Was Adam Imparted Free Will From The Beginning Of Creation?

[BeyondET]

So, you claim Jesus said "What I say to you I do not say to all" (thoughts of BeyondET and @Renniks), yet Jesus truly says "What I say to you I say to all" (Mark 13:37):; therefore, you LIE about the Word of God.

Furthermore, Jesus did not say "You eleven did not choose Me, but I chose you eleven" (thoughts of BeyondET and Renniks), yet Jesus truly says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16); therefore, you LIE about the Word of God, again.

Moreover, Jesus did not say "I did not choose you out of the world" (thoughts of BeyondET and Renniks purporting that it's not about salvation), yet Jesus truly says "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation); therefore, you LIE about the Word of God, yet again.

Now, let's look at who else beyond the 11 who Jesus tells that Jesus chose.

The disciples specifically identified Matthias and Joseph as two men who "accompanied us all the time" - see that it is all the time they were with Jesus as described here:

"'Therefore it is necessary that of the men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us - beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us - one of these [must] become a witness with us of His resurrection.' So they put forward two men, Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias." (Acts 1:21-23)

In the upper room occupied by Jesus' disciples who put forward Matthias and Joseph were Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon the Zealot, and Judas the son of James (Acts 1:13), and these disciples recognized Matthias and Joseph as disciples that were with them from the beginning, and not a single disciple contradicted Peter's prounouncement of "men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us - beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us".

Joanna, Susanna, Salome, Mary, and Cleopas and his traveling companion to Emmaus - every one of these individuals are mentioned in close temporal proximity to the time of supper in John chapters 13-17.

Thus, Matthias and Joseph are at least two more people beyond the eleven (and twelve for part of the supper) who are specifically identified at the supper covered in John chapters 13-17.

Lord Jesus Christ's words of "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and His words of "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) include all His own, His chosen persons, in all time, regardless of when such persons are born.

Still, no free will written in the creation account (Genesis 1:1-31 Genesis 2:1- 25 Genesis 3:1-24), with Paul in accord for he conveyed that Adam “not willingly” subjected creation to futility by eating of the tree forbidden for eating since Paul included all time prior to Paul’s birth by his writing “until now” (Romans 8:20-22).

“YHWH is righteous in all his ways and holy in all his works” (Psalm 145:17).

THE ALL KNOWING GOD (JOHN 16:30) GETS EXCLUSIVE CREDIT AND GLORY FOR MAN’S SALVATION (JOHN 3:3-8), AND MAN DOES NOTHING - NOT EVEN A CHOICE (JOHN 15:16).

The Redemption of Mankind through the Christ is certain, even before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:1-14).

"What I have said, that I will bring about; what I have planned, that I will do" (Isaiah 46:11).

No purpose of God's can be thwarted (Job 42:2).

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.

Your opening words pretty strong, look at your own log,

 

[Kermos]

Nope. I desire to show that God is just, unlike the monster god who damns people who have no choices.

The Apostle Paul under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit of God proclaims that God is the Potter, that the Potter molds vessels of mercy, and that the Potter molds vessels of wrath (Romans 9:20-23).

You and/or people like you under the inspiration of the flesh declare that the same Potter is a monster, essentially calling God an evil being, so people like you assert things like not being one that can ever serve the Potter.

In reality, the Potter is good, in fact, ONLY the Potter is good (Mark 10:18), so that makes you evil (Romans 3:8-10).

The evil being, you, call the good being, the Potter, evil, so you embrace deception.

Lord Jesus is God (John 20:28), so this means that Jesus is the Potter, and the Potter says "unless you believe that I AM, you will die in your sins" (John 8:24).

Still, no free will written in the creation account (Genesis 1:1-31 Genesis 2:1- 25 Genesis 3:1-24), with Paul in accord for he conveyed that Adam “not willingly” subjected creation to futility by eating of the tree forbidden for eating since Paul included all time prior to Paul’s birth by his writing “until now” (Romans 8:20-22).

“YHWH is righteous in all his ways and holy in all his works” (Psalm 145:17).

THE ALL KNOWING GOD (JOHN 16:30) GETS EXCLUSIVE CREDIT AND GLORY FOR MAN’S SALVATION (JOHN 3:3-8), AND MAN DOES NOTHING - NOT EVEN A CHOICE (JOHN 15:16).

The Redemption of Mankind through the Christ is certain, even before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:1-14).

"What I have said, that I will bring about; what I have planned, that I will do" (Isaiah 46:11).

No purpose of God's can be thwarted (Job 42:2).

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.

