Virgin Mary Had Other Children After Jesus

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BreadOfLife

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Speaking of an ARK, which is A VESSEL...
Doesn't matter WHAT the Vessel IS...
A Ship, a Box, A heart, A soul, A person, A Nation, A Tribe, A Cup, A Womb...

The Scriptural and Spiritual Understanding IS:
God has Dictated what a Vessel Is:

It is God who directs what HE desires be PUT in a Particular Vessel...And When and Why "the WHAT" IN a Vessel should Remain IN the Vessel, For How Long, and IF what is IN the Vessel should COME OUT and Why.

Once "what" was "in" A Vessel...comes Out of the "Vessel"... the Vessel becomes "insignificant" <---> and the "signifance" becomes the "What", that "Came Out", of the Vessel.

Ark - Vessel Ship; Noah entered with family...
Came Out...saved...
Ship now irrelevant...place unknown.

Ark - Vessel Box; Ten Commandments of God...
Came Out...told to the Hebrews, Tribes of Israel, the World...Saved many...
Box now irrelevant...place unknown...

Ark - Place of Enslaved Jews;
Came Out of Enslavement...Many Jews Saved.
Place now irrelevant...place remains...but NOT Enslaved Jews.

Ark - Womb of A Virgin Betrothed woman, named Mary.
Word of God, came forth out of Gods Mouth in Heaven, in a body Prepared of God, in the Bodily "Likeness" AS an earthly man, having, FLESH, blood, bones, (LIKE the body Earthly men have). Yet NOT an Earthly being from Dust, or from A Seed of Earthly people.

After 9 months...(the timeframe) "what" was IN the Womb "ARK"
Came Out of the Womb "Ark".
The Word of God, that Came Out "IS the Signifance".
The Ark "Womb" is no longer signifiant TO the World.
The WOMB of the woman, became "significant" to the woman's "husband", a godly man, who would know his wife, be fruitful and multiply.
The WOMB of the woman, died with the rest of the FLESH and blood of the woman, rotting away in her grave, Returning to dust, from whence her body came, fulfilling Scripture.
Her Body, her Womb...no longer Seen.

Ark - Vessel Heart. Natural of A natural man.
Holds the natural spirit, of a natural man.
BY the agreement with such a man with the Lord God, and By the Power of the Lord God...
The OLD Natural Heart, spirit, TRUTH is Cut Off aka; Circumcised...
A "new" Vessel-"ark", (Heart, sprit, truth); is Given the Individual, By the Power of God, who IS Christ.
And the Power of God/ Christ;
And the SEED of God/ Christ;
And the Spirit of TRUTH/Christ/God/Almighty
Dwell WITH "in" that man...Forever
No timeframe for "that" Ark- New Vessel, to become Emptied.

If you Follow Scriptural Doctrine, you should have Learned;
*)God did not plant His SEED in Mary's Womb.
*) God sent a Body (without His Christ reputation) to Mary's Womb.
*) Jesus exited Mary's Womb...The Son of God...not the SEED of God.
*) Jesus was Not Revealed "The Christ", until well after His Disciples learned of Him, being The Christ.(which the Disciples learned Jesus is the Christ...supernaturally from God...not FLESH and blood men)
*) After Jesus' Body Returned To Heaven with His Glorious Christ "Reputation"...
*) On the day of Pentecost ... per a Usual Jewish Lawful custom of OF Godly Jews gathering in Jerusalem to celebrate Pentecost;
Christ Believers were gathered together;
BY the named Specific were: Jesus' chosen Disciples, Mary and many other believers in Jesus the Christ...at which Time..."They" became Filled with the Holy Spirit; signifying;
Them receiving: their Circumcised "New Vessel/Ark/ Heart ... And SEED of God...
Which ...Births a persons NEW spirit..
And:
SEALS that person ONCE and Forever unto The Lord God Almighty.

Mary's WOMB, was used for a specific purpose. The purpose was fulfilled.
What WAS in her WOMB came forth, and IS what Is Signifiant...The WORD of God, which Remains and Shall Never Fade Away.
Her Womb, is no loner signifant. It is dead and rotting, returning to dust, with the rest of her earthly body, as Scripture teaches, what is out of the dust, returns to the dust.

