This is not talking about water baptism water saves no one Born of water is to be born of flesh through woman and the Bag of water Baptism is required but it is baptim of the heart by the holy spirit We are saved by grace and grace alone the water Jesus was dipped in had nothing to do with the Holy spirt The holy spirit descented on him in the likness of a Dove the Water was just symbolic of the washing away the old way and bringing in the new way which is Jesus ChristThe theif on the cross wasn't baptisted yet Jesus said he would see him in heaven why was this ???? because he believed upon Christ repented for his sin and was thus baptised by the Holy spirit Water is not required it does nothing it is only symbolic that you are washing away your old ways and now accept the new the living waters of Jesus Christ You can do this on a battle field in your bathtub in your car driving down the road.Accept Christ as your savior repent of your sin and you are baptised in the holy spirit of Christ. NO WATER REQUIRED
!!!! Warning !!!!....What Many "Minsters" Don't Tell You!
- Thread starter arenamistica
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
(kriss;25932)
This is not talking about water baptism water saves no one . Born of water is to be born of flesh through woman and the Bag of water
So you are telling me that in this verse "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." John 3:5Jesus is saying that it is absolutely required that in order to enter God's kingdom you must be "born of flesh through woman and the Bag of water". I will not comment on this, just think how absurd it sounds...(kriss;25932)
We are saved by grace and grace alone the water Jesus was dipped in had nothing to do with the Holy spirt The holy spirit descented on him in the likness of a Dove the Water was just symbolic of the washing away the old way and bringing in the new way which is Jesus Christ
No one says you are not saved by Grace my brother, don't confuse things, but along with salvation come some steps a believer must take, which ARE WRITTEN IN THE BIBLE AND YOU ARE NOT TO QUESTION THEM! You always say that we should not listen to men's words but God's. Why don't you do that now?(kriss;25932)
The theif on the cross wasn't baptisted yet Jesus said he would see him in heaven why was this ???? because he believed upon Christ repented for his sin and was thus baptised by the Holy spirit
Obviously he didn't have the luxury or the time to step down from the cross and drop to the nearest river and get baptised now did he?(kriss;25932)
Water is not required it does nothing it is only symbolic that you are washing away your old ways and now accept the new the living waters of Jesus Christ
"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."You mean to tell me that this baptism that Paul considers a common ground among saved christians, a natural step everyone has taken, is symbolic...How faaar from the truth you are!!!So many verses I can throw here but you will not accept it so I won't bother. Water baptism IS required to be done just as it is participating in Jesus' death memorial every Sunday as Paul describes in 1 Cor. 11:23, 10:16 and as Jesus said "Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.", just as it is to have a holy life and keep the 4 fundamental things of a christian's life "And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.".Everything must be done according to the bible and not men's words, as you like to say and you are right. But one should practise what one teaches, don't you think?Praise God!
This is not talking about water baptism water saves no one . Born of water is to be born of flesh through woman and the Bag of water
So you are telling me that in this verse "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." John 3:5Jesus is saying that it is absolutely required that in order to enter God's kingdom you must be "born of flesh through woman and the Bag of water". I will not comment on this, just think how absurd it sounds...(kriss;25932)
We are saved by grace and grace alone the water Jesus was dipped in had nothing to do with the Holy spirt The holy spirit descented on him in the likness of a Dove the Water was just symbolic of the washing away the old way and bringing in the new way which is Jesus Christ
No one says you are not saved by Grace my brother, don't confuse things, but along with salvation come some steps a believer must take, which ARE WRITTEN IN THE BIBLE AND YOU ARE NOT TO QUESTION THEM! You always say that we should not listen to men's words but God's. Why don't you do that now?(kriss;25932)
The theif on the cross wasn't baptisted yet Jesus said he would see him in heaven why was this ???? because he believed upon Christ repented for his sin and was thus baptised by the Holy spirit
Obviously he didn't have the luxury or the time to step down from the cross and drop to the nearest river and get baptised now did he?(kriss;25932)
Water is not required it does nothing it is only symbolic that you are washing away your old ways and now accept the new the living waters of Jesus Christ
"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."You mean to tell me that this baptism that Paul considers a common ground among saved christians, a natural step everyone has taken, is symbolic...How faaar from the truth you are!!!So many verses I can throw here but you will not accept it so I won't bother. Water baptism IS required to be done just as it is participating in Jesus' death memorial every Sunday as Paul describes in 1 Cor. 11:23, 10:16 and as Jesus said "Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.", just as it is to have a holy life and keep the 4 fundamental things of a christian's life "And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.".Everything must be done according to the bible and not men's words, as you like to say and you are right. But one should practise what one teaches, don't you think?Praise God!
