Was Adam Imparted Free Will From The Beginning Of Creation?

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Kermos

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Do Christians have free will?
Image result for prca.com do christians have free will?
Mankind has free will to accept or reject the grace of God. Rejection of the gifts of God is called blasphemy of the Holy Spirit (gifts of grace, faith, life). The first who defined this teaching was John Cassian, 4th-century Church Father, and a pupil of John Chrysostom, and all Eastern Fathers accept it.

You keep running to voices other than the Word of God, just look at your last fee posts.

The Word of God pronounces:
  • "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16), so God chooses people to be friends (John 15:15 , the prior verse) and to believe (John 6:29) and to be born again (John 3:3-8) and for righteous works (John 3:21, John 15:5) and to repent (Matthew 11:25) and to love (John 13:34) and unto salvation (John 15:19).
  • "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation), so God chooses people unto salvation.
  • "What I say to you I say to all" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 13:37), so all the blessings of God mentioned above are to all believers in all time.

Christ defines us Christians, and each and every one of us Christians have our will bound to our Lord Jesus Christ who says "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5), so the Christian answer to your first sentence is no.

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.
 
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Rightglory

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You keep running to voices other than the Word of God, just look at your last fee posts.
As is the problem with all sola scripturists, they cannot support their view, personal opinions with scripture. Everyone is using scripture alone and there are thousands of interpretations. Everyone knows that the view you are trying to claim is in scripture actually is a man-made theory developed by John Calvin in the 16th century. That is hardly Apostolic. Even with the thousands of differing views, it is ONLY Calvinism that supports your view. Doesn't is seem strange that for 1500 years all Christian views held that man has a free will. A will that is independent of God's will. Do you think that the Holy Spirit got it wrong for 2000 years and ONLY John Calvin was enlightened 1500 years after the fact?
Scripture actually denies that this even could happen I Pet 1:20.
The Word of God pronounces:
  • "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16), so God chooses people to be friends (John 15:15 , the prior verse) and to believe (John 6:29) and to be born again (John 3:3-8) and for righteous works (John 3:21, John 15:5) and to repent (Matthew 11:25) and to love (John 13:34) and unto salvation (John 15:19).
  • "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation), so God chooses people unto salvation.
  • "What I say to you I say to all" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 13:37), so all the blessings of God mentioned above are to all believers in all time.

Christ defines us Christians, and each and every one of us Christians have our will bound to our Lord Jesus Christ who says "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5), so the Christian answer to your first sentence is no.

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.
I don't have a problem with scripture, just your (John Calvin's) interpretation of it. It is actually antithetical to scripture and to God. It is antithetical to why God created man.
 

Kermos

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As is the problem with all sola scripturists, they cannot support their view, personal opinions with scripture. Everyone is using scripture alone and there are thousands of interpretations. Everyone knows that the view you are trying to claim is in scripture actually is a man-made theory developed by John Calvin in the 16th century. That is hardly Apostolic. Even with the thousands of differing views, it is ONLY Calvinism that supports your view. Doesn't is seem strange that for 1500 years all Christian views held that man has a free will. A will that is independent of God's will. Do you think that the Holy Spirit got it wrong for 2000 years and ONLY John Calvin was enlightened 1500 years after the fact?
Scripture actually denies that this even could happen I Pet 1:20.

I don't have a problem with scripture, just your (John Calvin's) interpretation of it. It is actually antithetical to scripture and to God. It is antithetical to why God created man.

For the last 2,000 years, Christians have known that every Christian has a bond-will which is lovingly bound by God with God (John 15:5, Philippians 2:13), and Christians have known that every unrighteous person has a self-will which is autonomous reviling God (2 Peter 2:9-10).

Self-willed people get it wrong by doing things like conjuring up a strange fire called free-will, and you get it wrong.