Glory to God,
Taken
And ALL of your examples PROVE my point:
That NT fulfillments are ALWAYS more perfect and glorious than their OT Types - without exception.

The OT Type is always imperfect compared to the NT Fulfillment.
There ends the lesson . . .
 

BreadOfLife

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One mediator between God and man, and it's not Mary or another man, because they are merely humans. We don't pray for Mary'or a saint to pray for us. We pray in the name of Jesus.
We are commanded in Scripture to pray for one another (James 5:16, 1 John 5:16).

Have YOU every prayed for anybody?
Has anybody ever asked YOU to pray for THEM?
WHY
do you do it if they can simply go directly to God in the name of Jesus??
 

Renniks

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Have YOU every prayed for anybody?
Has anybody ever asked YOU to pray for THEM?
WHY
do you do it if they can simply go directly to God in the name of Jesus??
That's very different from praying to a human being. I can still go directly to God. I don't bow down to a dead person to get to God.
 

BreadOfLife

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That's very different from praying to a human being. I can still go directly to God. I don't bow down to a dead person to get to God.
I don't bow down to dead people, either. I ask my brothers and sisters in Christ in Heaven to pray for me.
They're ALIVE in the presence of God.

However - don't ever claim that you don't pray to human beings.
Every time you ASK something of somebody - you have PRAYED to them.

Definition of the word “PRAY”:
Merriam-Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary:


Full Definition of pray
transitive verb

1:
entreat, implore —often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea<pray be careful>

intransitive verb
1:
to make a request in a humble manner


This is a legal, juridical term that is used in the court system and police records.
 

BreadOfLife

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"1: to make a request in a humble manner."
Which is exactly what ya'll are doing when you say "Hail Mary" and then proceed to make a request from her. You are praying to a human being.
And YOU pray to people every day.

As I already proved to you - "Pray" simply means "to ASK".
 

Taken

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And ALL of your examples PROVE my point:
That NT fulfillments are ALWAYS more perfect and glorious than their OT Types - without exception.

The OT Type is always imperfect compared to the NT Fulfillment.
There ends the lesson . . .

Oh Good grief, much knowledge and understanding was Given and Hidden from OT men... newly formed man...same applies to new born baby's ...not news, and have never seen you making that point.
There begins the Facts.

Glory to God,
Taken
 

Taken

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Virgin Mary Had Other Children After Jesus
^ OP

We know Mary was A mother to other children.

We know Joseph and Mary were Betrothed (promised to each other/ aka, engaged) by Contract, that was not Broken.

We know Joseph and Mary were Espoused (wed), one to another.

We know consummation did not take place until After Jesus' birth.

We know for at Least 12 years Mary and Joseph were both living as husband and wife.

We know God Commanded husband wives to be fruitful and multiply.

We know God taught prohibitions of mankind to have sex with...which Did not apply to Joseph and Mary.

To make up, what is Not in Scripture and claim it is a fact, is turning a TRUTH into a lie.

The Truth of prohibitions are IN Scripture, but NOT one who teaches Mary's perpetual virginity... has Offered one proof of Scriptural evidence, of Mary being excluded or excepted Forever.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

BreadOfLife

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Oh Good grief, much knowledge and understanding was Given and Hidden from OT men... newly formed man...same applies to new born baby's ...not news, and have never seen you making that point.
There begins the Facts.

Glory to God,
Taken
Ummmmm, show me ONE OT Type that is more glorious and perfect that its NT fulfillment.
THAT'S the whole point . . .
 

BreadOfLife

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Virgin Mary Had Other Children After Jesus
^ OP

We know Mary was A mother to other children.
We know Joseph and Mary were Betrothed (promised to each other/ aka, engaged) by Contract, that was not Broken.
We know Joseph and Mary were Espoused (wed), one to another.

We know consummation did not take place until After Jesus' birth.