 

[Kermos]

In the book of Mark: chapter three and verse 14:

And He appointed the twelve: Simon (to whom He gave the name Peter)” and then verse 19 says, “and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed Him.”

John 6:68-71 Simon Peter answered, “Lord, who will we go to? You have the words of eternal life. We have come to believe and know that You are the Holy One of God!” Jesus replied to them, “Didn’t I choose you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is the Devil!” He was referring to Judas, Simon Iscariot’s son, one of the Twelve, because he was going to betray Him.

Jesus did not say He chose Judas unto salvation with "Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?” (John 6:70).

Jesus did say that He chose the eleven unto salvation with "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19) - Jesus even says this and "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) to all His own chosen believers in all time.

You prolificly exclude yourself from being Jesus' chosen.

You persist in your lack of repentance of you claim Jesus said "What I say to you I do not say to all" (thoughts of @BeyondET and Renniks), yet Jesus truly says "What I say to you I say to all" (Mark 13:37):; therefore, you LIE about the Word of God.

Furthermore, Jesus did not say "You eleven did not choose Me, but I chose you eleven" (thoughts of BeyondET and Renniks), yet Jesus truly says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16); therefore, you LIE about the Word of God, again.

Moreover, Jesus did not say "I did not choose you out of the world" (thoughts of BeyondET and Renniks purporting that it's not about salvation), yet Jesus truly says "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation); therefore, you LIE about the Word of God, yet again.

Now, let's look at who else beyond the 11 are part of the audience that Jesus includes among the people that Jesus chooses.

The disciples specifically identified Matthias and Joseph as two men who "accompanied us all the time" - see that it is all the time they were with Jesus as described in scripture previously presented to you. That's more than the eleven.

Still, no free will written in the creation account (Genesis 1:1-31 Genesis 2:1- 25 Genesis 3:1-24), with Paul in accord for he conveyed that Adam “not willingly” subjected creation to futility by eating of the tree forbidden for eating since Paul included all time prior to Paul’s birth by his writing “until now” (Romans 8:20-22).

“YHWH is righteous in all his ways and holy in all his works” (Psalm 145:17).

THE ALL KNOWING GOD (JOHN 16:30) GETS EXCLUSIVE CREDIT AND GLORY FOR MAN’S SALVATION (JOHN 3:3-8), AND MAN DOES NOTHING - NOT EVEN A CHOICE (JOHN 15:16).

The Redemption of Mankind through the Christ is certain, even before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:1-14).

"What I have said, that I will bring about; what I have planned, that I will do" (Isaiah 46:11).

No purpose of God's can be thwarted (Job 42:2).

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.

 

[Kermos]

"Yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified."


See the distinction between faith and works?

And yet, you try to make them the same thing.

Paul excludes the works of a person as a means to salvation while at the same time restricting salvation to people imparted belief/faith in Jesus (Galatians 2:16); however, Paul does not write that belief is not a work of God.

In fact, Paul wrote here that belief of a person in Jesus is a work of God "by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His work" (Ephesians 2:8-10).

Behold, Renniks, that Paul wrote "we are His work" (Ephesians 2:10).

Behold, Renniks, that Paul is in accord with Jesus "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent" (John 6:29).

Choosing is a work because the mind (or heart) is working on the choice. When a choice is announced, then the mind and muscles work to produce the words "I choose Jesus".

As I wrote before, you reject Jesus and do not receive Jesus' sayings - Jesus says "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day" (John 12:48)

Renniks, you think that choosing Jesus is requisite for salvation.

Believing is a work of God for the Word of God says "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent" (John 6:29).

While it's true that no one saves themselves, that's not what you think because YOU THINK A PERSON MUST DO A WORK OF CHOOSING JESUS, YET ANOTHER PERSON WITHOUT THE WORK OF CHOOSING JESUS GOES TO HELL.

THEREFORE, a guy that chose Jesus saves himself, yet a gal that did not choose Jesus condemns herself.

SO, the guy saved himself because without his choosing of Jesus, then he'd be just like that gal.

Still, no free will written in the creation account (Genesis 1:1-31 Genesis 2:1- 25 Genesis 3:1-24), with Paul in accord for he conveyed that Adam “not willingly” subjected creation to futility by eating of the tree forbidden for eating since Paul included all time prior to Paul’s birth by his writing “until now” (Romans 8:20-22).

“YHWH is righteous in all his ways and holy in all his works” (Psalm 145:17).