You disappeared for quite some time right after you ignorantly implement an ignominious Ignatius quotation as support for free-willian philosophy, yet after the modern editorial content is removed - only leaving Ignatius' writing - the result is that Ignatius declared the depravity of man and the exclusive Sovereignty of God in man's salvation THUS EXPOSING YOUR FALSE WITNESS AGAINST IGNATIUS THAT YOU THEN EXPAND INTO YOUR FALSE WITNESS AGAINST THE WORD OF GOD BEING IN CONTROL OF MAN'S SALVATION, so your 2,000 years of no sovereignty of God is demonstrably a lie. This post also shows where your heart's treasure adulterates the Word of God wherein God exclusively chooses every single child of God in all time causing salvation from the wrath of God (John 15:16, John 15:19, Mark 13:37)!

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.
 

Rightglory

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For the last 2,000 years, Christians have known that every Christian has a bond-will which is lovingly bound by God with God (John 15:5, Philippians 2:13), and Christians have known that every unrighteous person has a self-will which is autonomous reviling God (2 Peter 2:9-10).

Self-willed people get it wrong by doing things like conjuring up a strange fire called free-will, and you get it wrong.

You disappeared for quite some time right after you ignorantly implement an ignominious Ignatius quotation as support for free-willian philosophy, yet after the modern editorial content is removed - only leaving Ignatius' writing - the result is that Ignatius declared the depravity of man and the exclusive Sovereignty of God in man's salvation THUS EXPOSING YOUR FALSE WITNESS AGAINST IGNATIUS THAT YOU THEN EXPAND INTO YOUR FALSE WITNESS AGAINST THE WORD OF GOD BEING IN CONTROL OF MAN'S SALVATION, so your 2,000 years of no sovereignty of God is demonstrably a lie. This post also shows where your heart's treasure adulterates the Word of God wherein God exclusively chooses every single child of God in all time causing salvation from the wrath of God (John 15:16, John 15:19, Mark 13:37)!

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.
Obviously you cannot show your view as actually apostolic. You twist scripture, mostly out of context and even Church Fathers to the contrary.
Since you made your assertion that all Christians over the last 2000 years held the view of what you all a "bonded will" show any historical statement to that effect prior to Calvinism. Also note that the Orthodox Synod of Jerusalem declared Calvinism a heresy in 1672.
 

Kermos

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As is the problem with all sola scripturists, they cannot support their view, personal opinions with scripture. Everyone is using scripture alone and there are thousands of interpretations. Everyone knows that the view you are trying to claim is in scripture actually is a man-made theory developed by John Calvin in the 16th century. That is hardly Apostolic. Even with the thousands of differing views, it is ONLY Calvinism that supports your view. Doesn't is seem strange that for 1500 years all Christian views held that man has a free will. A will that is independent of God's will. Do you think that the Holy Spirit got it wrong for 2000 years and ONLY John Calvin was enlightened 1500 years after the fact?
Scripture actually denies that this even could happen I Pet 1:20.

I don't have a problem with scripture, just your (John Calvin's) interpretation of it. It is actually antithetical to scripture and to God. It is antithetical to why God created man.

You seem to have a problem with what you call sola scriptura, and you seem to detect that @Johann is in the same camp as you since you replied to a post to Johann.

We Christians abide in the Word of God; in other words, we live the Word of God, Lord Jesus Christ, who says "If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, 32and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free" (John 8:31-32) as well as "If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you" (John 15:7).

Lord Jesus clearly explains the King's involvement inside of us subjects of the Kingdom of God, even controlling our wills, with "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5).

Your post conveys your loathing of what you call sola scriptura, but since that's a misnomer, it is more accurate to write that you detest all of us who abide the Word of God; therefore, you hold that man establishes doctrine unto God and man, a strange fire (Leviticus 10:1) since King Jesus says "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word" (John 14:23).

The clear end result of your writing is that you are promiscuus scriptura; in other words, you embrace writings promiscuously, that is, integrating man's ungodly thoughts into scripture, so Christ's words apply "in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the precepts of men" (Matthew 15:9).