We know for at Least 12 years Mary and Joseph were both living as husband and wife.
We know God Commanded husband wives to be fruitful and multiply.
We know God taught prohibitions of mankind to have sex with...which Did not apply to Joseph and Mary.

To make up, what is Not in Scripture and claim it is a fact, is turning a TRUTH into a lie.

The Truth of prohibitions are IN Scripture, but NOT one who teaches Mary's perpetual virginity... has Offered one proof of Scriptural evidence, of Mary being excluded or excepted Forever.

Glory to God,
Taken
WRONG.

We don't know anything about your first two claims above in RED.

As for your last remark in RED - YOU are guilty of the lie because YOU are "making up" things about Mary that are not in Scripture.
Nowhere is she name as the mother of ANY other child but Jesus. NOWHERE . . .
 
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Renniks

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I don't bow down to dead people, either. I ask my brothers and sisters in Christ in Heaven to pray for me.
They're ALIVE in the presence of God.

However - don't ever claim that you don't pray to human beings.
Every time you ASK something of somebody - you have PRAYED to them.

Definition of the word “PRAY”:
Merriam-Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary:


Full Definition of pray
transitive verb

1:
entreat, implore —often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea<pray be careful>

intransitive verb
1:
to make a request in a humble manner


This is a legal, juridical term that is used in the court system and police records.
Lol, quit being ridiculous. Asked something from a friend is nothing like what we mean by prayer. We don't hail them either.
And YOU pray to people every day.

As I already proved to you - "Pray" simply means "to ASK".
Quit being ridiculous. No one who says they are going to go say a prayer means they are going to go ask their neighbor for a dollar. Prayer to God and to Catholics to Mary is a form of worship, not just a request.

What the Catholic claim:
"Mary's response to God engages her in the plan of human salvation through motherhood of Jesus. The second half of the Hail Mary is an intercessory prayer developed in the Church's tradition - a prayer where we ask Mary to pray for us and our needs. Because she has given the world Jesus, Mary is the Mother of God."

First, nothing in scripture makes Mary the literally mother of God. Jesus always existed. Second, nothing in scripture says Mary has anything to do with salvation of humans. And nothing in scripture says we should ask Mary to pray for us. All un biblical traditions.
 

BreadOfLife

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Lol, quit being ridiculous. Asked something from a friend is nothing like what we mean by prayer. We don't hail them either.

PLEASE tell me you're not this dense . . .

"Hail" is NOT what the angel said. The Greek word used in Luke 1:28 is khah'-ee-ro, which means "be glad" or "rejoice".
"Hail" is an ENGLISH word which, by the way, is ALSO just a greeting.
Quit being ridiculous. No one who says they are going to go say a prayer means they are going to go ask their neighbor for a dollar. Prayer to God and to Catholics to Mary is a form of worship, not just a request.

What the Catholic claim:
"Mary's response to God engages her in the plan of human salvation through motherhood of Jesus. The second half of the Hail Mary is an intercessory prayer developed in the Church's tradition - a prayer where we ask Mary to pray for us and our needs. Because she has given the world Jesus, Mary is the Mother of God."

First, nothing in scripture makes Mary the literally mother of God. Jesus always existed. Second, nothing in scripture says Mary has anything to do with salvation of humans. And nothing in scripture says we should ask Mary to pray for us. All un biblical traditions.
If you want to have a serious conversation - then you'll have to stop lying.
Catholics don't worship Mary. It is idolatry to worship ANYBODY or ANYTHING other than God.
The following is straight out of the Catechism of the Catholic church:

I. "YOU SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD YOUR GOD AND HIM ONLY SHALL YOU SERVE"
2084 God makes himself known by recalling his all-powerful loving, and liberating action in the history of the one he addresses: "I brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage." The first word contains the first commandment of the Law: "You shall fear the LORD your God; you shall serve him. . . . You shall not go after other gods."5 God's first call and just demand is that man accept him and worship him.

