Johann
Well-Known Member
Spot on brother-that, plus the fact that God is not a God of wrath, only love, if God is wrathful, or show His holy wrath, He is "petty"
Walking In Faith By the Word of God!
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amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
exactly . THEY teach A love , but its not of GOD at all . They omit HIS SEVERITY . they have humanized GOD
with a love that cometh of man , of the world , and not of GOD .
And they are fast growing in this idea that all paths lead to GOD . THEY see it as LOVE
and yet IT DENIES HAVING TO BELIEVE THAT JESUS IS THE CHRIST .
Rather it gives the impression that so long as folks are kind and do some good things , ALL IS WELL whatever religoin they follow .
YET as you well know , all the other religoins DO NOT RECOGNIZE JESUS as THE CHRIST .
OH they might name him , but its another jesus they follow .
THUS i leave us with johns words . NOW remember JOHN often spoke of love . LETS see what HE had to write .
If one believes NOT that JESUS is the CHRIST , they are ANTI CHRIST . John made no bones about it .
HE and paul and others would all be saying this end time progressive inclusvity love , IS A LIE .
ITS NOT LOVE . WHERE IS THE LOVE in A LIE . A lie that will damn a soul . IT DONT EXIST .
THEY wont focus on the REAL LOVE OF GOD .
cause to do that , YOU have to quoate the whole of john three sixteen and other verses .
AND Their version of love , dont agree with the BELIEVE NOT PART .
Instead it rejoices in a lie . A lie of a love that cannot save them . IT REJOICES IN A LIE .
CHARITY dont do that . CHARITY would and does REJOICE IN THE TRUTH , not lies , not inquity .
THEY Dont even know the LOVE OF GOD . YET holler all day , GOD IS LOVE as they spout more and more lies
to the people .
I just read on "an or the Angel of the LORD". I've bookmarked the site, I'm looking forward to exploring!
Much love!
Johann
Well-Known Member
Walking In Faith By the Word of God!
Let us truly walk in faith, according to the Word of God, according to what God tells us, and according to His Son Jesus.
In this passage quoted above, we should believe Him when He says,
Hebrews 12:10-13 KJV
10) For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
11) Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
12) Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;
13) And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.
His chastening is effective. So there will never be need of Him breaking His promise,
Hebrews 13:5-6 KJV
5) Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
6) So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me.
Much love!
Johann
Well-Known Member
Johann
Well-Known Member
Johann
Well-Known Member
Johann
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Behold
Well-Known Member
Based on this.... by Miller.
Is he teaching : "Pre-destined" elect, as Calvin teaches it, or is He affirming that God wants all to be saved and does not choose, whom will be, but offers the Cross of Christ as "to as many as will come'" as Paul/John teaches it??
From Miller :
""""""""""""Accordingly, I think it is safe to say that there are no theological "pressures" upon you to believe that "God arbitrarily choose some to be saved and others to be damned". Even the strongest 'pro-election' advocates (i.e. Calvinists/Augustinian/Reformed types) still affirm that God's choice was a rational, righteous, wise, love-based, and moral one--but that the reasons were simply not disclosed to us.
And I further argue, friend, that, given the lack of data upon which to 'conduct an investigation' of God's decisions process (smile), we have either two choices:
1.Avoid thinking about it abstractly, and look/focus instead on its 'face inside history' (a la Luther) and the explicit statements about God's global intentions ("not desiring that any should perish…"); or
- Retro-terpolate to it (but only a little--our epistemic base is pretty thin there), on the basis of clearly-revealed data about God's good and trustworthy heart (i.e., the Cross; the inclusion of the have not's and were not's in that group who will end up being heirs of the whole New Universe with our Lord Jesus (!); and personal experiential patterns of 'no-disclosure, trust Him anyway, later-disclosure, vindication of His decision'). """""""""
Johann
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Behold
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Johann
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Oh, from Christianthinktank? I don't believe he is a Calvinist
The third question deals with Romans 9, so let's dig into that here...
There are many theological questions involved in this passage, but only a couple of them touch on your question.
As I understand your question/objection, it is basically that:
Free choice (concerning one's eternal destiny) is contradicted by the examples of Pharoah's 'hardening' and Paul's "vessel" argument (in Romans 9).
You mention the word "predestination" (which appears in chapter 8, but not in the chapter under discussion here--chapter 9). In chapter 8, it is clearly linked to 'foreknowledge' but its meaning in the passage has little to do with 'free choice'--it is rather a statement of guarantee, that believers will eventually conformed to the image of the Son...a different meaning than that commonly give to it in popular usage.