Beneficial note: this post continues from post 1,423.

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.
 

Johann

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First, being "born again" does not change man's will. It is free and independent from the will of God.
Actually, a man's "will" is swallowed up in the sweet will of Christ.

I have yet to see a successful rebuttal to @Kermos and the biblical doctrines he brings to the table.

J.
 

Johann

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You seem to have a problem with what you call sola scriptura, and you seem to detect that @Johann is in the same camp as you since you replied to a post to Johann.
Where can I find your essays, since I perceive that the biblical doctrines you hold forth is correct and have yet to find a successful rebuttal from anyone.

Thanks
J.
 

Rightglory

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You seem to have a problem with what you call sola scriptura, and you seem to detect that @Johann is in the same camp as you since you replied to a post to Johann.

We Christians abide in the Word of God; in other words, we live the Word of God, Lord Jesus Christ, who says "If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, 32and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free" (John 8:31-32) as well as "If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you" (John 15:7).

Lord Jesus clearly explains the King's involvement inside of us subjects of the Kingdom of God, even controlling our wills, with "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5).

Your post conveys your loathing of what you call sola scriptura, but since that's a misnomer, it is more accurate to write that you detest all of us who abide the Word of God; therefore, you hold that man establishes doctrine unto God and man, a strange fire (Leviticus 10:1) since King Jesus says "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word" (John 14:23).

The clear end result of your writing is that you are promiscuus scriptura; in other words, you embrace writings promiscuously, that is, integrating man's ungodly thoughts into scripture, so Christ's words apply "in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the precepts of men" (Matthew 15:9).

Beneficial note: this post continues from post 1,423.

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.
I assumed that you would not be able to confirm your assertion. You have proved, at least to this point, that you cannot support your assertion that all Christians for 2000 years believed that Christians have a bound will.
The rest of this post is not pertinent to that assertion.
 
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Rightglory

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Actually, a man's "will" is swallowed up in the sweet will of Christ.
You will find nothing in scripture, without overriding it with Calvinism, that will make that assertion.
I have yet to see a successful rebuttal to @Kermos and the biblical doctrines he brings to the table.
As far as I have read his treatises, he has only one and that deals with the unscriptural view that man's will in bound.
The only view that fits is Calvinism. From Orthodox, Syrian, Coptic, Roman Catholic and most if not all other Protestant denominations do not support the views of Calvinism. And as I pointed out to Kermos, Calvinism was declared heresy by the Synod of Jerusalem 1672.
 

Johann

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You will find nothing in scripture, without overriding it with Calvinism, that will make that assertion.

As far as I have read his treatises, he has only one and that deals with the unscriptural view that man's will in bound.
The only view that fits is Calvinism. From Orthodox, Syrian, Coptic, Roman Catholic and most if not all other Protestant denominations do not support the views of Calvinism. And as I pointed out to Kermos, Calvinism was declared heresy by the Synod of Jerusalem 1672.
I think you need to dig deeper, @Kermos is not a Calvinist.
 

Johann

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I think you need to dig deeper, @Kermos is not a Calvinist.
Here's a classic example of the will not being bound....

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

To some, this is Paul the unregenerate man

To most scholars, Paul, the regenerate man.

Paul writing in the First Person Singular.
 

Johann

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Here's a classic example of the will not being bound....

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

To some, this is Paul the unregenerate man

To most scholars, Paul, the regenerate man.

Paul writing in the First Person Singular.
God never forces men to act against their wills. By workings of outward providence or of inward grace, the Lord may change men’s minds, but he will not coerce a human being into thoughts, words or actions. When God in his holy wrath sent the Israelites to drive the Canaanites from their land, he also sent hornets against them. There is a children’s song which tells the story of these hornets stinging the Canaanites, causing the pagans to flee the land. The chorus then sings:

God never compels us to go, Oh no,
He never compels us to go;
God does not compel us to go ’gainst our will,
but he just makes us willing to go.

