Was Jesus crucified?

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Matthias

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FIRSTBORN

This word "firstborn" (prōtotokos) is used in the Bible in several distinct senses.

1. its OT background refers to

a. the firstborn belongs to YHWH (BDB 114, KB 131, cf. Exod. 13:2,12; 22:29; 34:19; Num. 3:13)

b. the pre-imminence of the firstborn son of the family (cf. Deut. 21:17; Ps. 89:27; Luke 2:7; Rom. 8:29; Heb. 11:28)

2. its use in Col. 1:15 speaks of Jesus as the first of creation which is a possible OT allusion to Pro. 8:22-31, or God's agent of creation (cf. John 1:3; 1 Cor. 8:6; Col. 1:15-16; Heb. 1:2)

3. its use in Col. 1:15,18; 1 Cor. 15:20,23; Rev. 1:5 refers to Jesus as the firstborn from the dead

4. it is an OT title used of the Messiah (cf. Ps. 89:27; Heb. 1:6; 12:23); it is a title which combines several aspects of the primacy and centrality of Jesus.


1Co 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

1Co 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

1Co 10:3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

1Co 10:5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.


1Co 10:6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.


Christ. . As the source of their supply, He is called the Rock. Compare Deu_32:4, Deu_32:15, Deu_32:18, Deu_32:30, Deu_32:31, Deu_32:37. Psa_19:14; &c.

ἐκ πνευματ. ἀκολ. πέτρας· ἡ δὲ πέτρα ἦν ὁ Χ.] from a spiritual rock that followed them; the Rock, however (which we speak of here), was Christ. Πνευματικῆς has the emphasis; it corresponds to the preceding πνευματικόν, and is explained more specifically by ἡ δὲ π. ἦν ὁ Χ. The relation denoted by ἀκολουθούσης, again, is assumed to be self-evident, and therefore no further explanation is given of the word. The thoughts, to which Paul here gives expression, are the following:—(1) To guard and help the Israelites in their journey through the wilderness, Christ accompanied them, namely, in His pre-existent divine nature, and consequently as the Son of God (= the Λόγος of John),

who afterwards appeared as man (comp Wis_10:15 ff.). (2) The rock, from which the water that they drank flowed, was not an ordinary natural rock, but a πέτρα πνευματική; not the mere appearance or phantasm of a rock, but an actual one, although of supernatural and heavenly origin, inasmuch as it was the real self-revelation and manifestation of the Son of God, who invisibly accompanied the host on its march; it was, in other words, the very Christ from heaven, as being His own substantial and efficient presentation of Himself to men (comp Targ. Isa_16:1, and Philo’s view, p. 1103 A, that the rock was the σοφία).

(3) Such being the state of the case as to the rock, it must of necessity be a rock that followed, that accompanied and went with the children of Israel in their way through the desert; for Christ in His pre-existent condition, the heavenly “substratum,” so to speak, of this rock, went constantly with them, so that everywhere in the wilderness His essential presence could manifest itself in their actual experience through the rock with its abundant water; and, in point of fact, did so manifest itself again and again. In drinking from the rock, they had their thirst quenched by Christ, who, making the rock His form of manifestation, supplied the water from Himself, although this marvellous speciality about the way in which their thirst was met remained hidden from the Israelites.