THE ALL KNOWING GOD (JOHN 16:30) GETS EXCLUSIVE CREDIT AND GLORY FOR MAN’S SALVATION (JOHN 3:3-8), AND MAN DOES NOTHING - NOT EVEN A CHOICE (JOHN 15:16).

The Redemption of Mankind through the Christ is certain, even before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:1-14).

"What I have said, that I will bring about; what I have planned, that I will do" (Isaiah 46:11).

No purpose of God's can be thwarted (Job 42:2).

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.

 

[Kermos]

Yeah that's called cooperating with God. It cannot happen without the Holy Spirit working on a person.

Your word "cooperating" still represents a "choice" by the human which is explicitly excluded by Jesus with "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16, includes salvation and sanctification) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).

That means that what you think is "the Holy Spirit working on a person" truly is NOT "the Holy Spirit working on a person". Scary, man!

Now, to remind you the context for the above.

Renniks, you think that choosing Jesus is requisite for salvation.

Believing is a work of God for the Word of God says "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent" (John 6:29).

While it's true that no one saves themselves, that's not what you think because YOU THINK A PERSON MUST DO A WORK OF CHOOSING JESUS, YET ANOTHER PERSON WITHOUT THE WORK OF CHOOSING JESUS GOES TO HELL.

THEREFORE, a guy that chose Jesus saves himself, yet a gal that did not choose Jesus condemns herself.

SO, the guy saved himself because without his choosing of Jesus, then he'd be just like that gal going to hell, that is, being unsaved.

WHICH means that being saved hinges entirely on the guy's choice.

Still, no free will written in the creation account (Genesis 1:1-31 Genesis 2:1- 25 Genesis 3:1-24), with Paul in accord for he conveyed that Adam “not willingly” subjected creation to futility by eating of the tree forbidden for eating since Paul included all time prior to Paul’s birth by his writing “until now” (Romans 8:20-22).

“YHWH is righteous in all his ways and holy in all his works” (Psalm 145:17).

THE ALL KNOWING GOD (JOHN 16:30) GETS EXCLUSIVE CREDIT AND GLORY FOR MAN’S SALVATION (JOHN 3:3-8), AND MAN DOES NOTHING - NOT EVEN A CHOICE (JOHN 15:16).

The Redemption of Mankind through the Christ is certain, even before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:1-14).

"What I have said, that I will bring about; what I have planned, that I will do" (Isaiah 46:11).

No purpose of God's can be thwarted (Job 42:2).

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.

 

[BeyondET]

that's not what you think because YOU THINK A PERSON MUST DO A WORK OF CHOOSING JESUS, YET ANOTHER PERSON WITHOUT THE WORK OF CHOOSING JESUS GOES TO HELL.
.

Do what where did the poster say someone is going to hell??

 

[Renniks]

The Apostle Paul under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit of God proclaims that God is the Potter, that the Potter molds vessels of mercy, and that the Potter molds vessels of wrath (Romans 9:20-23).

Yawn. So extremely predictable... I swear you calvinist all read from the same playbook, and it's not the Word
Go look at where Paul got this from, it's not an irresistible molding, just the opposite.

"Like clay in the hand of the potter, so are you in my hand, O house of Israel. and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned. and if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it."


Look! Free will!

 

[Renniks]

Your word "cooperating" still represents a "choice" by the human which is explicitly excluded by Jesus with "you did not choose Me, but I chose you"

Chosen for a job, not salvation. Next!

 

[Renniks]

In fact, Paul wrote here that belief of a person in Jesus is a work of God "by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

This is hilarious... What's your actually saying is" it's not a work but it is a work. "

Yes Grace is a gift.. salvation is a gift, but it must be accepted.

 

[Renniks]

Jesus did not say He chose Judas unto salvation with "Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?” (John 6:70).

Jesus did say that He chose the eleven unto salvation with "I chose you out of the world"

You just contradicted yourself.
You have no evidence whatsoever that one choosing is for salvation and the other one is for something else. Choosing them out of the world is not causing them to be saved. They all had to choose, just like Judas.

 

[Kermos]

Why would Jesus say that if we have no freedom to do anything?

That's like saying "wake up" to a dead man.

It's important to return to your above recent post.

While the following response post remains Spiritually true:

"He came up and touched the coffin; and the bearers came to a halt. And He said, 'Young man, I say to you, arise!' The dead man sat up and began to speak" (Luke 7:14-15).

Do you mean something like that, Renniks?

To answer your question, Jesus does things to bring glory to God, for example the above mentioned passage continues about the witnesses "they began glorifying God" (Luke 7:16).