When Saul was converted, the Lord did not compel him to edify the church instead of persecuting it. He added a new factor of inward grace in his soul, consequently Paul changed his decision. God may renew the will but he never coerces it.

The Westminster Confession is very careful to assert the liberty of the human will. When it speaks of God’s eternal decrees, we are told, ‘God from all eternity did . . . freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.’ When discussing Free Will, the Confession begins, ‘God hath endued the will of man with that natural liberty, that it is neither forced, nor by any absolute necessity of nature determined, to good or evil.’ Neither by creation nor by subsequent acts of God are man’s decisions made for him; he is free to choose for himself.

This sort of freedom of the will is essential to responsibility! Having a will is a necessary ingredient to being morally accountable. This is clearly implied in our Lord’s words in verses 36 and 37: ‘I say unto you, that every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.’ A man can be condemned only because the words are his own. He was free to bring them out of his treasure chest. They were the overflow of the fountain of his own heart. They are the fruits of his own tree of nature. No one imposed the words on his lips. He chose them. Society, companions, parents cannot be blamed. Idle words are the product of man’s the own will.

It is vital for every minister to appreciate the importance of man’s will. For in evangelism the will must be addressed. In preaching the gospel we are not only to shine the light of truth upon darkened minds. We are also to appeal to men’s perverted wills to choose Christ. Faith is as much an act of the will as it is of the mind. When by the Spirit a mind understands essential truths, by the same Spirit the will must trust Christ. Repentance is a selecting of good and a refusing of evil. Volition is central to faith and repentance.

Indeed, in conversion, a man must make a decision. We shy away from that term because in modern jargon a ‘decision’ has come to be identified with an outward expression, such as raising the hand or going forward to the front. While such external acts have nothing to do with forgiveness of sins, the heart must make a decision to be saved.

When Christ stood to cry ‘If any man thirst, let him come unto me and drink’, he was soliciting a willing choice of himself as satisfying drink for the soul. God urges all sinners to come just because they may come. And it is our duty to inform the sinner that he has a warrant, a right to choose Christ. Beyond this, we must assure him that he has a positive duty to embrace the Saviour.
 

Johann

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The great guilt of sinners under the gospel is that they will not come. Christ complained in John 5:40: ‘Ye will not come to me that ye might have life.’ And to Jerusalem he sobbed, ‘O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings and ye would not!’ There is in the unregenerate hearer of the gospel an obstinate, wilful choice not to come. Hence it is that in flaming fire Christ will come to take vengeance on them that obey not the gospel (2 Thess. 1:8). In the free exercise of their uncoerced wills men have rejected the Son of God.

In speaking of responsibility we have implied nothing regarding ability, as will be seen below. But the point is that men have wills which must be addressed as powerfully and directly as their minds and emotions in gospel preaching. Men must be confronted with their responsibility. ‘This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent’ (John 6:29).

MAN’S WILL IS NOT A SOVEREIGN FACULTY.
Although man does have a will, it is neither independent of all influences nor supreme over all other parts of his personality. This is the next point to be seen in our Lord’s teaching.

Pelagians, Roman Catholics, Arminians and Finneyites have all held one common view of the nature of man. They suggest that the will of man is in some way neutral, that it exists in a state of moral suspension. It is their understanding that with equal ease the will can choose good or evil; it can receive or reject Christ. With only degrees of difference and variety of explanation, this is their common opinion. Pelagians have taught that the will is neutral because man’s heart is morally neutral. Arminians, on the other hand, acknowledge the human heart to be evil. But they suggest that prevenient grace has hung the will upon a ‘sky hook’ of neutrality from which it can swing either to receive or to reject the gospel. The common ground, however, is this idea of neutrality. The will, they tell us, is disinterested. Ultimately this controls their entire view of conversion and of sanctification.