Since the apostle’s words thus clearly and completely explain themselves, we have no right to ascribe to Paul, what was a later invention of the Rabbins, the notion that the rock rolled along after the marching host (Bammidbar, R. S. 1; Onkelos on Num_21:18-20; and see Wetstein and Schöttgen, also Lund, Heiligth., ed. Wolf, p. 251); such fictions as these, when compared with what the apostle actually says, should certainly be regarded as extravagant aftergrowths (in opposition to Rückert and de Wette). It is just as unwarrantable, however, to explain away, by any exegetical expedient, this rock which followed them, and which was Christ. The attempts which have been made with this view run directly counter to the plain meaning of the words; e.g. the interpretation of Erasmus, Beza, Calvin, Piscator, Drusius, Grotius, Lightfoot, Billroth, al[1587] (which dates from Theodore of Mopsuestia), that the rock means here what came from it, the water (!), which, they hold, followed the people and prefigured Christ (ἦν). That ἦν denotes here significabat (so too Augustine, Vatablus, Salmasius, Bengel, Loesner, al[1588]), is a purely arbitrary assumption, seeing that Paul neither says ἐστί, nor τύπος ἦν, or the like, nor even indicates in any way in the context a typico-allegorical reference. This applies also against what Ch. F. Fritzsche has in his Nova opusc. p. 261: “The rock in the wilderness was a rock of blessing, strength, and life-giving for the Jews, and thus it prefigures Christ,” etc. Paul does not say anything of the sort; it is simply his expositors who insert it on their own authority. Baur, too, does violence to the apostle’s words (comp his neut. Theol. p. 193), by asserting that Paul speaks of Christ as the πνευμ. πέτρα only in so far as he saw a type which had reference to Christ in the rock that followed the Israelites, according to the allegoric interpretation which he put upon it.[1590] See, in opposition to this, Räbiger, Christol. Paul. p. 31 f.; Weiss, bibl. Theol. p. 319. The ordinary exposition comes nearer to the truth, but fails to reach it in this respect, that it does not keep firm enough hold of the statement, that “that rock was Christ,” and so of its identity with Him, but takes Christ to be the Rock only in an ideal and figurative sense, regarding Him as different from the rock from which the water flowed, but as the author of its supply. So, in substance, Chrysostom,[1591] Oecumenius, Theophylact, Melanchthon, Cornelius a Lapide, and many others, among whom are Flatt, Kling in the Stud. und Krit. 1839, p. 835; Osiander, Neander, Hofmann.[1592]
[1583] Bengel well says: “Si plura essent N. T. sacramenta, ceteris quoque simile quiddam posuisset Paulus.” At the same time, it should be observed that the ecclesiastical notion of a sacrament does not appear in the N. T., but is an abstraction from the common characteristics of the two ordinances in question. Both, however, are equally essential and characteristic elements in the fellowship of the Christian life. Comp. Baur, neut. Theol. p. 200; Weiss, bibl. Theol. p. 353.
[1587] l. and others; and other passages; and other editions.
[1588] l. and others; and other passages; and other editions.
[1590] Baur is wholly unwarranted in taking πνευματικός, ver. 3 f., in the sense of typical or allegorically significant. His appeal to Rev_11:8 and Barnab. 10 is irrelevant.
[1591] οὐ γὰρ ἡ τῆς πέτρας φύσις τὸ ὕδωρ ἠφίει φησὶν οὐ γὰρ ἂν καὶ πρὸ τούτου ἀνέβλυζεν, ἀλλ ἑτέρα τις πέτρα πνευματικὴ τὸ πᾶν εἰργάζετο, τουτέστιν ὁ Χριστὸς ὁ παρὼν αὐτοῖς πανταχοῦ καὶ πάντα θαυματουργῶν.
[1592] Comp. his Schriftbew. I. p. 171: “The rock from which the water flowed was a natural one, and stood fast in its own place; but the true Rock that really gave the water was the öåÌø éÄùÒÀøÈàÅì (Isa_30:29), was Jehovah, who went with Israel.” By not calling the Rock God, but Christ, the apostle points forward, as it were (according to Hofmann), to the application which he is about to make of the words, namely, to the cup which Christ gives us to drink. But Paul’s words are so simple, clear, and definite, that it is impossible to get off by any quid pro quo. For the rest, it is to be observed that in this passage, as in the previous one, where the crossing of the sea is taken as a typical prefiguration of baptism, we have doubtless a Rabbinical process of thought on the part of the apostle, which, as such, is not to be measured by the taste of our day, so that this unvarnished exegetical conception of it might be set down as something “absurd,” as is done by Hofmann. The Rabbinical culture of his time, under which the apostle grew up, was not done away with by the fact of his becoming the vessel of divine grace, revelation, and power. Comp. Gal_4:22 ff. Our passage has nothing whatever to do with Isa_30:29, where men go up into the temple to Jehovah, the Rock of Israel. It is of importance, however, in connection with Paul’s doctrine regarding the pre-existence of Christ and its accordance with the doctrine of the Logos.
H-Meyer.
J.
Tell us about his views concerning his God.
 

