Was Jesus born in September or on December 25? — Using John the Baptist’s birth

[Taken]

@WalterandDebbie ~

Yes John the Baptists birth gives us an indicator....yet, where is the Birth “date, season” of John’s birth recorded?

Remembering...
1) Jesus experienced a “physical birth”.... was Called: The Son of Man.
Specific Notice was given, He would be Called: The Son of God.
2) A female delivers forth a babe from her womb...called born.
3) On the day of a male child’s birth, whereby the male IS the source of the SEED of the born child...the male Declares the child IS “HIS” begotten child.

Remembering...
WHEN...on WHAT DAY, God Declared ... Jesus, “Gods Begotten”...?
(It was some 30 years LATER).

Matt 3:
[16] And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
[17] And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Acts 13:
[33] God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

Mary delivered forth “the Son of Man”.
God declared “Jesus, Gods Son”.

Jesus is man’s VISIBLE example.
Earthly men are sons of men, via a mans seed.
Earthy men BECOME sons of God...(not at their natural birth)...but by Receiving Gods SEED, according to Gods Order and Way, and
1) Gods DECLARED promise.
2) Without mens ability to SEE a man receiving Gods SEED.


The “RETURN” of Jesus TO Earth...
1)...The Son of Man, came, left, shall return...He which MEN CAN SEE.
However WHEN Jesus was ON Earth it was “revealed” He is the CHRIST...
(Ie the Wisdom, SEED, POWER of God).
2)...Yes, Earthly men SHALL SEE the “Son of Man” Return...
HOWEVER...When He returns...(He comes WITH His reputation, (not AS the first time, a humbled servant, without His reputation) ;
Phil 2: 7,8
Rather He comes WITH His reputation...POWER and AUTHORITY.
....To separate the divided (with and without God)
....To claim His inheritance...(Abraham’s promised Land)
....To claim His inheritance...(king David’s everlasting Throne)
....To Rule as King of kings, Lord of lords, over “mortal kings and lords or mortal kingdoms /nations).....for 1,000 years....
....UNTIL the next Order and Way of God is fulfilled.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[NagaMorningstar]

@WalterandDebbie ~

Yes John the Baptists birth gives us an indicator....yet, where is the Birth “date, season” of John’s birth recorded?

Remembering...
1) Jesus experienced a “physical birth”.... was Called: The Son of Man.
Specific Notice was given, He would be Called: The Son of God.
2) A female delivers forth a babe from her womb...called born.
3) On the day of a male child’s birth, whereby the male IS the source of the SEED of the born child...the male Declares the child IS “HIS” begotten child.

Remembering...
WHEN...on WHAT DAY, God Declared ... Jesus, “Gods Begotten”...?
(It was some 30 years LATER).

Matt 3:
[16] And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
[17] And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Acts 13:
[33] God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

Mary delivered forth “the Son of Man”.
God declared “Jesus, Gods Son”.

Jesus is man’s VISIBLE example.
Earthly men are sons of men, via a mans seed.
Earthy men BECOME sons of God...(not at their natural birth)...but by Receiving Gods SEED, according to Gods Order and Way, and
1) Gods DECLARED promise.
2) Without mens ability to SEE a man receiving Gods SEED.


The “RETURN” of Jesus TO Earth...
1)...The Son of Man, came, left, shall return...He which MEN CAN SEE.
However WHEN Jesus was ON Earth it was “revealed” He is the CHRIST...
(Ie the Wisdom, SEED, POWER of God).
2)...Yes, Earthly men SHALL SEE the “Son of Man” Return...
HOWEVER...When He returns...(He comes WITH His reputation, (not AS the first time, a humbled servant, without His reputation) ;
Phil 2: 7,8
Rather He comes WITH His reputation...POWER and AUTHORITY.
....To separate the divided (with and without God)
....To claim His inheritance...(Abraham’s promised Land)
....To claim His inheritance...(king David’s everlasting Throne)
....To Rule as King of kings, Lord of lords, over “mortal kings and lords or mortal kingdoms /nations).....for 1,000 years....
....UNTIL the next Order and Way of God is fulfilled.