It will be noted that our Master taught that the human will is not free from the other faculties of the heart. Far from the will reigning over a man, the will is determined by the man’s own character. It is not raised to a position of dominance over the entire man.

Man is like a tree. His heart, not his will alone, is the root. There is no possible way by which the will can choose to produce fruit contrary to the character of the root. If the root is bad, the tree is bound by its very nature to produce evil fruit.

Man is like a person standing alongside his treasure chest. There is no possibility of bringing pure gold out of a box filled only with rusty steel. The contents of the heart determine what words and deeds may be brought out. Far from being neutral, the will must reach into the heart for its choices. Every thought, word and deed will partake of the nature of the treasure within.

Man is like a stream which cannot rise above its source. If the fountain is polluted, the outflow will be evil. If the source be sweet, the stream will not be bitter and cannot choose to be so.

These three illustrations alike contain the same lesson. What a man is determines what he chooses. Choices of the will always reveal the character of the heart, because the heart determines the choices. Men are not sinners because they choose to sin; they choose to sin because they are sinners. If this were not so, we could never know a tree by its fruits, nor could we judge a man’s character by his acts.

In modern times we observe rockets fired so that they escape from the earth’s gravity. To accomplish this there is a great complex of electrical wires all woven into one control centre, called in the U.S. ‘Mission Control.’ According to the Bible, the heart is the Mission Control of a man’s life. The heart is the motivational complex of a man, the basic disposition, the entire bent of character, the moral inclination. The mind, emotions, desires, and will are all wires which we observe; none is independent but all are welded into a common circuit. If mission control is wired for evil, the will cannot make the rockets of life travel on the path of righteousness. The will cannot escape the direction of thoughts, feelings, longings and habits to produce behaviour of an opposite moral quality. ‘Will’ may be the button which launches the spacecraft. But the launching button does not determine the direction. Direction is dependent upon the complex wiring system.

If the will were able to make decisions contrary to reason, and to the likes and desires of the heart, it would be a monster. You would find yourself in a restaurant ordering all the foods you detest. You would find yourself selecting the company you loathe. But the will is not a monster. It cannot choose without consulting your intelligence, reflecting your feelings, and taking account of your desires. You are free to be yourself. The will cannot transform you into someone else.

This is how you debate, using outside sources.
 

Rightglory

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Here's a classic example of the will not being bound....

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

To some, this is Paul the unregenerate man

To most scholars, Paul, the regenerate man.

Paul writing in the First Person Singular.
Which shows that man's will is not bond in any shape or form, it is a classic view of the freedom of man's will. Man's will has always been independent of God's will. The Church dealt with the heresy of Christ's two natures (One Person) in three Councils.
1st Council of Constantinople 381; Council of Chalcedon 451: 3rd Council of Constantinople 680. The last dealing with Christ's two distinct wills -Divine will and human will.
 

Kermos

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Obviously you cannot show your view as actually apostolic. You twist scripture, mostly out of context and even Church Fathers to the contrary.
Since you made your assertion that all Christians over the last 2000 years held the view of what you all a "bonded will" show any historical statement to that effect prior to Calvinism. Also note that the Orthodox Synod of Jerusalem declared Calvinism a heresy in 1672.

Christ is the exclusive founder of every single Christian; in other words Christ sovereignly reigns in the affairs of men, but you say that men reign sovereignly in the affairs of God, yet the Christ says this clearly:
  • "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16), so God chooses people to be friends (John 15:15 , the prior verse) and to believe (John 6:29) and to be born again (John 3:3-8) and for righteous works (John 3:21, John 15:5) and to repent (Matthew 11:25) and to love (John 13:34) and unto salvation (John 15:19 the same passage).
  • "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation), so God chooses people unto salvation.
  • "What I say to you I say to all" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 13:37 - Jesus had taken the Apostles Peter, Andrew, James, and John aside in private and said this), so all the blessings of God mentioned above are to all believers in all time.