Johann

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Easy, yes. But not correct. I’m sorry that Board policy doesn’t allow it to be discussed.
Easy way out for you-the Triune Godhead should be the primary discussion-since it is linked with the death and resurrection of our great God and Savior-Jesus Christ.
J.
 

Johann

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You can’t help me because you have a deity which Jesus doesn’t.
You are not dealing with a "moron" online-where I receive daily e mails-I said-this topic on the Triune Godhead of Christ Jesus should be reopened and closely examined-since this is directly linked with the death and resurrection of Mashiach.
And since you are in denial of the Deity of Christ I see you as another Imam-Orthodox Judaism-embracing their beliefs-not that of Scriptures.
 

Johann

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Tell us about his views concerning his God.
He has a very high-Christological view of Christ Jesus.
1Co 10:2 And all into Moshe Rabbenu were given tevilah in the anan (cloud) and in the sea,

1Co 10:3 And all of the same spiritual okhel (food) ate [SHEMOT 16:4,35; DEVARIM 8:3; TEHILLIM 78:24-29],

1Co 10:4 And all of the same spiritual drink drank, for they were drinking from a spiritual TZUR following them [SHEMOT 17:6; BAMIDBAR 20:11; TEHILLIM 78:15;

105:41], and that TZUR was Moshiach.


1Co 10:5 But Hashem was not pleased with most of them, for they were strewn about in the desert, VAYISHCHATEM BAMIDBAR ("then He slaughtered them in the desert" [BAMIDBAR 14:16, 23,29-30; TEHILLIM 78:31).

1Co 10:2 And all were baptized to Moses in the cloud, and in the Sea,

1Co 10:3 and all ate the same spiritual food.

1Co 10:4 And all drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank of the spiritual rock following, and that Rock was Messiah.

1Co 10:5 Yet YAHWEH was not pleased with most of them, "For they were scattered in the deserted place." (Num. 14:16)

1Co 10:6 But these things became examples for us, so that we may not be lusting after evil, even as those indeed lusted.

Who is the Tzur?
 

Matthias

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You are not dealing with a "moron" online-where I receive daily e mails-I said-this topic on the Triune Godhead of Christ Jesus should be reopened and closely examined-since this is directly linked with the death and resurrection of Mashiach.
And since you are in denial of the Deity of Christ I see you as another Imam-Orthodox Judaism-embracing their beliefs-not that of Scriptures.

I don’t think you’re a moron.
 

Matthias

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He has a very high-Christological view of Christ Jesus.
1Co 10:2 And all into Moshe Rabbenu were given tevilah in the anan (cloud) and in the sea,

1Co 10:3 And all of the same spiritual okhel (food) ate [SHEMOT 16:4,35; DEVARIM 8:3; TEHILLIM 78:24-29],

1Co 10:4 And all of the same spiritual drink drank, for they were drinking from a spiritual TZUR following them [SHEMOT 17:6; BAMIDBAR 20:11; TEHILLIM 78:15;

105:41], and that TZUR was Moshiach.


1Co 10:5 But Hashem was not pleased with most of them, for they were strewn about in the desert, VAYISHCHATEM BAMIDBAR ("then He slaughtered them in the desert" [BAMIDBAR 14:16, 23,29-30; TEHILLIM 78:31).

1Co 10:2 And all were baptized to Moses in the cloud, and in the Sea,

1Co 10:3 and all ate the same spiritual food.

1Co 10:4 And all drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank of the spiritual rock following, and that Rock was Messiah.