You desire to glorify yourself by way of your purported free will choosing of Jesus. "Oh, look at what Renniks did, he chose Jesus".

Indeed, Jesus speaks to all believers in all time when He says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation). Behold, the Way (John 14:6).

Renniks, we need to look at the Apostle Paul's writing.

Paul made reference to Jesus raising dead men to everlasting life in Jesus with "you were dead in your trespasses and sins" (Ephesians 2:1), and this is the first state of being for all men because Paul wrote "in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience" (Ephesians 2:2).

In case you doubt men's first nature, Paul continues "Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest" (Ephesians 2:3).

Paul describes dead men (Ephesians 2:1)
walking, there as "children of wrath" (Ephesians 2:3).

But then Paul proclaims God's glorious and blessed work of enlivening dead men into everlasting life in Christ Jesus with "But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ, by grace you have been saved" (Ephesians 2:4-5).

Paul wrote a spiritually strong parallel to the account that Luke recorded of Jesus raising the dead man to life as recorded (Luke 7:14-16) - the very account that God had me proclaim to you in the above post.

For you, Renniks, the conclusion of Ephesians 2:5 is adulterated by your heart into "by your choice you have been saved" - and this is among the many of your heart's adulterations of scripture.

THE TRUTH (JOHN 14:6) IS THAT JESUS RAISES DEAD PERSONS TO EVERLASTING JOYFUL AND LOVING LIFE IN JESUS, and said persons have no choice in the matter. "That's like saying "wake up" to a dead man" (your words from your post quoted above).

Still, no free will written in the creation account (Genesis 1:1-31 Genesis 2:1- 25 Genesis 3:1-24), with Paul in accord for he conveyed that Adam “not willingly” subjected creation to futility by eating of the tree forbidden for eating since Paul included all time prior to Paul’s birth by his writing “until now” (Romans 8:20-22).

“YHWH is righteous in all his ways and holy in all his works” (Psalm 145:17).

THE ALL KNOWING GOD (JOHN 16:30) GETS EXCLUSIVE CREDIT AND GLORY FOR MAN’S SALVATION (JOHN 3:3-8), AND MAN DOES NOTHING - NOT EVEN A CHOICE (JOHN 15:16).

The Redemption of Mankind through the Christ is certain, even before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:1-14).

"What I have said, that I will bring about; what I have planned, that I will do" (Isaiah 46:11).

No purpose of God's can be thwarted (Job 42:2).

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.

 

[Renniks]

Paul made reference to Jesus raising dead men to everlasting life in Jesus with "you were dead in your trespasses and sins" (Ephesians 2:1), and this is the first state of being for all men because Paul wrote "in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience" (Ephesians 2:2).

In case you doubt men's first nature, Paul continues "Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest" (Ephesians 2:3).

Paul describes dead men (Ephesians 2:1)
walking, there as "children of wrath" (Ephesians 2:3).

But then Paul proclaims God's glorious and blessed work of enlivening dead men into everlasting life in Christ Jesus with "But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ, by grace you have been saved" (Ephesians 2:4-5).

Paul wrote a spiritually strong parallel to the account that Luke recorded of Jesus raising the dead man to life as recorded (Luke 7:14-16) - the very account that God had me proclaim to you in the above post.

For you, Renniks, the conclusion of Ephesians 2:5 is adulterated by your heart into "by your choice you have been saved" - and this is among the many of your heart's adulterations of scripture.

None of these scriptures cancel out the choice.

You conveniently forgot when Paul describes how one becomes saved in Ephesians 1.

12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Nothing Paul says makes irresistible Grace necessary for salvation.

 

[Kermos]

None of these scriptures cancel out the choice.


You conveniently forgot when Paul describes how one becomes saved in Ephesians 1.


12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.


Nothing Paul says makes irresistible Grace necessary for salvation.

You highlighted "When you believed" of Ephesians 1:13, and that "believed" is not manipulated by man but rather truly the "believed" is the work of God for Paul wrote "by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast for we are His work" (Ephesians 2:8-10).

Your purported "I chose to believe in Jesus" is boasting.

Still, Paul is in accord with Jesus the Word of God saying "this is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).

The Word of God says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).

Thus you are out of accord with the Word of God.

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.

 

[Kermos]

You are misdirecting “Not willingly”.

God created AND (then) made manKIND.

Man created ... by mans will? No, Gods Will.

Man made ..... by mans will? No, Gods Will.

Man made ..... For mans pleasure? No, For Gods Pleasure.

Man made ..... With Gods Will to reproduce? Yes

Man made ..... With Gods Will? No, with mans own Vanity.