Christ defines and makes us Christians.

The Apostle Paul wrote that a Christian's will is bound to God Almighty with "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13), and this is a wonderful blessing!

The Apostle Peter wrote "the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority. Daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties" (2 Peter 2:9-10), and this Apostolic testimony contains both wonderful blessing for we godly but terror for free-willian self-willed unrighteous persons.

You may want to run to voices other than the voice of Christ, but as for me, I am sticking with the voice of Christ. You ran to (not) the voice of Ignatius when you ignorantly implement an ignominious Ignatius quotation as support for free-willian philosophy, yet after the modern editorial content is removed - only leaving Ignatius' writing - the result is that Ignatius declared the depravity of man and the exclusive Sovereignty of God in man's salvation THUS EXPOSING YOUR FALSE WITNESS AGAINST IGNATIUS THAT YOU THEN EXPAND INTO YOUR FALSE WITNESS AGAINST THE WORD OF GOD BEING IN CONTROL OF MAN'S SALVATION, so your 2,000 years of no sovereignty of God is demonstrably a lie. This post also shows where your heart's treasure adulterates the Word of God wherein God exclusively chooses every single child of God in all time causing salvation from the wrath of God (John 15:16, John 15:19, Mark 13:37)!

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.
 

Rightglory

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Christ is the exclusive founder of every single Christian; in other words Christ sovereignly reigns in the affairs of men, but you say that men reign sovereignly in the affairs of God, yet the Christ says this clearly:
  • "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16), so God chooses people to be friends (John 15:15 , the prior verse) and to believe (John 6:29) and to be born again (John 3:3-8) and for righteous works (John 3:21, John 15:5) and to repent (Matthew 11:25) and to love (John 13:34) and unto salvation (John 15:19 the same passage).
  • "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation), so God chooses people unto salvation.
  • "What I say to you I say to all" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 13:37 - Jesus had taken the Apostles Peter, Andrew, James, and John aside in private and said this), so all the blessings of God mentioned above are to all believers in all time.

Christ defines and makes us Christians.

The Apostle Paul wrote that a Christian's will is bound to God Almighty with "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13), and this is a wonderful blessing!

The Apostle Peter wrote "the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority. Daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties" (2 Peter 2:9-10), and this Apostolic testimony contains both wonderful blessing for we godly but terror for free-willian self-willed unrighteous persons.

You may want to run to voices other than the voice of Christ, but as for me, I am sticking with the voice of Christ. You ran to (not) the voice of Ignatius when you ignorantly implement an ignominious Ignatius quotation as support for free-willian philosophy, yet after the modern editorial content is removed - only leaving Ignatius' writing - the result is that Ignatius declared the depravity of man and the exclusive Sovereignty of God in man's salvation THUS EXPOSING YOUR FALSE WITNESS AGAINST IGNATIUS THAT YOU THEN EXPAND INTO YOUR FALSE WITNESS AGAINST THE WORD OF GOD BEING IN CONTROL OF MAN'S SALVATION, so your 2,000 years of no sovereignty of God is demonstrably a lie. This post also shows where your heart's treasure adulterates the Word of God wherein God exclusively chooses every single child of God in all time causing salvation from the wrath of God (John 15:16, John 15:19, Mark 13:37)!

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.
Once again you have not addressed your assertion. You say you will stick with Christ, but your theory only shows you either stick with some other men or just yourself. I don't believe the Holy Spirit is fickle, confused, and gives multiple gospels. He gave it once to the Apostles and the Holy Spirit has preserved that Gospel unchanged for 2000 years. Which is why it is so easy to show a false teaching, it has not been believed from the beginning by all everywhere.
 

Kermos

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I assumed that you would not be able to confirm your assertion. You have proved, at least to this point, that you cannot support your assertion that all Christians for 2000 years believed that Christians have a bound will.
The rest of this post is not pertinent to that assertion.

