Was David lying?

[Stranger]

What about likes and programming? What exactly happened? Why'd my father turn me over? Doug batchellor was right and is good talent really to be killed?

I don't exactly know what you are asking.

Stranger

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Hello, I’m new to posting here. I’m sorry if I’m in the wrong forum. My question is was David lying when he pretended to be insane in front of Abimelech? Psalm 34 is referring to this incident, but verse 14 seems to suggest he wasn’t lying. To me misleading and lying are the same. How do you reconcile this? Thank you

Hello Mike,

1 Samuel 21:10ff is a rather strange incident and David acted this way out of fear to spare his life from Achish, and it worked. Lying may be a little strong here yet it is not unlike some saints in Scripture to do these types of things. Jacob was similar in some ways. Each of us have sinned and will fail.

As for Psalm 34, let's say David did lie, but it would not be incorrect for him to still teach truth. Verse 14 is not contextually there as justification for his behavior, or as a denial of his behavior being wrong. Therefore I'd have to disagree with you that he's denying anything there, specifically that he perhaps, as you suggest, lied.

Read Psalm 34:11-14 in its context and its principle which teaches truthful acts of holiness before God and man which for the most part David practiced in his life. He is teaching truths and precepts, not justifying or denying he did wrong.

 

[Deborah_]

Hello, I’m new to posting here. I’m sorry if I’m in the wrong forum. My question is was David lying when he pretended to be insane in front of Abimelech? Psalm 34 is referring to this incident, but verse 14 seems to suggest he wasn’t lying. To me misleading and lying are the same. How do you reconcile this? Thank you

The Bible is surprisingly relaxed about lying, under certain circumstances.

None of the commandments says, "Thou shalt not tell lies." The ninth commandment does say, "Do not give false testimony" - but this isn't quite the same thing.

Lying and deception are permissible in war, or in order to save life. God gives Samuel a 'cover story' about the purpose of his visit to Bethlehem (I Samuel 16:2), so that he can get there safely and carry out his mission. And even Jesus gives His brothers false information (John 7:8-10), so that He can travel to Jerusalem without everyone knowing His plans. So I can't see a problem with David pretending to be mad in order to save his own life.

 

[Mayflower]

Hi! Welcome! I think David was human. He sinned with Bathsheba and he was afraid for his life here. I don't think all pretending is lying. But in this case, I believe he was. Sort of like Abraham pretending Sarah was his sister.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Hi! Welcome! I think David was human. He sinned with Bathsheba and he was afraid for his life here. I don't think all pretending is lying. But in this case, I believe he was. Sort of like Abraham pretending Sarah was his sister.

She was his sister.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

The Hebrew midwives were commended and rewarded for lying to Pharaoh in Exodus 1:15-22. It was then permissible, as now, to lie in order to save lives.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

Hi! Welcome! I think David was human. He sinned with Bathsheba and he was afraid for his life here. I don't think all pretending is lying. But in this case, I believe he was. Sort of like Abraham pretending Sarah was his sister.

Wasn't exactly lying--she was his half-sister. I guess you could say that it was a lie of omission.

 

[farouk]

Hi! Welcome! I think David was human. He sinned with Bathsheba and he was afraid for his life here. I don't think all pretending is lying. But in this case, I believe he was. Sort of like Abraham pretending Sarah was his sister.

Psalm 51 is very searching, isn't it? (with that episode as a background).

 

[Jon Mathews]

So what? I find it odd that David writes a psalm about his faking being crazy and in that psalm says not to lie. And before anyone says it’s not lying let me use an example. I ask my child “did you clean your room” and they didn’t, but they give me a thumbs up. We would all call that a lie. Deceiving is a lie. I would appreciate a biblical explaination of when it is ok to lie. Or am I to take this story with David as the proof?