Without mans OWN WILL, (not willingly), is notifying you, manKIND had NO SAY SO, in Deciding manKIND, WAS MADE;

* Having the capability to REPRODUCE OFFSPRING.

* Having the capability to MAKE HIS OWN CHOICES.


IOW - it is telling you the complete Opposite of what you are saying.


WITHOUT mans WILL, God MADE man TO Reproduce. (Men and Woman who do NOT want to reproduce...abstain from sex, wear condoms, take a pill, abort, commit suicide, etc.)


WITHOUT mans WILL, God MADE man TO HAVE HIS OWN WILL TO CHOOSE, that which is IN agreement With God, OR that which is NOT IN agreement With God.....which God Called mans VAINTY.


The subject to VANITY, is precisely Mans Ability to CHOOSE, which IS FREEWILL, which IS precisely How God “DECIDED” to MADE mankind.


Inanutshell.....God Reveals HIS ORDER and HIS WAY, HIS Preference FOR men TO Freely Choose, AND men CAN choose HIS WAY, or choose Their OWN WAY.


Nothing NEW. God has Revealed His WAY, since the beginning. Do this, Do that, Don’t Do this, Don’t Do that.....AND?


To Adam....Do eat of Every Tree in the Garden.

To Adam....DO NOT eat of the Tree of Good and Evil.


The Woman TOOK FROM the Tree.

The Woman OFFERED the Fruit she TOOK to the man.

The Man TOOK FROM the Woman the Fruit of the Forbidden Tree.

The Woman TOOK and Ate.

The Man TOOK and Ate.


The Woman’s TAKING, was the woman exercising her Freewill.

The Man’s TAKING, was the man exercising his Freewill.


The Woman Was punished For the Choice she made.

The Man Was punished For the Choice he made.


It’s a foreshadow LESSON to ALL of mankind.

God teaches a WAY that is Good and Profitable To & For ALL manKind.

ManKind can FREELY obey Gods Teaching, OR Freely Choose their OWN WAY.


Knowing Gods WAY, and Choosing to NOT obey Gods Way, HAS Negative Consequences. The Primary Negative Consequence IS:

God IS NOT WITH that individual.

* The LESSON IS: God NOT WITH an individual, IS THAT individual WILL suffer, at the hands of; Powerful Evil spirits and power positioned Wicked men.


Not a secret. Evil Spirits roam the earth, Are more powerful than manKind. Evil Spirit Search out the Weakest men, whom God IS NOT WITH, to convince them NOT being WITH God, is good.


Not a secret. Men sit in power seats Over other men. Kings, Presidents, Chairman, Military, Police, Teachers, Priests, Heads Of Households, etc.

Power sitting men exercising their OWN Freewill can BE Upright OR Wicked as they Exercise their authority and power OVER other men.


Not a secret. MANY MEN, have Exercised their own Freewill TO NOT BE WITH God, and NOT A SECRET... A man NOT WITH GOD, IN TURN, God IS NOT WITH that man.


* Read the HISTORICAL Scriptural Accounts...

Hebrews WITH God, God WITH the Hebrews.

Hebrews WITHOUT God, God WITHOUT the Hebrews.

Tribes of Israel, Same effect.

Gentiles, Same effect.


* WITH God, WITHOUT God, WITH God, WITHOUT God...

God WITH a man, God WITHOUT a man, God WITH a man, etc.


GEE.......IF ONLY? IF ONLY, a man COULD FREELY CHOOSE to HAVE GOD WITH him...24-7 FOREVER....



* HOW could that BE POSSIBLE? HOW since manKind is so wishy washy, changing his MIND from moment to moment, from day to day?


* How could that BE POSSIBLE FOR YOU @Kermos ???

Since YOU, apparently DO NOT HAVE FREEWILL TO MAKE YOUR OWN CHOICES?


Glory to God,

Taken

Taken, according to you, it's glory to you, not to God, but to you because without your flipping the switch ("I chose Jesus") in your own power, you'd be unsaved. Your post contradicts your signature lines.

A person who believes glory to God is a person who says in awe and reverence and joy and love "look at the wonderously blessed thing you did Jesus to save a wretch like me, thank you God".

Now, back to your futility st beginning of your post.

"For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God for we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now" (Romans 8:20-22).

Paul left no room for disputing to the timeframe for which "not willingly" applies, for Paul also wrote "we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now" (Romans 8:22), and the phrase "until now" is the timeframe's most recent limiting factor which memes that all times prior to "now" are included, so "the whole creation" includes the moment after God breathed into Adam's nostrils the breath of life (Genesis 2:7) until Adam ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 3:6); therefore, we can be certain that Paul includes the timeframe that Adam ate of the tree in the travailing/groaning because Paul wrote of all of this in the same passage, i.e. Romans 8:20-22.