Back to the point of the post to which you replied (see that the post has a second part referenced inside of the post).

You seem to have a problem with what you call sola scriptura.

We Christians abide in the Word of God; in other words, we live the Word of God, Lord Jesus Christ, who says "If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, 32and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free" (John 8:31-32) as well as "If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you" (John 15:7).

Lord Jesus clearly explains the King's involvement inside of us subjects of the Kingdom of God, even controlling our wills, with "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5).

Your post conveys your loathing of what you call sola scriptura, but since that's a misnomer, it is more accurate to write that you detest all of us who abide the Word of God; therefore, you hold that man establishes doctrine unto God and man, a strange fire (Leviticus 10:1) since King Jesus says "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word" (John 14:23).

The clear end result of your writing is that you are promiscuus scriptura; in other words, you embrace writings promiscuously, that is, integrating man's ungodly thoughts into scripture, so Christ's words apply "in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the precepts of men" (Matthew 15:9).

Beneficial note: this post continues from post 1,423.

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.
 

Kermos

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Where can I find your essays, since I perceive that the biblical doctrines you hold forth is correct and have yet to find a successful rebuttal from anyone.

Thanks
J.

Please see One Spirit and One Heart in God - Table of Contents (JesusDelivers.Faith) opens to a table of contents page. One essay is at the top. Links to two other essays are at the bottom. The link related to this thread is on the bottom left.
 
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Kermos

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Here's a classic example of the will not being bound....

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

To some, this is Paul the unregenerate man

To most scholars, Paul, the regenerate man.

Paul writing in the First Person Singular.

Dear Johann,

Please take a moment to listen to this song before continuing to read this post as response to your posts 1,431 (quoted above), 1,432, and 1,433 by Rich Mullins:


I do not claim that the lyrics are perfect, but the song does convey something similar to Paul’s writing in Romans 7:7-25
about the tension of the flesh opposing the Spirit of God. We are not as strong, as we think we are.

You opened your post with "Here's a classic example of the will not being bound", but in Romans 7:25 we find the Apostle writing "then with the mind I myself serve the law of God" - he clarifies how with his mind he serves the law of God with "I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Romans 7:25) - so Paul attributes Paul's serving the law of God as being through Christ not of Paul himself, yet Paul didn't stop there.

The passage of Romans 7:7-25 immediately continues on with:

Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God [did]: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as [an offering for] sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able [to do so], and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
(Romans 8:1-8)

We Christians "walk" "according to the Spirit" (Romans 8:4). This is the Power of God in us (1 Corinthians 1:24) controlling the Christian will - "the love of Christ compels us" (2 Corinthians 5:14).

In Romans 7:7 to Romans 8:8, we find "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13).

While "the love of Christ conpels us" (2 Corinthians 5:14) has direct relevance to what you wrote in "God never compels us to go" in your post 1,432, I desire not to dwell on this.

Instead, I want to draw your attention to the chilling matter of the following quote:

Which shows that man's will is not bond in any shape or form, it is a classic view of the freedom of man's will. Man's will has always been independent of God's will. The Church dealt with the heresy of Christ's two natures (One Person) in three Councils.
1st Council of Constantinople 381; Council of Chalcedon 451: 3rd Council of Constantinople 680. The last dealing with Christ's two distinct wills -Divine will and human will.

Johann, Rightglory quoted your same post that is quoted in this very post - and Rightglory proceeded to use your post in opposition to Paul’s clear declaration of the Christian's complete dependence upon Christ Jesus the Lord.

Since, as shown above, Romans 7:7-25 does clearly culminate with Paul showing in Paul a bond-will to God, then I urge you to correct the matter in front of Rightglory, as soon as possible.

Paul wrote "the mind set on the flesh is death", yet Jesus conquered the grave, so Jesus delivers us Christians "the mind set on the Spirit is life".

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.