretty much condemn everythng of Origen anyway?
and now we got the “out of context” defense, this one is classic. When ever you get proved wrong by someone, just accuse them of being out of context. Lets take a look at how out of context works. Tertullian says the Father is greater, but through the “magic” of “out of context” we can change that to mean the Father is NOT greater???
out of context equals micky mouse logic where I come from
and none the less Ireneus has the Father as above all and the head of Christ.
the bottom line is that if any of these guys had used trinity language such as the three persons being co equal, which they did not, the trinity doctrine would have formed much earlier.
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