Still, no free will written in the creation account (Genesis 1:1-31 Genesis 2:1- 25 Genesis 3:1-24), with Paul in accord for he conveyed that Adam “not willingly” subjected creation to futility by eating of the tree forbidden for eating since Paul included all time prior to Paul’s birth by his writing “until now” (Romans 8:20-22).

“YHWH is righteous in all his ways and holy in all his works” (Psalm 145:17).

THE ALL KNOWING GOD (JOHN 16:30) GETS EXCLUSIVE CREDIT AND GLORY FOR MAN’S SALVATION (JOHN 3:3-8), AND MAN DOES NOTHING - NOT EVEN A CHOICE (JOHN 15:16).

The Redemption of Mankind through the Christ is certain, even before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:1-14).

"What I have said, that I will bring about; what I have planned, that I will do" (Isaiah 46:11).

No purpose of God's can be thwarted (Job 42:2).

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.

 

[Kermos]

-

God has freewill.

Christ has freewill.


Man was made in their image/likeness.


Result? = Man has free will.


Reader..


The reason you can't stand at the Great White Throne, just before God sends you out of heaven because you are a Christ Rejector....and argue...>"But GOD......LISTEN !!!! you would not cause me to believe, you chose me not to believe...so, how can you now blame me for rejecting Christ, when you caused it....and send me to Hell..""""


See that ?

THAT CAN'T BE.


A.) John Calvin is a Demonice Bible Twisting Liar.

B.) Hyper Calvinism is of the Devil.

C.) Pre-Destined Elect Theology is a "doctrine of devils'. Hebrews 13:9

Man at the very beginning is missing attributes that God knew and knows. (John 21:17)

• God created the tree of the knowledge of good and evil - exposing that God possesses both knowledge and ability
  AND God made humankind in the image and according to the likeness of God (Genesis 1:26 and Genesis 1:27)
  
  BUT man lacked attributes at the outset
  
  BECAUSE after eating from the tree "the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked" (Genesis 3:7)
  
  WHICH is a radical change from man's prior condition, "the man and his wife were both naked and were not ashamed" (Genesis 2:25)
  
  MOREOVER man lacked additional attribute
  
  BECAUSE God said "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever" (Genesis 3:22)
  
  YET it is not written that humankind was created/endowed with God's nature
  
  CONSEQUENTLY when God said "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness" (Genesis 1:26), God did generously provide for and limit humankind
  
• God did generously provide attributes for man as well as withhold attributes from man
  
  BUT the Word of God expressed man's "act" which was to eat the fruit of the tree (Genesis 3:6, the second portion)
  
  WHILE simultaneously the Word is silent about man's "will" in the Creation account (Genesis 1-3)
  
  YET Scripture records man's "lust" with
  
  When the woman saw that the tree was good for food,
  and that it was a delight to the eyes,
  and that the tree was desirable to make [one] wise (Genesis 3:6, the first portion)
  
  AND in Genesis 3:6, the first portion precedes the second portion
  
  THUS the "lust" precedes the "act"
  
  AND the "act" precedes the punishment (Genesis 3:8-24)
  
  THEREFORE the "lust" precedes the punishment
  
  SO the "lust" occurred in man when man's state was between being created and the punishment, that is pre-punishment.

You adulterate "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness" (Genesis 1:26) into something along the lines of "Let Us make man in Our image with a freewill, according to Our likeness" (Behold's book of Second Guessing 1:26).

Still, no free will written in the creation account (Genesis 1:1-31 Genesis 2:1- 25 Genesis 3:1-24), with Paul in accord for he conveyed that Adam “not willingly” subjected creation to futility by eating of the tree forbidden for eating since Paul included all time prior to Paul’s birth by his writing “until now” (Romans 8:20-22).

“YHWH is righteous in all his ways and holy in all his works” (Psalm 145:17).

THE ALL KNOWING GOD (JOHN 16:30) GETS EXCLUSIVE CREDIT AND GLORY FOR MAN’S SALVATION (JOHN 3:3-8), AND MAN DOES NOTHING - NOT EVEN A CHOICE (JOHN 15:16).

The Redemption of Mankind through the Christ is certain, even before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:1-14).

"What I have said, that I will bring about; what I have planned, that I will do" (Isaiah 46:11).