Glory to God,
Taken

Ezekiel was also called son of man many times

 

[WalterandDebbie]

@WalterandDebbie ~

Yes John the Baptists birth gives us an indicator....yet, where is the Birth “date, season” of John’s birth recorded?

Remembering...
1) Jesus experienced a “physical birth”.... was Called: The Son of Man.
Specific Notice was given, He would be Called: The Son of God.
2) A female delivers forth a babe from her womb...called born.
3) On the day of a male child’s birth, whereby the male IS the source of the SEED of the born child...the male Declares the child IS “HIS” begotten child.

Remembering...
WHEN...on WHAT DAY, God Declared ... Jesus, “Gods Begotten”...?
(It was some 30 years LATER).

Matt 3:
[16] And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
[17] And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Acts 13:
[33] God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

Mary delivered forth “the Son of Man”.
God declared “Jesus, Gods Son”.

Jesus is man’s VISIBLE example.
Earthly men are sons of men, via a mans seed.
Earthy men BECOME sons of God...(not at their natural birth)...but by Receiving Gods SEED, according to Gods Order and Way, and
1) Gods DECLARED promise.
2) Without mens ability to SEE a man receiving Gods SEED.


The “RETURN” of Jesus TO Earth...
1)...The Son of Man, came, left, shall return...He which MEN CAN SEE.
However WHEN Jesus was ON Earth it was “revealed” He is the CHRIST...
(Ie the Wisdom, SEED, POWER of God).
2)...Yes, Earthly men SHALL SEE the “Son of Man” Return...
HOWEVER...When He returns...(He comes WITH His reputation, (not AS the first time, a humbled servant, without His reputation) ;
Phil 2: 7,8
Rather He comes WITH His reputation...POWER and AUTHORITY.
....To separate the divided (with and without God)
....To claim His inheritance...(Abraham’s promised Land)
....To claim His inheritance...(king David’s everlasting Throne)
....To Rule as King of kings, Lord of lords, over “mortal kings and lords or mortal kingdoms /nations).....for 1,000 years....
....UNTIL the next Order and Way of God is fulfilled.

Glory to God,
Taken

Amen.

Walter

 

[Mr E]

Dec 25th comes from the fact that the sun appears to move 1 degree each day on the horizon sunrise then on Dec 22nd it appears to stop moving for 3 days and on Dec 25th sunrise you can again see the the apparent 1 degree movement back the other way.

It also mirrors the 3 day overcoming/victory experience that is also called 3 days in heart of the earth, sign of Jonah (in the whale), baptism by fire, circumcision of heart, etc. I’ve had the experience and saw Jesus with eyes of fire (rev 1:14-15) like Daniel and Ezekiel saw.

I love the significance of this symbolism. 3 days of darkness, the darkest days of the year and then-- with the coming of the new dawn, the cycle begins again. Light and increasing light, each day. Rinse, repeat.

I'd love to hear more about your experience.

 

[Taken]

Ezekiel was also called son of man many times

Ezekiel was an Earthly man.
Jesus is a Heavenly man.

Every and ALL who come forth out from an earthly woman’s womb IS a called “son of man”. A Natural birth.
Earthly men are OF the seed OF Earthly men.
An earthly mans fertilized SEED is received into the Womb of a female.
Earthly men-KIND (male and female) “born OF God”, uniquely and spiritually “receive” Gods SEED, IN their Heart. A Supernatural birth.
Pretty handy, since men do not have “wombs”.

Jesus, (the Word of God), came forth out from Gods Mouth, (Isa 55:11)
and was sent to Mary’s Womb, (Luke 1:35)
(and revealed coming forth out from Mary’s Womb in a BODY of FLESH,..God Prepared for WHEN He was to come into this World.) (Heb 10:5)

Human, Earthy men ARE “FORM-ED”. Mans seed, Natural body, Natural birth.
Converted Human, Earthy men, WITH the SEED of God, are “born again”, and Prepared to “RECEIVE” a New Body...(according to Gods Order, Way, Timeframe.)