(kriss;25932)
. . . The theif on the cross wasn't baptisted yet Jesus said he would see him in heaven why was this ???? . . .
Ah, the thief's "gospel" rears it's head again !Many people are taught to doubt the need for water & Spirit baptisms because of Luke's account of the conversation between Jesus and a crucified thief (Luke 23:40-44)Taken in isolation, one could agree, but of course we mustn't do that, otherwise you can make the bible say anything so it becomes useless !People assume that "paradise" means heaven, and therefore the thief was sincere in his comments. Matthew and Mark's account of this dialogue both say that both of the thieves were speaking mockingly to Jesus at that precise time:-“He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God. The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth.” (Matthew 27:43-44)“Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him. And when the sixth hour was come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour.” (Mark 15:32-33) . . . did they both miss the point that one thief repented and had a great revelation of Jesus coming with a kingdom? (meanwhile his own disciples were in sorrow and fear, they didn't understand).If the thief was sincere, it would have been a comfort to Jesus at this time, but a true prophecy states
salm 69:20-21: Reproach hath broken my heart; and I am full of heaviness: and I looked for some to take pity, but there was none; and for comforters, but I found NONE. They gave me also gall for my meat; and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink.So what does Jesus' reply in Luke mean ?The word "paradise" is used figuratively for heaven elsewhere, but literally it means garden, where Jesus was buried; Mary later thought he was the gardener (John 19v41, 20v15). This would mean Jesus was saying that the thief would be buried also in the tombs in the garden. That would explain why Jesu says "Today", he wasn't in heaven that day. One might ask, would a thief be buried in an expensive tomb ?Possibly, Isaiah prophesies:-"And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death" (53v9)Maybe he had rich relations ?But whether the thief will or won't be saved makes no difference to the salvation message to people today!The most important point is, even if the thief was sincere and will enter heaven, he died before the New Covenant began ! Jesus, the Testator foirst had to die and be received before the altar in Heaven before God could come to dwell in people making them sons of God, saved from the separation Adam & Eve experienced.We are all called to follow Jesus in getting baptised and receive the anointing of His Spirit indwelling, whereupon a voice is heard:-“And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.” (Acts 2:4)In verse 33 Peter explained:-“Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear”Then when the crowd asked what they needed to do, Peter certainly did not tell them to do as the thief did and "call Jesus Lord" in order to be saved, rather he said:-"Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call." (Acts 2:37-39, see also 8:12-18, 10:44-48, 19:1-6; John 3:3-8).To tell people they are "saved" without this, is certainly a thief's gospel !
. . . The theif on the cross wasn't baptisted yet Jesus said he would see him in heaven why was this ???? . . .