No purpose of God's can be thwarted (Job 42:2).

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.

 

[Taken]

Taken, according to you, it's glory to you, not to God, but to you because without your flipping the switch ("I chose Jesus") in your own power, you'd be unsaved. Your post contradicts your signature lines.

Your misguided attempt to teach men do not have freewill, on its face is a load of nonsense.

Your personal accusation against me is disgustingly inaccurate and out of line.

You might consider climbing off your high horse and actually read the Lord Gods Offerings to mankind (FROM ADAM Forward) and a mans FREEWILL TO CHOOSE TO TAKE Gods Offerings......OT NOT!

I am NOT SUBJECT TO your narrow minded ignorance and lack of Spiritual Understanding.

...God Gives to mankind.
...God Offers for mankind to TAKE what God Gives.
...Mankind May FREELY CHOOSE, by the mans OWN WILL;
...To TAKE Gods Offering......OR NOT!


*** Gods FIRST FOOD offering to ADAM.

Gen 1:
[29] And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

*** Gods SECOND FOOD offering to ADAM.

Gen 2:
[8] And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
[9] And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

*** Every offspring from ADAM forward.

Gen 1:
[29] And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

*** Mans OFFERING to God.

Exod. 29:
[14] But the flesh of the bullock, and his skin, and his dung, shalt thou burn with fire without the camp: it is a sin offering.
[36] And thou shalt offer every day a bullock for a sin offering for atonement: and thou shalt cleanse the altar, when thou hast made an atonement for it, and thou shalt anoint it, to sanctify it.
Exod.30
[10] And Aaron shall make an atonement upon the horns of it once in a year with the blood of the sin offeringof atonements: once in the year shall he make atonement upon it throughout your generations: it is most holy unto the LORD.

*** Gods OFFERING to ALL of Mankind

John 6:
[51] I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

John 6:
[50] This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

Matt 26:
[26] And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.

Heb 10:
[10] By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Josh 24:
[15] And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

1 Thes 1:
[4] Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.


IF YOU HAVE NOT exercised your own Freewill, and TAKEN Gods Offering....that is YOUR burden to bear.....and has ZERO effect on me!

Glory to God,
Take

 

[Taken]

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.

Your goofy stance of “not imparted free will”, on its face is laughable.

God CREATED mans FORM, BODY, from dust of the earth.

Gen 2:
[7a] And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground...

The end....! Oh wait, there is that conjunctive AND word...

Gen 2:
and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Since YOU DO NOT have FREEWILL...WHO EXACTLY IS MAKING YOU sit, open your computer, think nonsense, then type the nonsense you think AGAINST Gods Word? According to Scripture, you are influenced by an Evil Spirit.

 

[Renniks]

You highlighted "When you believed" of Ephesians 1:13, and that "believed" is not manipulated by man but rather truly the "believed" is the work of God for Paul wrote "by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast for we are His work" (Ephesians 2:8-10).

That refers to grace and salvation, not faith. Grace is what allowed us to choose God. Through faith, which we must provide. God doesn't believe in himself for us. That's absurd.

 

[Kermos]

FREEWILL is the understanding, MEN MAKE THEIR OWN CHOICES!

Seriously, Do you have to SEE and READ the WORD FREEWILL to Understand, God gives men OPTIONS...

DO this, or DO that?

Don’t DO this, or Don’t DO that?


Beyond laughable.

I am picturing you in a restaurant looking over a menu, and waiting for the waitress to return and TELL YOU WHAT FOOD she will CHOOSE FOR YOU BECAUSE, you can not BY YOUR OWN WILL Freely Choose what you want to eat.....




LOL - Such a basic concept. The woman OFFERED Adam to eat of the Fruit she took from the tree. By your teaching, the Woman must have FREELY CHOSEN TO OPEN ADAMS MOUTH AND STUFF the FRUIT IN HIS MOUTH, MOVE HIS JAWS TO CHEW THE FRUIT, AND HELD HIS MOUTH SHUT UNTIL HE SWALLOWED THE FRUIT....

LOL - The woman freely chose to Offer the Fruit she took from the tree, and IF ADAM didn’t freely TAKE IT from the Woman....HOW DID ADAM RECEIVE and EAT the Fruit?

WHO EXACTLY MADE ADAM EAT THE FRUIT?




No kidding! Did God MAKE ALL MEN WITHOUT CHOICES, and thus ALL MEN CAN DO NOTHING BUT OBEY God?




You present the most asinine argument, defense and accusations I have EVER heard.