1Co 10:5 Yet YAHWEH was not pleased with most of them, "For they were scattered in the deserted place." (Num. 14:16)

1Co 10:6 But these things became examples for us, so that we may not be lusting after evil, even as those indeed lusted.

Who is the Tzur?

I asked you to tell us about Jesus’view concerning his God - the easy way out of following other deities.
 

Matthias

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Read the passage again-and if Messiah was just a "created being" why do we find Him in the Tanack?

You can’t do the simple request.

As for your question, Jesus is prophesied in the Tanakh and Paul is using typology.
 

Johann

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You can’t do the simple request.

As for your question, Jesus is prophesied in the Tanakh and Paul is using typology.
I can't do a simple request? According to who?


For your information-the early Christians did not invented the "Trinitas"
 

Johann

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Have you told me what Jesus’ view is concerning his God?



I dealt with this extensively before the Board policy was enacted.
Hence the reason why I posted this video-and have tons of ancient rabbinical sources CONFIRMING that Jesus was both God and Man.
Even the Catholics have it right and our forbears and how they believed re the Deity of Messiah.
You know where I'm coming from and desperately want to "plug the hole"
Since the majority of topics is majoring on minors-each one attacking the other-everyone "right" in their own esteem-why scared in reopening what is closed?

The Deity of Christ should NOT be a "closed book" since His Deity is directly linked with His death and resurrection.

Here is definitive proof that the "Trinity doctrine did not start with the Church" but was well known among the rabbis.
You "brush off" the preexistent Mashiach as a "typology" in the Pauline letters!

But-I'll be patient-who knows, something might happen.


Several places in the New Testament explicitly teach Jesus’ pre-existence. Jesus said, “And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began” (John 17:5). This passage alone is sufficient to show that the Scripture supports Jesus’ pre-existence, but it is just one of many such passages. Jesus Himself explicitly taught His own pre-existence (John 3:13; 6:33, 38, 62; 8:23; 16:28). Christ even said that He existed prior to Abraham’s birth (John 8:58–59) even though Abraham’s birth preceded Jesus’ own birth by many centuries! Several texts present Jesus as pre-existing with His Father (Romans 8:3; 1 John 1:2; Galatians 4:4). Several passages even identify Jesus as the Creator (John 1:2–3; Colossians 1:16–17; Hebrews 1:2).

Probably the most powerful evidence for the pre-existence of Christ was the very behavior of Jesus Himself. He was often doing and saying things that only the God of Israel had the right or power to do. Jesus’ healing of the paralytic in Mark 2 was done to demonstrate His authority and His ability to forgive sins (Mark 2:3–12). Jesus’ Jewish audience was well aware that such actions were reserved only for Yahweh. Jesus’ actions in Luke 7 drew a similar reaction (Luke 7:48–50).

That Jesus pre-existed in His divinity is further proven by His being the object of worship repeatedly in the Gospels (Matthew 28:9, 17; Luke 24:52; John 9:38; 20:28). Never did Jesus reject such adoration. He saw such worship as entirely appropriate. Jesus implied that He had authority over the Sabbath (Mark 2:28) as well as the authority to abolish the Law (Ephesians 2:14–15). Such behavior is sheer blasphemy coming from anyone short of a divine (and therefore pre-existent) Person.

In addition, Jesus identified Himself as the divine Son of Man (Mark 14:61–64) and claimed to be able to raise Himself from the dead (John 10:17–18)! This turned out to be the very miracle that He claimed would authenticate His radical claims and ministry (Matthew 12:38–40;16:1–4). Jesus accomplished this grand miracle and gave convincing proof of it (Luke 24:36–43; John 20:26; 21:1-14; Acts 1:3–6). This miracle established Jesus’ claim to deity and thus provides further confirmation of His pre-existence.

pre-existence-Jesus
 

Matthias

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Hence the reason why I posted this video-and have tons of ancient rabbinical sources CONFIRMING that Jesus was both God and Man.
Even the Catholics have it right and our forbears and how they believed re the Deity of Messiah.
You know where I'm coming from and desperately want to "plug the hole"
Since the majority of topics is majoring on minors-each one attacking the other-everyone "right" in their own esteem-why scared in reopening what is closed?

The Deity of Christ should NOT be a "closed book" since His Deity is directly linked with His death and resurrection.

Here is definitive proof that the "Trinity doctrine did not start with the Church" but was well known among the rabbis.
You "brush off" the preexistent Mashiach as a "typology" in the Pauline letters!

But-I'll be patient-who knows, something might happen.


Several places in the New Testament explicitly teach Jesus’ pre-existence. Jesus said, “And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began” (John 17:5). This passage alone is sufficient to show that the Scripture supports Jesus’ pre-existence, but it is just one of many such passages. Jesus Himself explicitly taught His own pre-existence (John 3:13; 6:33, 38, 62; 8:23; 16:28). Christ even said that He existed prior to Abraham’s birth (John 8:58–59) even though Abraham’s birth preceded Jesus’ own birth by many centuries! Several texts present Jesus as pre-existing with His Father (Romans 8:3; 1 John 1:2; Galatians 4:4). Several passages even identify Jesus as the Creator (John 1:2–3; Colossians 1:16–17; Hebrews 1:2).

Probably the most powerful evidence for the pre-existence of Christ was the very behavior of Jesus Himself. He was often doing and saying things that only the God of Israel had the right or power to do. Jesus’ healing of the paralytic in Mark 2 was done to demonstrate His authority and His ability to forgive sins (Mark 2:3–12). Jesus’ Jewish audience was well aware that such actions were reserved only for Yahweh. Jesus’ actions in Luke 7 drew a similar reaction (Luke 7:48–50).

That Jesus pre-existed in His divinity is further proven by His being the object of worship repeatedly in the Gospels (Matthew 28:9, 17; Luke 24:52; John 9:38; 20:28). Never did Jesus reject such adoration. He saw such worship as entirely appropriate. Jesus implied that He had authority over the Sabbath (Mark 2:28) as well as the authority to abolish the Law (Ephesians 2:14–15). Such behavior is sheer blasphemy coming from anyone short of a divine (and therefore pre-existent) Person.

In addition, Jesus identified Himself as the divine Son of Man (Mark 14:61–64) and claimed to be able to raise Himself from the dead (John 10:17–18)! This turned out to be the very miracle that He claimed would authenticate His radical claims and ministry (Matthew 12:38–40;16:1–4). Jesus accomplished this grand miracle and gave convincing proof of it (Luke 24:36–43; John 20:26; 21:1-14; Acts 1:3–6). This miracle established Jesus’ claim to deity and thus provides further confirmation of His pre-existence.

pre-existence-Jesus

You can’t do the simple thing that I asked you to do and you can’t abide by the Board policy.
 

Johann

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You can’t do the simple thing that I asked you to do and you can’t abide by the Board policy.
I am appealing to the Board policy to open a thread on the DEITY of Christ Jesus-that INCLUDES the Triune Godhead-His death and resurrection, since you have a very low Christological view of Christ-and see you as the same with Modern Orthodox Judaism and Islam-embracing their beliefs.

Otherwise-get rid of me.
You are already "up in arms" and that doesn't surprise me one bit.
Here is what I want you to do-Report me to the Admin.
Thanks.
 

Matthias

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I am appealing to the Board policy to open a thread on the DEITY of Christ Jesus-that INCLUDES the Triune Godhead-His death and resurrection, since you have a very low Christological view of Christ-and see you as the same with Modern Orthodox Judaism and Islam-embracing their beliefs.

Otherwise-get rid of me.
You are already "up in arms" and that doesn't surprise me one bit.
Here is what I want you to do-Report me to the Admin.
Thanks.

You know what you’re doing is against Board policy. Have you reported yourself to the Admin?
 
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