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

@WalterandDebbie

Hello. Want to make a correction to an earlier post, where I said to the effect, the Magi brought gifts appropriate/befitting for a KING....the 3 kinds of gifts they brought were appropriate for;
A King...ie Gold
A Prophet...ie Myrrh
A High Priest ...ie Frankincense

TY

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[WalterandDebbie]

@WalterandDebbie

Hello. Want to make a correction to an earlier post, where I said to the effect, the Magi brought gifts appropriate/befitting for a KING....the 3 kinds of gifts they brought were appropriate for;
A King...ie Gold
A Prophet...ie Myrrh
A High Priest ...ie Frankincense

TY

Glory to God,
Taken

Thanks

Walter

 

[Pilgrimer]

Monday 12-12-22 2nd. Day Of The Weekly Cycle, Kislev 17, 5783 82nd. Fall Day

…weeks on the gestation of Christ‘s birth. Thus we cannot just count a fixed number of weeks to determine when Christ was born. Then Jesus could have been born in the May-to-March period. In summary, attempting to determine the date of Christ‘ birth by starting with the occasion when Zacharias served in the temple has serious flaws.

Was Jesus born in September or on December 25? — Using John the Baptist’s birth

Discover if Jesus was born in the month of September. We start with the date that the angel visited the priest Zacharias in the Holy Place.

www.neverthirsty.org

How old was Jesus when the wise men found Him?​

https://www.neverthirsty.org › Bible Q&As



Nov 1, 2017 — The gospel of Matthew reveals that Jesus was about two years of age when the wise men or magi visited Him. It is amazing all the information that Scripture ...
Where was Jesus when the wise men found Him and gave ...
Oct 21, 2016
Can we determine the date of Christ's birth from the visit of the ...
Mar 16, 2019
More results from www.neverthirsty.org

Love, Walter and Debbie

Hello Walter and Debbie.
Are you the authors of the article linked above about the priestly courses?
In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[Stan B]

Monday 12-12-22 2nd. Day Of The Weekly Cycle, Kislev 17, 5783 82nd. Fall Day

…weeks on the gestation of Christ‘s birth. Thus we cannot just count a fixed number of weeks to determine when Christ was born. Then Jesus could have been born in the May-to-March period. In summary, attempting to determine the date of Christ‘ birth by starting with the occasion when Zacharias served in the temple has serious flaws.

Was Jesus born in September or on December 25? — Using John the Baptist’s birth

Discover if Jesus was born in the month of September. We start with the date that the angel visited the priest Zacharias in the Holy Place.

www.neverthirsty.org

How old was Jesus when the wise men found Him?​

https://www.neverthirsty.org › Bible Q&As



Nov 1, 2017 — The gospel of Matthew reveals that Jesus was about two years of age when the wise men or magi visited Him. It is amazing all the information that Scripture ...
Where was Jesus when the wise men found Him and gave ...
Oct 21, 2016
Can we determine the date of Christ's birth from the visit of the ...
Mar 16, 2019
More results from www.neverthirsty.org

Love, Walter and Debbie

The date of Christ’s birth is rather obvious to those familiar with God’s perfect timing and dates!

At the outset the shepherds out in the fields by night. Why? It was the Spring of the year: birthing season! What sacred observance takes place in the spring? Passover!! And what date would God choose to provide the world with the Lamb of God? Passover! And when did God choose to have that Lamb sacrificed? Passover!

And why could Joseph and Mary not find a room to stay in? Because a lot of people were visiting Jerusalem. For what? They were there to celebrate Passover!!

Passover begins on the first day of the year, the 1st of Nissan: Palm Sunday which begins the week to select the perfect Passover Lamb. During the second week, the selected Lamb is observed to ensure it is perfect and has no blemishes. Then the Passover Sacrifice takes place on the on the afternoon of the eve of Passover which is Nissan 14. The ensuing Sunday is the Feast of the First Fruits; Resurrection Day.

 

[WalterandDebbie]

Hello Walter and Debbie.
Are you the authors of the article linked above about the priestly courses?
In Christ,
Pilgrimer

Hello Pilgrimer, No we are not.

Walter

 

[Pilgrimer]

Monday 12-12-22 2nd. Day Of The Weekly Cycle, Kislev 17, 5783 82nd. Fall Day

…weeks on the gestation of Christ‘s birth. Thus we cannot just count a fixed number of weeks to determine when Christ was born. Then Jesus could have been born in the May-to-March period. In summary, attempting to determine the date of Christ‘ birth by starting with the occasion when Zacharias served in the temple has serious flaws.