2085 The one and true God first reveals his glory to Israel.6 The revelation of the vocation and truth of man is linked to the revelation of God. Man's vocation is to make God manifest by acting in conformity with his creation "in the image and likeness of God":
There will never be another God, Trypho, and there has been no other since the world began . . . than he who made and ordered the universe. We do not think that our God is different from yours. He is the same who brought your fathers out of Egypt "by his powerful hand and his outstretched arm." We do not place our hope in some other god, for there is none, but in the same God as you do: the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.7
2086 "The first commandment embraces faith, hope, and charity. When we say 'God' we confess a constant, unchangeable being, always the same, faithful and just, without any evil. It follows that we must necessarily accept his words and have complete faith in him and acknowledge his authority. He is almighty, merciful, and infinitely beneficent. Who could not place all hope in him? Who could not love him when contemplating the treasures of goodness and love he has poured out on us? Hence the formula God employs in the Scripture at the beginning and end of his commandments: 'I am the LORD.'"8


Nice TRY - but I will expose you ate every turn when you choose to LIE.

Finally - as to your heresy regarding Mary NOT being the Mother of God . . .
Mary is the Mother of Jesus, who IS God - ergo, she is the Mother OF God.
She is NOT the Mother of the Trinity but she is absolutely the Mother of God (Jesus).

Matt. 2:11
On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped him. Then they opened their treasures and presented him with gifts of gold, frankincense and myrrh.

John 2:1-2
On the third day a wedding took place at Cana in Galilee. Jesus’ mother was there, and Jesus and his disciples had also been invited to the wedding.

Acts 1:14
They all joined together constantly in prayer, along with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brothers.

John 19:25
Near the cross of Jesus stood his mother, his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene.

Luke 1:31-32
Behold,
you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name him Jesus. o He will be great and will be called Son of the Most High, and the Lord God will give him the throne of David his father,
 
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Taken

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Ummmmm, show me ONE OT Type that is more glorious and perfect that its NT fulfillment.

Your point is a more glorious NEW Testament.
Scripture say a "Better Testament".
You show your own point in Scripture.

My point was about Knowledge and Understanding...being hidden in the OT and Revealed in The NT.
 

Taken

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Nowhere is she name as the mother of ANY other child but Jesus. NOWHERE . . .

Ok, so you say, according to Scripture Mary Is ONLY the Mother of Jesus?
And Mary IS NOT the Mother of anyone else?

Correct?
 

Renniks

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Finally - as to your heresy regarding Mary NOT being the Mother of God . . .
Mary is the Mother of Jesus, who IS God - ergo, she is the Mother OF God.
She is NOT the Mother of the Trinity but she is absolutely the Mother of God (Jesus).
Being the earthly carrier of Jesus doesn't make her God's mother. God has always existed. This is just basic Christian theology. God was never born. Jesus was born physically, but not brought into existence by physical birth. So calling her the mother of God is incorrect.
 

101G

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Being the earthly carrier of Jesus doesn't make her God's mother. God has always existed. This is just basic Christian theology. God was never born. Jesus was born physically, but not brought into existence by physical birth. So calling her the mother of God is incorrect.
Greeting,
correct, she only carried flesh and blone with blood,and Mary was not the Lord's nature concieved Mother,
Mary was only a surrogate "BIRTH" mother to the flesh that was made in her, not the Spirit,JESUS himself, for the spirit that was in that flesh came from heaven. only flesh and blood can a woman birth. spirits are given from the eternal Spirit. supportive scripture, Isaiah 42:5 "Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein" spirits are given by God, lets see it in our Lord's manifestation in flesh. Isaiah 9:6 "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace".

what was born is Flesh, the "Son of God", that child, the OUTER MAN, what was his flesh that he took on. the INNER MAN was from above "spirit", title Son of man.

so Mary is not the Mother of God, for God has no mother nor father,

PICJAG.
 
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BreadOfLife

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Your point is a more glorious NEW Testament.
Scripture say a "Better Testament".
You show your own point in Scripture.

My point was about Knowledge and Understanding...being hidden in the OT and Revealed in The NT.
NT fulfillments REVEAL the OT Types.
That's my point . . .
 