Ah, the thief's "gospel" rears it's head again !Many people are taught to doubt the need for water & Spirit baptisms because of Luke's account of the conversation between Jesus and a crucified thief (Luke 23:40-44)Taken in isolation, one could agree, but of course we mustn't do that, otherwise you can make the bible say anything so it becomes useless !People assume that "paradise" means heaven, and therefore the thief was sincere in his comments. Matthew and Mark's account of this dialogue both say that both of the thieves were speaking mockingly to Jesus at that precise time:-“He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God. The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth.” (Matthew 27:43-44)“Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him. And when the sixth hour was come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour.” (Mark 15:32-33) . . . did they both miss the point that one thief repented and had a great revelation of Jesus coming with a kingdom? (meanwhile his own disciples were in sorrow and fear, they didn't understand).If the thief was sincere, it would have been a comfort to Jesus at this time, but a true prophecy states
salm 69:20-21: Reproach hath broken my heart; and I am full of heaviness: and I looked for some to take pity, but there was none; and for comforters, but I found NONE. They gave me also gall for my meat; and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink.So what does Jesus' reply in Luke mean ?The word "paradise" is used figuratively for heaven elsewhere, but literally it means garden, where Jesus was buried; Mary later thought he was the gardener (John 19v41, 20v15). This would mean Jesus was saying that the thief would be buried also in the tombs in the garden. That would explain why Jesu says "Today", he wasn't in heaven that day. One might ask, would a thief be buried in an expensive tomb ?Possibly, Isaiah prophesies:-"And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death" (53v9)Maybe he had rich relations ?But whether the thief will or won't be saved makes no difference to the salvation message to people today!The most important point is, even if the thief was sincere and will enter heaven, he died before the New Covenant began ! Jesus, the Testator foirst had to die and be received before the altar in Heaven before God could come to dwell in people making them sons of God, saved from the separation Adam & Eve experienced.We are all called to follow Jesus in getting baptised and receive the anointing of His Spirit indwelling, whereupon a voice is heard:-“And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.” (Acts 2:4)In verse 33 Peter explained:-“Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear”Then when the crowd asked what they needed to do, Peter certainly did not tell them to do as the thief did and "call Jesus Lord" in order to be saved, rather he said:-"Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call." (Acts 2:37-39, see also 8:12-18, 10:44-48, 19:1-6; John 3:3-8).To tell people they are "saved" without this, is certainly a thief's gospel !(TallMan;26037)
Ah, the thief's "gospel" rears it's head again !Many people are taught to doubt the need for water & Spirit baptisms because of Luke's account of the conversation between Jesus and a crucified thief (Luke 23:40-44)Taken in isolation, one could agree, but of course we mustn't do that, otherwise you can make the bible say anything so it becomes useless !People assume that "paradise" means heaven, and therefore the thief was sincere in his comments. Matthew and Mark's account of this dialogue both say that both of the thieves were speaking mockingly to Jesus at that precise time:-“He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God. The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth.” (Matthew 27:43-44)“Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him. And when the sixth hour was come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour.” (Mark 15:32-33) . . . did they both miss the point that one thief repented and had a great revelation of Jesus coming with a kingdom? (meanwhile his own disciples were in sorrow and fear, they didn't understand).If the thief was sincere, it would have been a comfort to Jesus at this time, but a true prophecy statessalm 69:20-21: Reproach hath broken my heart; and I am full of heaviness: and I looked for some to take pity, but there was none; and for comforters, but I found NONE. They gave me also gall for my meat; and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink.So what does Jesus' reply in Luke mean ?The word "paradise" is used figuratively for heaven elsewhere, but literally it means garden, where Jesus was buried; Mary later thought he was the gardener (John 19v41, 20v15). This would mean Jesus was saying that the thief would be buried also in the tombs in the garden. That would explain why Jesu says "Today", he wasn't in heaven that day. One might ask, would a thief be buried in an expensive tomb ?Possibly, Isaiah prophesies:-"And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death" (53v9)Maybe he had rich relations ?But whether the thief will or won't be saved makes no difference to the salvation message to people today!The most important point is, even if the thief was sincere and will enter heaven, he died before the New Covenant began ! Jesus, the Testator foirst had to die and be received before the altar in Heaven before God could come to dwell in people making them sons of God, saved from the separation Adam & Eve experienced.We are all called to follow Jesus in getting baptised and receive the anointing of His Spirit indwelling, whereupon a voice is heard:-“And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.” (Acts 2:4)In verse 33 Peter explained:-“Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear”Then when the crowd asked what they needed to do, Peter certainly did not tell them to do as the thief did and "call Jesus Lord" in order to be saved, rather he said:-"Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call." (Acts 2:37-39, see also 8:12-18, 10:44-48, 19:1-6; John 3:3-8).To tell people they are "saved" without this, is certainly a thief's gospel !