David, Rahab, and Moses' mother all lied to the Enemy to avoid unjust death. God's Word never praises them for lying, but for their other deeds done in Faith. Just because Righteous people lie in the Bible does not mean God is condoning lying. The Scriptures are simply telling the Truth about the events that occurred. It shows men's weaknesses. Notice how Jesus Christ never lied to escape death.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

David, Rahab, and Moses' mother all lied to the Enemy to avoid unjust death. God's Word never praises them for lying, but for their other deeds done in Faith. Just because Righteous people lie in the Bible does not mean God is condoning lying. The Scriptures are simply telling the Truth about the events that occurred. It shows men's weaknesses. Notice how Jesus Christ never lied to escape death.

You are correct, God said, that He is not a man that He should lie--therefore, He expects us to always be more and more like Him and not, as a general rule, tell lies. But, considering the circumstances (and they were few and far between) to tell the truth would have resulted in a much greater evil.

 

[Kermos]

The Bible is surprisingly relaxed about lying, under certain circumstances.

None of the commandments says, "Thou shalt not tell lies." The ninth commandment does say, "Do not give false testimony" - but this isn't quite the same thing.

Lying and deception are permissible in war, or in order to save life. God gives Samuel a 'cover story' about the purpose of his visit to Bethlehem (I Samuel 16:2), so that he can get there safely and carry out his mission. And even Jesus gives His brothers false information (John 7:8-10), so that He can travel to Jerusalem without everyone knowing His plans. So I can't see a problem with David pretending to be mad in order to save his own life.

Hi Deborah,

Since Lord Jesus never told a lie (John 14:6, John 17:17, 2 Corinthians 5:21), and false information is a lie; therefore, Jesus did not give false information in the John 7:6-11 passage. In the promise of the Messiah Jesus, the line of David King of Israel, it is in this promise which David lived (don't forget David's prophecies of Messiah such as Psalm 22 indicating crucifixion long before implemented) yet David did not lead a perfect life for only Messiah Jesus lived the perfect life. Let's take a look at John 7:6-11:

6 So Jesus said to them, "My time is not yet here, but your time is always opportune.
7 "The world cannot hate you, but it hates Me because I testify of it, that its deeds are evil.
8 "Go up to the feast yourselves; I do not go up to this feast because My time has not yet fully come."
9 Having said these things to them, He stayed in Galilee.
10 But when His brothers had gone up to the feast, then He Himself also went up, not publicly, but as if, in secret.
11 So the Jews were seeking Him at the feast and were saying, "Where is He?"
(John 7:6-11)

Jesus is the Master Orator, and it is His prerogative to issue more than one meaning to a given statement thus saying more than one thing at a time. With that being written, please pay special attention to "My time has not yet fully come" at the end of verse 8. What time is that? Was it the time for Jesus to be glorified? Was it time to go up to the feast? Was it time to go with those that the world cannot hate? That word "because" is crucial as the fulcrum that indicates Lord Jesus did not lie.

In the promise of the Resurrection to Life,
Kermos

 

[OzSpen]

I guess the difficulty I have is, saying “i’m Crazy” is clearly a lie, but deliberately making someon think you’re crazy isn’t. They are both deception

Mike,

Welcome to the forum. It's great to see your post on a topic that bamboozles some Christians.

It's an ethical issue that is associated with other biblical examples such as,

Rahab. See Joshua 2:1-24. Joshua sent the 2 spies into the land, especially to Jericho. Where did they stay? In the house of a prostitute!

'So the king of Jericho sent this message to Rahab: “Bring out the men who came to you and entered your house, because they have come to spy out the whole land.” But the woman had taken the two men and hidden them. She said, “Yes, the men came to me, but I did not know where they had come from. 5 At dusk, when it was time to close the city gate, they left (Josh 2:3-5 NIV).

She clearly lied about the whereabouts of the 2 spies.

She knew the Lord had given the Promised Land to the Israelites (vv 8-11). Rahab asked for protection for her family and her (v 12) and '“Our lives for your lives!” the men assured her. “If you don’t tell what we are doing, we will treat you kindly and faithfully when the Lord gives us the land"' (v 13).