In popular usage, 'predestination' is often used to mean something more like 'election' or 'selection' (more to the point).
The issue of election/predestination per se has several layers of issues:
philosophical (e.g., how 'free' does will have to be, in order to be called 'free'? can free will even exist?)
systematic theology (e.g., could an absolutely sovereign, initial Ultimacy 'grant' freedom to another agent--and how do they 'interact' in time)
biblical theology (e.g., God chooses the 'poor/weak of the world to be rich in faith'--how "open" is this category? are only classes elected?)
exegetical (e.g, does a specific passage support a particular theological/philosophical view of freedom/election?)
YOUR question deals with an exegetical issue--does Romans 9 teach that some people are pre-selected and 'forced' to go to heaven or to hell?
By itself, I personally (following many others of a conservative 'bent') do not believe that Romans 9 has anything at all to do with eternal destiny of individuals---that it only deals with matters within history and/or service to God. (I have been thinking about this passage for 30+ years, but am still not 'finished'...smile). A summary of my understanding of this passage, in its context, would include the following major elements:
First of all, the passage doesn't deal with eternal destiny at all:
"We bring another assumption to this text which skews our hearing of it in a particular direction. Because of certain inherited theological traditions, we tend to hear this text in terms of predestination and eternal destiny. This theological tradition holds that our eternal destiny has been predetermined. The inevitable question to such a view is the one which Paul's hypothetical reader asks: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" (Rom 9:19)...This question has validity only if Paul is in fact concerned here with the matter of individuals' eternal destiny. On close reading of the passage, however, it becomes clear that he is not speaking about salvation and eternal destiny, but about God's calling of individuals to service, and God's use of events and persons in the accomplishment of his redemptive purposes, namely the salvation of both Jews and Gentiles" [HSOBX:559f]
"Neither in Malachi (1.2-3) nor in Paul's use of it (in Romans 9.13-15) is there then any warrant for the idea that God has determined in advance the eternal destinies of either the people of Israel or the people of Edom. The historical situations of the two nations, their 'election' or 'rejection', are but temporary evidences of God's sovereign freedom with which he moves history toward his redemptive purposes. "God so loved the world' (Jn 3:16), including Jacob and Esau, Israel and Edom, Jew and Gentile." [HSOBX:561]
"From this brief look at these crucial chapters (Rom 9-11), one point emerges clearly. Paul's focus is upon God's selection of the nation Israel in its historic role, not upon specific individuals for eternal salvation. Even the choice of individuals like Jacob was for their tasks in God's historic program with his people, not their personal salvation." [TH:NCP:76]
But, if you have time-here is a critique-
A Critique of Glenn Miller's Defense of PST
Glenn Miller is an IT business executive with a Th.M. in Theology who has a website, called The Christian Think Tank , which is hailed by ma...
formerfundy.blogspot.com
"When he discusses the Egyptian pharaoh, Paul's concern is not his personal salvation....Whether or not they (for example, the pharaoh) receive salvation is an issue separate from their selection for a task" [TH:NCP:198]
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quietthinker
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Behold
Well-Known Member
This that he is explaining , is where Calvin initially jumped into the Cross rejecting deep, and never came back to the surface of Truth.
The heart of Calvin's ERROR is ...."I can't understand what Foreknowledge means....."so, i'll teach it as " God Pre-destined".
And he uses "Vessels fitted for destruction" as one of his "proofs", again without understanding that God isn't choosing them to be those DAMNED,...but God's Foreknowledge knew they would end up so, before they were born.
Johann
Well-Known Member
I gave you a critique from a blogger, and don't personally endorse his teachings-but don't throw the baby with the water out.
Behold
Well-Known Member
Whomever.. it is, that you quoted.......understands that "God's Foreknowledge" does not mean "Pre-Destined, elect".
How can anyone pretend they understand...>"GOD is LOVE"< and then teach that "God pre-destines some to Hell, and they have no way out". "they are not allowed to Believe in Jesus".... "they are born to go to Hell, because God decided this before they were born".
Johann
Well-Known Member
--and personally, I don't give a hoot what Calvin is saying-you should know me better by now.
Johann
Well-Known Member
Like I've said-I don't give a hoot about Calvin and his teachings-you should know me better by now.
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