Was Jesus born in September or on December 25? — Using John the Baptist’s birth

Discover if Jesus was born in the month of September. We start with the date that the angel visited the priest Zacharias in the Holy Place.

www.neverthirsty.org

How old was Jesus when the wise men found Him?​

https://www.neverthirsty.org › Bible Q&As



Nov 1, 2017 — The gospel of Matthew reveals that Jesus was about two years of age when the wise men or magi visited Him. It is amazing all the information that Scripture ...
Where was Jesus when the wise men found Him and gave ...
Oct 21, 2016
Can we determine the date of Christ's birth from the visit of the ...
Mar 16, 2019
More results from www.neverthirsty.org

Love, Walter and Debbie

Thank you for the response. I read the article and did not see the author’s name, is why I asked. I am a New Testament historian and a Christian apologist and have studied the issue of dating the birth of Jesus, as well as his death and resurrection, for over 40 years. I hope that you might be open to further inquiry. I have found that all the evidence, and there is much more to be considered than what is contained in the articles you linked, actually supports the date of December 25 that has been held as that of Jesus’ birth dating back in writing to the 2nd century.

The first issue is the ordering of the priestly courses. The article by “NeverThirsty” has some issues that are quite common. There are a number of finer points of Jewish Law that, of course, Rabbis who were “Doctors” of the Law, were aware of and determined the way the Law was observed during the 2nd Temple period, but a lot of students new to this study are perhaps not familiar with. The first is that during the New Testament period, the Jewish calendar was an observation-based calendar, meaning the beginning of months were not fixed as they are on our calendars. What day the new month began depended on when witnesses in Jerusalem could see with the naked eye the first sliver of the new moon crescent. They would report to the Sanhedrin and, after careful examination, the new month would be established. Each month could be 29 days, or it could be 30 days, depending on their observation. So the beginning of new months and therefore the length of the previous month were variable.

So too were the periodic intercalations to make the lunar year line up with the solar year. They too were variable based on observation of the maturity of the barley crop and whether or not it would be ripe for the first wave-sheaf offering on the 2nd day of Unleavened Bread. But again, intercalations were not fixed, they varied as to frequency and length. This is what makes developing a chronology of the life of Christ difficult, the calendar dates not being fixed, no record has been discovered (yet) that actually records the exact beginning of even the years, let alone the months, during the 2nd Temple period.
It wasn’t until the A.D. 350’s that Hillel II began the gradual displacement of the observation-based Jewish calendar and began to use the Metonic cycle, a system already used by Samuel “Yarhinai,” director of the school of Neharden in Babylon. But the Metonic cycle wasn’t fully codified in the Mishnah Torah until the 12th century by Maimonides. So, the article by NeverThirsty, which uses the fixed, Metonic cycle based calendar to arrange the priestly courses, does not reflect the actual service weeks of the priests during the 2nd Temple period and therefore the dates when events took place.

Another mistake a lot of students are making is in assuming that the priestly services can be determined by the calendar, but the services did not depend on or correlate with calendar dates. They served from Sabbath to Sabbath, Sabbath to Sabbath, each course in rotating order, regardless of the dates on the calendar. The one and only date that the service of a priestly course is known from this New Testament period is the date that Josephus records on which the Temple was destroyed, on the 9/10th Ab, which was Sunday, August 5 of the year A.D. 70. The course of Jehoiarib was on duty. Jehoiarib is the 1st course, and it was serving the 19th week of the year, which proves the courses did not serve 1st course/1st week, 2nd course/2nd week, etc., as so many students assume, such as the chart used in the article by NeverThirsty.

But from that known date when the 1st course of Jehoiarib was on duty, we can calculate backwards because the courses had served in 24-week cycles for at least a hundred years, since the rededication of the Temple by Judas Maccabee. By simply counting the weeks backwards we know that in the year 6 B.C., the year which has historically been maintained as the year before the Lord’s conception and birth, the course of Abijah was on duty October 2/3 – 9/10. It should be noted that the course of Abijah, to which Zacharias belonged, was serving “according to his course,” meaning they were serving during their regular weekly rotation.