There were conditions to this promise by the 2 Israelite spies:

This oath you made us swear will not be binding on us 18 unless, when we enter the land, you have tied this scarlet cord in the window through which you let us down, and unless you have brought your father and mother, your brothers and all your family into your house. 19 If any of them go outside your house into the street, their blood will be on their own heads; we will not be responsible. As for those who are in the house with you, their blood will be on our head if a hand is laid on them. 20 But if you tell what we are doing, we will be released from the oath you made us swear.” (vv 17-20).​

Who blessed/agreed with this action? 'They said to Joshua, “The Lord has surely given the whole land into our hands; all the people are melting in fear because of us”'(v 24).

How is it possible for the Lord to give the whole land to the Israelites that the people lived in fear of them through the care and ministry of a prostitute?

James 2:25 asks: 'In the same way [people considered righteous by what they do], was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction?' (NIV)

Corrie ten Boom followed this biblical principle when she hid the Jews in her house in the Netherlands during World War 2 and lied about what she did. See The Hiding Place movie. Corrie and sister Betsie ended up in 2 Nazi concentration camps for what they did in saving Jewish lives.

I have examined these ethical conflicts in an article, God’s absolutes are absolutely true! See also Biblical data for making ethical decisions: There are higher moral laws. I recommend a study (examples in my first article) of Norman Geisler's conclusions of 'graded absolutism'. This deals with what to do when God's laws conflict with human laws and how to put Acts 5:29 into practice, 'Peter and the other apostles replied: ‘We must obey God rather than human beings!' (NIV)

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

I must say I was hoping to get biblical based and backed answers on this forum. Not complaining, that’s just what I need to accept an answer in my own mind. Thank you all though, some of what was said helped me think deeper on this

Mike,

I've tried to supply a biblical base in post #32.

Was Jesus confronted with moral conflicts? Seems to me that he was:

• Consider Heb 4:15 (NIV), 'For we do not have a high priest who is unable to feel sympathy for our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are – yet he did not sin'.
• What about the conflict of obeying parents vs obeying God (Mark 2)?
• How about government and God (Matt 22);
• Then we have the extraordinary conflict the cross provided. There was justice for Jesus, the innocent person, vs. mercy for the guilty (all of the people). What was Jesus' choice? Mercy for the whole world of wrongdoers!

Oz

 

[Enoch111]

Just because Righteous people lie in the Bible does not mean God is condoning lying

The OP is about pretending, not lying. David was not lying but simply pretending. Two different things. Christians also pretend at times, especially when they put on a brave face in the midst of difficulties or other situations.

 

[Enoch111]

Was Jesus confronted with moral conflicts?

How could God incarnate be confronted with moral conflicts, when He set the standard for all morality?

 

[Preacher4Truth]

I must say I was hoping to get biblical based and backed answers on this forum. Not complaining, that’s just what I need to accept an answer in my own mind. Thank you all though, some of what was said helped me think deeper on this

I gave you one and it's been crickets since. So have a couple of others.

 

[farouk]

Hi! Welcome! I think David was human. He sinned with Bathsheba and he was afraid for his life here. I don't think all pretending is lying. But in this case, I believe he was. Sort of like Abraham pretending Sarah was his sister.

It can be so easy to slip into untruth, unless one's conscience is strong, by God's grace.

 

[GISMYS_7]

2Timothy 2:23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.

 

[OzSpen]

How could God incarnate be confronted with moral conflicts, when He set the standard for all morality?

Was it a real temptation Jesus encountered in the wilderness or was it a fictional moral challenge (Matt 4:1-11 NIV)?

 

[aspen]

Hello, I’m new to posting here. I’m sorry if I’m in the wrong forum. My question is was David lying when he pretended to be insane in front of Abimelech? Psalm 34 is referring to this incident, but verse 14 seems to suggest he wasn’t lying. To me misleading and lying are the same. How do you reconcile this? Thank you

Ends justify the means in the Old Testament