I used to think like that. I swear, your arguments are carbon copies of mine.. anyways, mine were a little more philosophical perhaps.. Then I learnt better. the Ritual of baptism is not necessary in the way you are interpreting it to be. Kind of like the ritual of marriage is not necessary for a marriage. If you have been locked in a high security prison, where they won't baptize you even after you've found Jesus, what are you to do? Purgatory would be the Catholic response, but I don't think you'd go for that doctrine, now would you? What happens when a friend of yours becomes a Christian, and she begins going to a church upon your suggestion, and they teach her she must be baptized to be saved just as you are teaching, and then, a few days before the ritual in her nice little crazy pentecostal church, she dies in a car accident? They still teach that she can't get to heaven, that she was simply caught in an unfortunate accident. Or worse, that she was actually such a heretic at heart that God saw it fit to kill her off.Do you shrug and say "well, that's just the way God intended it"?Please, open your eyes. :cool:
Ah, the thief's "gospel" rears it's head again !Many people are taught to doubt the need for water & Spirit baptisms because of Luke's account of the conversation between Jesus and a crucified thief (Luke 23:40-44)Taken in isolation, one could agree, but of course we mustn't do that, otherwise you can make the bible say anything so it becomes useless !People assume that "paradise" means heaven, and therefore the thief was sincere in his comments. Matthew and Mark's account of this dialogue both say that both of the thieves were speaking mockingly to Jesus at that precise time:-“He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God. The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth.” (Matthew 27:43-44)“Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him. And when the sixth hour was come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour.” (Mark 15:32-33) . . . did they both miss the point that one thief repented and had a great revelation of Jesus coming with a kingdom? (meanwhile his own disciples were in sorrow and fear, they didn't understand).If the thief was sincere, it would have been a comfort to Jesus at this time, but a true prophecy states
salm 69:20-21: Reproach hath broken my heart; and I am full of heaviness: and I looked for some to take pity, but there was none; and for comforters, but I found NONE. They gave me also gall for my meat; and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink.So what does Jesus' reply in Luke mean ?The word "paradise" is used figuratively for heaven elsewhere, but literally it means garden, where Jesus was buried; Mary later thought he was the gardener (John 19v41, 20v15). This would mean Jesus was saying that the thief would be buried also in the tombs in the garden. That would explain why Jesu says "Today", he wasn't in heaven that day. One might ask, would a thief be buried in an expensive tomb ?Possibly, Isaiah prophesies:-"And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death" (53v9)Maybe he had rich relations ?But whether the thief will or won't be saved makes no difference to the salvation message to people today!The most important point is, even if the thief was sincere and will enter heaven, he died before the New Covenant began ! Jesus, the Testator foirst had to die and be received before the altar in Heaven before God could come to dwell in people making them sons of God, saved from the separation Adam & Eve experienced.We are all called to follow Jesus in getting baptised and receive the anointing of His Spirit indwelling, whereupon a voice is heard:-“And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.” (Acts 2:4)In verse 33 Peter explained:-“Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear”Then when the crowd asked what they needed to do, Peter certainly did not tell them to do as the thief did and "call Jesus Lord" in order to be saved, rather he said:-"Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call." (Acts 2:37-39, see also 8:12-18, 10:44-48, 19:1-6; John 3:3-8).To tell people they are "saved" without this, is certainly a thief's gospel !I used to think like that. I swear, your arguments are carbon copies of mine.. anyways, mine were a little more philosophical perhaps.. Then I learnt better. the Ritual of baptism is not necessary in the way you are interpreting it to be. Kind of like the ritual of marriage is not necessary for a marriage. If you have been locked in a high security prison, where they won't baptize you even after you've found Jesus, what are you to do? Purgatory would be the Catholic response, but I don't think you'd go for that doctrine, now would you? What happens when a friend of yours becomes a Christian, and she begins going to a church upon your suggestion, and they teach her she must be baptized to be saved just as you are teaching, and then, a few days before the ritual in her nice little crazy pentecostal church, she dies in a car accident? They still teach that she can't get to heaven, that she was simply caught in an unfortunate accident. Or worse, that she was actually such a heretic at heart that God saw it fit to kill her off.Do you shrug and say "well, that's just the way God intended it"?Please, open your eyes. :cool:
No Tyrel of course this is not the case, that is why the thief on the cross was saved without getting baptised because he just didn't have the chance. If this was the case then one could call God unjust. Far be it!As I said earlier, you are saved and THEN you are baptised to declare the "death" of your old self, the self of sin. Baptism is not a prerequisite of salvation, it is a step AFTER you are saved by God's grace. Please read first and then reply
God bless you!