However, the Scripture says, “the whole multitude of the people were in prayer outside.” (Luke 1:10) There were three times in the year when the “whole multitude” of the people were required to present themselves at the door of the Tabernacle, and that was the feasts of Passover. Pentecost, and Tabernacles. During the year 6 B.C., the Feast of Tabernacles would have fallen during the week that began with the full moon of the fall and lasted 7 days, September 29 – October 5.

A minor but important point of Law is that during the festivals, the regular course of priests whose week it was to serve still offered the regular daily (morning and evening) and regular Sabbath sacrifices. And all 24 courses offered the manifold festival sacrifices and offerings. There was no “pause” in the regular rotation and service of the 24 courses during the festivals.

By this reckoning based on a known date, Zacharias would have been on duty from the beginning of Tabernacles on Wednesday, September 29 in which he would have taken part in the festival duties while the 7th course was ministering the regular duties. Then on Sabbath, October 2, the 8th course of Abijah to which Zacharias belonged would have taken over the regular daily and Sabbath sacrifices while also participating in the continuing festival sacrifices. Tabernacles would have closed on Tuesday, October 5, and Zacharias would have remained on duty with the rest of the 8th course until Sabbath, October 9 when their duty would have closed, and he would have returned home, a short "sabbath day's journey" to the village of Ein Karem where he and Elizabeth lived just southwest of Jerusalem. After he returned home, John was conceived, which would place John's conception around October 10, and October 10 - November 10 Elizabeth's first month. Her 6th month would be March 10 to April 10. March 25, during Elizabeth's 6th month, has been the date on which Christians have historically marked as the date of Christ's conception, and December 25 the date of his birth.

There is a lengthy discussion about these points of Law respecting the weekly service of the priests in the Talmudic Tractates “Pesach” (Passover) and Sukkah (Tabernacles) which I have linked here, so you can read the ancient Rabbinic commentary that records how the priestly service actually worked during New Testament times.
Sefaria: a Living Library of Jewish Texts Online

So as you can see, there is actually much more about the service of the weekly courses than a lot of students are aware of, and we can quite reliably narrow down the dates the course of Zacharias served in the year before the Lord’s birth. There are two thousand years of sincere and conscientious Christian scholarship that has assessed in minute detail the record of the Scriptures as well as meticulous research into every available historical and, in recent decades, archaeological records, including Jewish Rabbinic commentary on 2nd Temple observance, to establish a reliable chronology for the life of Christ. I hope we Christians will not be too quick to toss all that aside in favor of a few website articles and social media posts that offer new views and opinions that are based on incomplete and often erroneous information.

I would like to address the other issues if you are interested.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[CadyandZoe]

Thank you for the response. I read the article and did not see the author’s name, is why I asked. I am a New Testament historian and a Christian apologist and have studied the issue of dating the birth of Jesus, as well as his death and resurrection, for over 40 years. I hope that you might be open to further inquiry. I have found that all the evidence, and there is much more to be considered than what is contained in the articles you linked, actually supports the date of December 25 that has been held as that of Jesus’ birth dating back in writing to the 2nd century.

The first issue is the ordering of the priestly courses. The article by “NeverThirsty” has some issues that are quite common. There are a number of finer points of Jewish Law that, of course, Rabbis who were “Doctors” of the Law, were aware of and determined the way the Law was observed during the 2nd Temple period, but a lot of students new to this study are perhaps not familiar with. The first is that during the New Testament period, the Jewish calendar was an observation-based calendar, meaning the beginning of months were not fixed as they are on our calendars. What day the new month began depended on when witnesses in Jerusalem could see with the naked eye the first sliver of the new moon crescent. They would report to the Sanhedrin and, after careful examination, the new month would be established. Each month could be 29 days, or it could be 30 days, depending on their observation. So the beginning of new months and therefore the length of the previous month were variable.