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BreadOfLife

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Being the earthly carrier of Jesus doesn't make her God's mother. God has always existed. This is just basic Christian theology. God was never born. Jesus was born physically, but not brought into existence by physical birth. So calling her the mother of God is incorrect.
WRONG.
What YOU are espousing is heresy.

there were many heresies and perversions in the Early Church that were dealt with at the Early Councils.
The FIRST Council (Jerusalem) dealt with the Judaizers.
The Council of Nicaea dealt with the Arians.
The Council of Ephesus in 431 dealt with the Nestorian Heresy - which is YOUR heresy of choice.

This heresy claimed that Jesus was NOT God and that God merely dwelt within Him - as a temple.
This is where the Doctrine of the Hypostatic Union was defined. The Hypostatic Union of Christ states that He is FULLY Divine and FULLY Human - and those 2 natures are INDIVISIBLE.

Jesus was born - FULLY God and FULLY Man.
Mary gave birth to the GOD-Man (Theanthropos) - NOT simply a man.
 

Grailhunter

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Not all Catholics believe that only they are saved (although they have softened that a little) but it is an official doctrine. Most hold Mary (Miriam) in reverence and pray to her and other saints. But we all have things we have to explain. The Protestants do not pray to people, but their religions were started 1450 years after Christ (most even centuries later)….by men…by men. The names of men are associated with many Protestants denominations. Men that started religions…started denominations with newly translated Bibles….translated by men 1400 years after the fact…who were alien to the culture….alien to the time period, and at best learning the biblical languages.

The truth is Protestant fundamentalism saves, and that is what is important. But it is not because of the men that started the religions or their Bibles. When the Holy Bible was printed in the 1500’s the Protestants took it and read it. What they read and what they believed could save them….the scriptures can lead to that if the spirit is willing. But disagreements arose. So with Bibles in hand they began to start their own denominations. Most of the divisions and splintering has been historically documented, so there are explanations as to why they split up. But the Protestants were not the first to cause divisions.

The scriptures can lead to salvation, no matter who reads them. From the early years of Christianity (100 ad) even before the scriptures were available to read by individuals, they heard the word of God and could be saved. Hearing was important because most of them could not read. Today, individually, we know far more than what they did. They were like children that heard what they heard and believed. Except, if they believed differently, their first thought was not to start a new religion. The reason for this solidarity, they only had so many details…once the details came to the surface … disagreements began. <I have the right scripture! No! No! I have the right scripture! I have ten scriptures that prove I am right! And I have ten scriptures that really prove I am right!> So arguing over the scriptures is nothing new. Today there are so many denominations, and like back then there are free-lance Christians…. non-denominationals number in the millions.

But these denominations are not alien to each other….they believe Yeshua is the Son of God...the savior…most are baptized…most go through communion…so most go along with the processes of salvation. Arguments over the elements and processes of Salvation, and the authority of the Church have been in play from the very beginning. Back in that day, there were some that had favorite Apostles and some had issue with Paul’s claim to being an Apostle. Today we recognize the authority of all the Apostles in the Bible. But still some have favorites.

As far as salvation, it is probably good advice to do what the scriptures tell you to do. As far as morality? The Bible and every denomination teaches morality, but Christ knew we would mess that up too, so He told us two rules, that were the guiding spirit of all morality, love God and love each other…do all things in love, the details will work themselves out.

Most people are not students of history, and many will look back with a critical eye….just like people in the future will look back at us with criticism. Some of the history of the Catholic Church is ugly…atrocities. That happens, the German people and Japanese people as well as socialist and communist states have to live with a history of blood on their hands and millions murdered. The history of the world is full of this. We would like to think that God’s word would instill a wisdom far above society but as can be seen, we are slow learners. The civil rights movement and the woman suffrage movement are proof that there are things that we are slow to learn. Nearly a disgrace that society has to teach us.

When Protestants look back at the history of the Catholics and other religions that existed after the first century, all they see is bad. They do not understand the things the Catholics believed and the sacraments that developed. They do not know of the thousands of interactions that God had with all the people during those centuries. The divine visitations and the messages given and the relationships made. It is not just the Church it is the people that lived and worshipped through the centuries. The beliefs and rituals of the Catholic Church are largely based on these interactions. Did they error in some of these? You can be sure of it. But their intent was to show reverence to the Trinity, to organize the Church, and to keep it whole.