(Jonous;26041)
No Tyrel of course this is not the case, that is why the thief on the cross was saved without getting baptised because he just didn't have the chance. If this was the case then one could call God unjust. Far be it!As I said earlier, you are saved and THEN you are baptised to declare the "death" of your old self, the self of sin. Baptism is not a prerequisite of salvation, it is a step AFTER you are saved by God's grace. Please read first and then reply
God bless you!
I'm sorry.. did I miss something here? I agree with you. I was responding to Tallman..
No Tyrel of course this is not the case, that is why the thief on the cross was saved without getting baptised because he just didn't have the chance. If this was the case then one could call God unjust. Far be it!As I said earlier, you are saved and THEN you are baptised to declare the "death" of your old self, the self of sin. Baptism is not a prerequisite of salvation, it is a step AFTER you are saved by God's grace. Please read first and then reply
I'm sorry.. did I miss something here? I agree with you. I was responding to Tallman..
(Jonous;26041)
No Tyrel of course this is not the case, that is why the thief on the cross was saved without getting baptised because he just didn't have the chance. If this was the case then one could call God unjust. Far be it!As I said earlier, you are saved and THEN you are baptised to declare the "death" of your old self, the self of sin. Baptism is not a prerequisite of salvation, it is a step AFTER you are saved by God's grace.
The disciples, the believers in Acts 8:12-16 and the believers in Acts 19:5 were all baptised before they "received the Holy Spirit".If you havn't received the Spirit then you havn't received the grace or salvation, you are still "in the flesh", unregenerated.Jesus warns that MANY who call him "Lord, Lord" (i.e. they believe) will be told "I never knew you", because their beliefs were incorrect and their works were their own, not God's works in them." in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (1 Peter 3:20-21)Water baptism is the answer of a good conscience towards God and it is the first thing commanded to people professing repentance and desiring salvation.Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck (1Tim:1:19)
No Tyrel of course this is not the case, that is why the thief on the cross was saved without getting baptised because he just didn't have the chance. If this was the case then one could call God unjust. Far be it!As I said earlier, you are saved and THEN you are baptised to declare the "death" of your old self, the self of sin. Baptism is not a prerequisite of salvation, it is a step AFTER you are saved by God's grace.
The disciples, the believers in Acts 8:12-16 and the believers in Acts 19:5 were all baptised before they "received the Holy Spirit".If you havn't received the Spirit then you havn't received the grace or salvation, you are still "in the flesh", unregenerated.Jesus warns that MANY who call him "Lord, Lord" (i.e. they believe) will be told "I never knew you", because their beliefs were incorrect and their works were their own, not God's works in them." in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (1 Peter 3:20-21)Water baptism is the answer of a good conscience towards God and it is the first thing commanded to people professing repentance and desiring salvation.Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck (1Tim:1:19)
Similar threads