So too were the periodic intercalations to make the lunar year line up with the solar year. They too were variable based on observation of the maturity of the barley crop and whether or not it would be ripe for the first wave-sheaf offering on the 2nd day of Unleavened Bread. But again, intercalations were not fixed, they varied as to frequency and length. This is what makes developing a chronology of the life of Christ difficult, the calendar dates not being fixed, no record has been discovered (yet) that actually records the exact beginning of even the years, let alone the months, during the 2nd Temple period.
It wasn’t until the A.D. 350’s that Hillel II began the gradual displacement of the observation-based Jewish calendar and began to use the Metonic cycle, a system already used by Samuel “Yarhinai,” director of the school of Neharden in Babylon. But the Metonic cycle wasn’t fully codified in the Mishnah Torah until the 12th century by Maimonides. So, the article by NeverThirsty, which uses the fixed, Metonic cycle based calendar to arrange the priestly courses, does not reflect the actual service weeks of the priests during the 2nd Temple period and therefore the dates when events took place.

Another mistake a lot of students are making is in assuming that the priestly services can be determined by the calendar, but the services did not depend on or correlate with calendar dates. They served from Sabbath to Sabbath, Sabbath to Sabbath, each course in rotating order, regardless of the dates on the calendar. The one and only date that the service of a priestly course is known from this New Testament period is the date that Josephus records on which the Temple was destroyed, on the 9/10th Ab, which was Sunday, August 5 of the year A.D. 70. The course of Jehoiarib was on duty. Jehoiarib is the 1st course, and it was serving the 19th week of the year, which proves the courses did not serve 1st course/1st week, 2nd course/2nd week, etc., as so many students assume, such as the chart used in the article by NeverThirsty.

But from that known date when the 1st course of Jehoiarib was on duty, we can calculate backwards because the courses had served in 24-week cycles for at least a hundred years, since the rededication of the Temple by Judas Maccabee. By simply counting the weeks backwards we know that in the year 6 B.C., the year which has historically been maintained as the year before the Lord’s conception and birth, the course of Abijah was on duty October 2/3 – 9/10. It should be noted that the course of Abijah, to which Zacharias belonged, was serving “according to his course,” meaning they were serving during their regular weekly rotation.

However, the Scripture says, “the whole multitude of the people were in prayer outside.” (Luke 1:10) There were three times in the year when the “whole multitude” of the people were required to present themselves at the door of the Tabernacle, and that was the feasts of Passover. Pentecost, and Tabernacles. During the year 6 B.C., the Feast of Tabernacles would have fallen during the week that began with the full moon of the fall and lasted 7 days, September 29 – October 5.

A minor but important point of Law is that during the festivals, the regular course of priests whose week it was to serve still offered the regular daily (morning and evening) and regular Sabbath sacrifices. And all 24 courses offered the manifold festival sacrifices and offerings. There was no “pause” in the regular rotation and service of the 24 courses during the festivals.

By this reckoning based on a known date, Zacharias would have been on duty from the beginning of Tabernacles on Wednesday, September 29 in which he would have taken part in the festival duties while the 7th course was ministering the regular duties. Then on Sabbath, October 2, the 8th course of Abijah to which Zacharias belonged would have taken over the regular daily and Sabbath sacrifices while also participating in the continuing festival sacrifices. Tabernacles would have closed on Tuesday, October 5, and Zacharias would have remained on duty with the rest of the 8th course until Sabbath, October 9 when their duty would have closed, and he would have returned home, a short "sabbath day's journey" to the village of Ein Karem where he and Elizabeth lived just southwest of Jerusalem. After he returned home, John was conceived, which would place John's conception around October 10, and October 10 - November 10 Elizabeth's first month. Her 6th month would be March 10 to April 10. March 25, during Elizabeth's 6th month, has been the date on which Christians have historically marked as the date of Christ's conception, and December 25 the date of his birth.

There is a lengthy discussion about these points of Law respecting the weekly service of the priests in the Talmudic Tractates “Pesach” (Passover) and Sukkah (Tabernacles) which I have linked here, so you can read the ancient Rabbinic commentary that records how the priestly service actually worked during New Testament times.
Sefaria: a Living Library of Jewish Texts Online

So as you can see, there is actually much more about the service of the weekly courses than a lot of students are aware of, and we can quite reliably narrow down the dates the course of Zacharias served in the year before the Lord’s birth. There are two thousand years of sincere and conscientious Christian scholarship that has assessed in minute detail the record of the Scriptures as well as meticulous research into every available historical and, in recent decades, archaeological records, including Jewish Rabbinic commentary on 2nd Temple observance, to establish a reliable chronology for the life of Christ. I hope we Christians will not be too quick to toss all that aside in favor of a few website articles and social media posts that offer new views and opinions that are based on incomplete and often erroneous information.