The Protestants are not going to understand all that, they may believe in angelic messages or tongues today, but disbelieve anything occurred between 100ad and 1500ad. So they are not going to understand where the Catholics are now, because so much of the history of God is missing from their religion. With their rejection of Catholic history, they also reject Christian history and God’s involvement in those time periods. In effect they dismiss God. They have the Bible, but that only tells 50 years of the story. Christianity did not stop after the close of the Bible. God did not take a 1450 year hiatus…millions saved and thousands of interactions documented. The Trinity was not gagged by the turn of the first century or the close of the Bible. The Trinity continued to speak to people in different ways, not always repeating what was said before, but new information and instructions that the Apostles were not ready for, as Christ told them. So God continued His fellowship with his children. He did not sit back and wait for the Protestants to find the Bible, to set things straight. Nor is the Trinity ignorant of the passage of time and our ability to understand.

The printing of the Protestant Bible…what did it do for them? In God’s infinite wisdom, in His words were and are salvation…but as far as the details, the Protestants were never to agree. The Catholic Church has stood the test of time. As the oldest Christian Church on earth, they have fought to keep the faith to one Church, while the Protestants fractured it into tens of thousands of denominations and the fracturing continues….

Now, who is right and who is wrong? No matter how much of God is in a religion, it also has the heart of Man. The leaven in the dough. Yes we are like leaven, we have a corrupting affect but what would the Church be without people. The Catholic Church has been guilty of the worst of atrocities, corruption, and lust for power. But the fracturing of the Church could be called an attack on Christ’s Church. What is worse? While we were sinners God loved us and loves us now and that is a good thing, because we have surely made a mess of things.

As I see it we are all in the same boat. If there is a perfect denomination, how would you ever know? Sure, someone is going to claim they know THE TRUTH! And another Christian down the street is going to say the same thing. But isn’t that what started us down the wrong path to begin with? Where is the wisdom? The tenants of Christianity are the only wisdoms. Faith, love, forgiveness, and grace is what God is waiting for, to see if we get it. If you cannot love your fellow Christians, what have you learnt from the Bible? What you think you know, is a grain of sand, but how you apply that, is the kingdom of God. Your beliefs can be seriously flawed, but if you apply faith, love, forgiveness, and grace, you will not be far off.

I fellowship with several denominations and I expect them to be good, but not perfect. I respect their beliefs and stand with them and sing praises to God. As we can see from the many beliefs, the details are debatable. A discussion among friends, it should be. You can know the scriptures backwards and forwards, study it at the language level, know the history, culture, and time period, but that still produces more questions. The details are endless but Christian salvation is simple, and if you do not get hung up on the details the application of Christianity is simple….do all things in love and Christ will be right beside you.
 
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Renniks

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This heresy claimed that Jesus was NOT God and that God merely dwelt within Him - as a temple.
This is where the Doctrine of the Hypostatic Union was defined. The Hypostatic Union of Christ states that He is FULLY Divine and FULLY Human - and those 2 natures are INDIVISIBLE.

Jesus was born - FULLY God and FULLY Man.
Mary gave birth to the GOD-Man (Theanthropos) - NOT simply a man

I never said Jesus was not fully God and fully man. But God is more than Jesus and Mary didn't give birth to God's divine nature (which was part of who Jesus was), IT ALWAYS EXISTED. Mary was not the mother of God, she bore Jesus, not the Father, and not the Spirit. "God" incorporates a lot more than just Jesus' physical being. In order to be the mother of God, she would have had to give birth to the Father, Son and Spirit and they would have had to come into existence in her womb. When my mother carried me in her womb, God formed my soul and spirit and body within her. I didn't exist before conception in any form. That is what birth entails, the creation of a complete human, body, soul and spirit. Jesus already existed for eternity in soul and spirit. They were never born or formed within Mary, because there was never a moment when they didn't exist. To believe otherwise is heresy.
 
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