Obviously YOU, are waiting around for the Lord God TO FORCE His Gift of Salvation ON YOU....Since you are incapable BY YOUR OWN FREEWILL to TAKE His Offering.

Men do not have a free will, and there is no scripture that states that men have a free will.

Your post is devoid of scripture, so that means that all your thoughts that you expressed are devoid of scripture.

A word about your thoughts. It is written, "'For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,' declares the LORD. 'For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts.'" (Isaiah 55:8-9).

A word about adding to scripture as you have done. It is written "do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6), and the above explanation of your thoughts shows where you added to scripture.

Of the new Jerusalem, the Apostle John wrote "nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life" (Revelation 21:27) - notice that no one who practices lying gets in, and a human adding to scripture is the human lying.

Your free will assertion is referring to man attempting to override God's thoughts with man's thoughts, and that is evil.

Still, no free will written in the creation account (Genesis 1:1-31 Genesis 2:1- 25 Genesis 3:1-24), with Paul in accord for he conveyed that Adam “not willingly” subjected creation to futility by eating of the tree forbidden for eating since Paul included all time prior to Paul’s birth by his writing “until now” (Romans 8:20-22).

“YHWH is righteous in all his ways and holy in all his works” (Psalm 145:17).

THE ALL KNOWING GOD (JOHN 16:30) GETS EXCLUSIVE CREDIT AND GLORY FOR MAN’S SALVATION (JOHN 3:3-8), AND MAN DOES NOTHING - NOT EVEN A CHOICE (JOHN 15:16).

The Redemption of Mankind through the Christ is certain, even before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:1-14).

"What I have said, that I will bring about; what I have planned, that I will do" (Isaiah 46:11).

No purpose of God's can be thwarted (Job 42:2).

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.

 

[Kermos]

So does God work as much as he would prefer to in a believers life? Or does a believers willingness play into how much God can use him?

Let's see: Jesus said:



34 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.


Well how can this be? Jesus wants to do something but can't because people aren't willing?


39 vYou search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and wit is they that bear witness about me, xyou refuse to come to me that you may have life. yI do not receive glory from people. zI know that you do not have athe love of God within you. bin my Father’s name, and cyou do not receive me. dIf another comes in his own name, you will receive him.


Oh my! What in the world is Jesus complaining about?

People refusing to come to him? People refusing to receive him? How is this possible? Kerme must be right, right? Jesus must be wrong, then, I guess?

Jesus did not say that they could be willing, rather Jesus said they were not willing as recorded in Matthew 23:37.

Jesus' saying there solidifies:

The Natural Is The First State Of Being For All Mere Mortals

The Apostle Paul identifies every man starts out as a natural man with "the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual" (1 Corinthians 15:46).

The Apostle Paul states that man is accountable to God for man's own sin against God with "since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse" (Romans 1:20).

The Apostle Paul includes even the Gentiles in the Law "For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves" (Romans 2:14).

The Apostle Paul states that man is accountable to God for man's own crime against God with "we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law [comes] the knowledge of sin" (Romans 3:19-20).

The Apostle Paul explains that the commands of God are foolishness to man with a "natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised" (1 Corinthians 2:14)

The Apostle Paul declares that man's flesh opposes the Spirit of God with "the flesh desires against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh. For these are opposed to one another" (Galatians 5:17).

THE FIRST STATE OF MAN IS OPPOSITION TO GOD, AND THE ONLY WAY (JOHN 14:6) FOR MAN'S SALVATION IS FOR GOD TO BIRTH MAN ANEW (JOHN 3:3-8), NOT A WORK OF A CHOICE BY MAN, BUT STRICTLY THE WORK OF GOD IN MAN (JOHN 6:29).

Still, no free will written in the creation account (Genesis 1:1-31 Genesis 2:1- 25 Genesis 3:1-24), with Paul in accord for he conveyed that Adam “not willingly” subjected creation to futility by eating of the tree forbidden for eating since Paul included all time prior to Paul’s birth by his writing “until now” (Romans 8:20-22).

“YHWH is righteous in all his ways and holy in all his works” (Psalm 145:17).

THE ALL KNOWING GOD (JOHN 16:30) GETS EXCLUSIVE CREDIT AND GLORY FOR MAN’S SALVATION (JOHN 3:3-8), AND MAN DOES NOTHING - NOT EVEN A CHOICE (JOHN 15:16).

The Redemption of Mankind through the Christ is certain, even before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:1-14).

"What I have said, that I will bring about; what I have planned, that I will do" (Isaiah 46:11).

No purpose of God's can be thwarted (Job 42:2).

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.