I would like to address the other issues if you are interested.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

If you worked it out so that Jesus was born on December 25, you made an error in your calculation.

 

[WalterandDebbie]

Thank you for the response. I read the article and did not see the author’s name, is why I asked. I am a New Testament historian and a Christian apologist and have studied the issue of dating the birth of Jesus, as well as his death and resurrection, for over 40 years. I hope that you might be open to further inquiry. I have found that all the evidence, and there is much more to be considered than what is contained in the articles you linked, actually supports the date of December 25 that has been held as that of Jesus’ birth dating back in writing to the 2nd century.

Hello Pilgrimer, About the Author

 

[Pilgrimer]

If you worked it out so that Jesus was born on December 25, you made an error in your calculation.

Show me my error and if you are correct I am more than wiling to revise my calculations. My faith rests on the birth, life, death, and resurrection of Jesus, regardless of what dates in history those events occurred. So for me, it is not a matter of faith or even of doctrine what date Jesus was born or died. But as a historian who loves and has devoted my life to studying everything that can possibly be known about the life and times of Jesus, I have drawn conclusions about the chronology of Jesus' life based on the weight of all the actual historical evidence from all the available sources: the Scriptures, ancient manuscripts and writings, archaeological artifacts, numismatic evidence, and even meteorological data. But again, I am always open to new information.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[CadyandZoe]

Show me my error and if you are correct I am more than wiling to revise my calculations. My faith rests on the birth, life, death, and resurrection of Jesus, regardless of what dates in history those events occurred. So for me, it is not a matter of faith or even of doctrine what date Jesus was born or died. But as a historian who loves and has devoted my life to studying everything that can possibly be known about the life and times of Jesus, I have drawn conclusions about the chronology of Jesus' life based on the weight of all the actual historical evidence from all the available sources: the Scriptures, ancient manuscripts and writings, archaeological artifacts, numismatic evidence, and even meteorological data. But again, I am always open to new information.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

Shepherds.

 

[Pilgrimer]

Shepherds.

What about shepherds?

I would be happy to provide a lot of historical information, first and primarily from the Scriptures, but also from Talmudic records, as well as meteorological data, about both the wilderness flocks and the Temple flocks and the practices of shepherding during New Testament times, actually throughout Biblical times as shepherding didn't much change from the time of Abraham. But it's a rather lot of material. What in particular are you referring to?

Are you perhaps referring to the question whether or not shepherds would be in the fields at Bethlehem on Christmas eve when the average low temperature is 52 degrees Fahrenheit (Climate & Weather Averages in Bethlehem, West Bank, Palestine), such as in this Christmas Eve photo of Arab shepherds in the "Shepherd's Field" of Bayt Sahur taken by British soldiers c. 1898-1946 with Bethlehem on the ridge in the background?



I am familiar with the mistake made by Lightfoot in his commentary on the Mishnaic passage about the wilderness flock that "goes out" in the spring and "returns" again in the fall, and many, many students have drawn the mistaken conclusion that meant sheep would not be "out" in the fields in December. It is a simple error but has led to a great deal of confusion. Is that perhaps what you are referring to?

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[CadyandZoe]

What about shepherds?

I would be happy to provide a lot of historical information, first and primarily from the Scriptures, but also from Talmudic records, as well as meteorological data, about both the wilderness flocks and the Temple flocks and the practices of shepherding during New Testament times, actually throughout Biblical times as shepherding didn't much change from the time of Abraham. But it's a rather lot of material. What in particular are you referring to?

Are you perhaps referring to the question whether or not shepherds would be in the fields at Bethlehem on Christmas eve when the average low temperature is 52 degrees Fahrenheit (Climate & Weather Averages in Bethlehem, West Bank, Palestine), such as in this Christmas Eve photo of Arab shepherds in the "Shepherd's Field" of Bayt Sahur taken by British soldiers c. 1898-1946 with Bethlehem on the ridge in the background?

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I am familiar with the mistake made by Lightfoot in his commentary on the Mishnaic passage about the wilderness flock that "goes out" in the spring and "returns" again in the fall, and many, many students have drawn the mistaken conclusion that meant sheep would not be "out" in the fields in December. It is a simple error but has led to a great deal of confusion. Is that perhaps what you are referring to?

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

I don't consider the Talmud to be a reliable source of information with regard to the life of Jesus. So no, I don't want to see the Talmud. No Christian should trust anything it says with regard to Jesus. The Jews hated Jesus and would certainly change the facts to fit the official narrative in his regard.

If you are getting your information from the Talmud, then you were lied to.

 

[Pilgrimer]

I don't consider the Talmud to be a reliable source of information with regard to the life of Jesus. So no, I don't want to see the Talmud. No Christian should trust anything it says with regard to Jesus. The Jews hated Jesus and would certainly change the facts to fit the official narrative in his regard.

If you are getting your information from the Talmud, then you were lied to.

The Talmudic writings are not about the life of Jesus. They are historical records that detail the way in which the Jewish people lived and observed the Old Covenant during New Testament times. That Jewish background is helpful to know in trying to understand the world in which Jesus lived, and to reconstruct the events that occurred during his life. Christian historians, myself included, also don't agree with the religious beliefs of Romans or Greeks or Egyptians or the Chinese, or any other ancient people, but we don't toss aside their historical records because we don't agree with their beliefs. If we did that, there would be no history.

Besides, if you are laboring under the mistaken notion that shepherds would not be in the fields in December, you should be aware that idea came from the Talmud!

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[CadyandZoe]

The Talmudic writings are not about the life of Jesus. They are historical records that detail the way in which the Jewish people lived and observed the Old Covenant during New Testament times. That Jewish background is helpful to know in trying to understand the world in which Jesus lived, and to reconstruct the events that occurred during his life. Christian historians, myself included, also don't agree with the religious beliefs of Romans or Greeks or Egyptians or the Chinese, or any other ancient people, but we don't toss aside their historical records because we don't agree with their beliefs. If we did that, there would be no history.

Besides, if you are laboring under the mistaken notion that shepherds would not be in the fields in December, you should be aware that idea came from the Talmud!

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

The Talmud was written after the Roman wars, after the ruling class was thrown down. Obviously, God judged Israel and especially the religious leadership. Unwilling to repent and admit to sin and rebellion against God, the Rabbi's rewrote history in order to blame Jesus and his followers for losing the war.

I toss aside the Talmud because it's fake history. I can clearly see that the Talmud was written to discredit Jesus and his followers. After the fall of the Jewish temple, the Rabbis decided to rewrite history to make themselves look good and to libel Jesus Christ.

Ever heard of "fake news?" How about "fake history?" You can't see it?

Don't fall for it.

 

[Pilgrimer]

The Talmud was written after the Roman wars, after the ruling class was thrown down. Obviously, God judged Israel and especially the religious leadership. Unwilling to repent and admit to sin and rebellion against God, the Rabbi's rewrote history in order to blame Jesus and his followers for losing the war.

I toss aside the Talmud because it's fake history. I can clearly see that the Talmud was written to discredit Jesus and his followers. After the fall of the Jewish temple, the Rabbis decided to rewrite history to make themselves look good and to libel Jesus Christ.

Ever heard of "fake news?" How about "fake history?" You can't see it?

Don't fall for it.

Very well, since you refuse to accept any evidence from these Jewish writings about 1st century Jewish law and practice, then you have to "toss aside" the notion that sheep would not be in the fields in December, because that theory is based on a misunderstanding of a passage from the Talmud. So what are your views now about those shepherds?

But that was not the only evidence I offered anyway. The photo was taken by British soldiers on Christmas Eve of shepherds and sheep actually bedded down in the valley just outside Bethlehem that is to this day called "the shepherd's field." You didn't comment on that.

Also, I linked to evidence that the temperature certainly doesn't prevent wooly sheep and rugged shepherds from being outside on Christmas Eve, the weather is actually quite mild. You also didn't comment on that.

And that doesn't even begin to address the "Temple flock" that was kept at Bethlehem and were in the fields night and day year round.

Here's another photo of a shepherd and his flock in the fields just outside Bethlehem on Christmas Day, c. 1890. That's Bethlehem on the ridge in the background.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer