Was Jesus Guilty Of Unbelief?

[dfj]

I have a question, if most here believe that Jesus is God, how on earth can you live with the errant translation of Matt 27:46, Mark 15:34??

 

[Amazing Grace]

First of all I don't know what you think the error is? :blink:

So if you care to give us more detail we may be able to answer your question.

 

[tomwebster]

I have a question, if most here believe that Jesus is God, how on earth can you live with the errant translation of Matt 27:46, Mark 15:34??

What is the error? Christ was quoting David from Psalm 22:

Psa 22:1 To the chief Musician upon Aijeleth Shahar, A Psalm of David. My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?
Psa 22:2 O my God, I cry in the daytime, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.
Psa 22:3 But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel.
Psa 22:4 Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them.
Psa 22:5 They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded.
Psa 22:6 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
Psa 22:7 All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,
Psa 22:8 He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.
Psa 22:9 But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts.
Psa 22:10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.
Psa 22:11 Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help.
Psa 22:12 Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.
Psa 22:13 They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.
Psa 22:14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.
Psa 22:15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
Psa 22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
Psa 22:17 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.
Psa 22:18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
Psa 22:19 But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me.
Psa 22:20 Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog.
Psa 22:21 Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.
Psa 22:22 I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.
Psa 22:23 Ye that fear the LORD, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel.
Psa 22:24 For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.
Psa 22:25 My praise shall be of thee in the great congregation: I will pay my vows before them that fear him.
Psa 22:26 The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the LORD that seek him: your heart shall live for ever.
Psa 22:27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.
Psa 22:28 For the kingdom is the LORD'S: and he is the governor among the nations.
Psa 22:29 All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.
Psa 22:30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.
Psa 22:31 They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this.

"He has done this" translated to Greek is the same as "It is Finished!"

 

[the stranger]

[sup] Hi Dave. It looks like u have been here a while. Good to talk with you.

You probably already have heard the short answer, but simply put, Christians believe in the Holy Trinity, meaning God is One, one in three and three in one, the God Head, being the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. Jesus, being part of that God head from the start, came down to earth as human form, though still being perfect and still being God, but limiting Himself to human standards, so as to be able to help us with every temptation we may go through, and most importantly, if Jesus did not come to earth as human, yet remaining perfect, the sins of humans could have never been paid for, and we would have been separated from the closeness of God forever.

Bottom line, though Jesus was God, He was one part of the God head, the Son, which again, is three in one and one in three. It is a mystery that is hard to understand but probably best is represented by marriage here on earth where two are to become as one. One marriage, and counted together as one whole, but it consist of both the husband and the wife. Sadly, most marriages never see this fullness become a reality.

God bless[/sup]

 

[dfj]

What is the error? Christ was quoting David from Psalm 22:

No he wasn't!

First of all I don't know what you think the error is? :blink:

So if you care to give us more detail we may be able to answer your question.

Just look at the implications of Jesus believing that His Father had forsaken Him!

First of all. that would make Him guilty of unbelief,

Secondly, how many new Believers would have stuck around knowing that at any time God could just forsake them?

Third, if Jesus was God, how could He forsake Himself?

 

[tomwebster]

No he wasn't!

...

Have you ever read Matt 27:46 or Mark 15:34 or Pslam 22?

Mat 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Mar 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Psa 22:1 To the chief Musician upon Aijeleth Shahar, A Psalm of David. My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

Why is it hard for you to understand that Christ was quoting Scripture. Read Psalm 22, all of it!

 

[dfj]

Have you ever read Matt 27:46 or Mark 15:34 or Pslam 22?

Absolutely!

Have you ever read Matt 27:46 or Mark 15:34 in the Aramaic Peshita or the Hebrew Matthew or Lamsa?

Not close enough to Psalm 22, and besides, trace the supposed connection to Psalm 22?

Who was the first to come up with the connection?

 

[rockytopva]

No he wasn't!

Just look at the implications of Jesus believing that His Father had forsaken Him!

First of all. that would make Him guilty of unbelief,

Secondly, how many new Believers would have stuck around knowing that at any time God could just forsake them?

Third, if Jesus was God, how could He forsake Himself?

1. The Cross - Don't forget that Jesus carried his own wood... He was at the end of his physical energies here.
2. The Payment - The payment for we sinners was tough - All the more reason to stick around him
3. Jesus - As E = mc2 so m = E /c2... All light and energy belong to the Heavenly Father. Jesus on earth only had the power of a man. He only received the power of a God after he ascended to his Heavenly Father.

God the Father can only take so much of the human nature...

Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.- Exodus 23:20
Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.- Exodus 23:21




Notice when leading the children of Israel that God sent an angel to lead the way. Notice that it was not God himself but and angel that led the children our of Sinai. Had God tried to lead them out his anger would have waxed hot and it would have destroyed them.

 

[Selene]

Absolutely!

Have you ever read Matt 27:46 or Mark 15:34 in the Aramaic Peshita or the Hebrew Matthew or Lamsa?

Not close enough to Psalm 22, and besides, trace the supposed connection to Psalm 22?

Who was the first to come up with the connection?

Jesus words were pointing to Psalm 22. He wanted the Jews to remember that Psalm because if you read further in the Psalm, the things that are mentioned in the psalms were happening to him at that moment as he was being crucified. For example, they divided his garments by lot. Jesus pointed to Psalm 22 so they would know who He is.

 

[dfj]

Jesus words were pointing to Psalm 22. He wanted the Jews to remember that Psalm because if you read further in the Psalm, the things that are mentioned in the psalms were happening to him at that moment as he was being crucified. For example, they divided his garments by lot. Jesus pointed to Psalm 22 so they would know who He is.

I appreciate the comment but it is just speculation as Scripture neither bears out this connection nor does it support the transliteration of the two verses.

 

[Selene]

I appreciate the comment but it is just speculation as Scripture neither bears out this connection nor does it support the transliteration of the two verses.

It was Jesus who made the connection, and that is all that matters. Jesus did not come to save Himself because He was already saved. He came to save mankind. If mankind knew who He is and believed in Him, they would be saved.

 

[tomwebster]

Absolutely!

Have you ever read Matt 27:46 or Mark 15:34 in the Aramaic Peshita or the Hebrew Matthew or Lamsa?

Not close enough to Psalm 22, and besides, trace the supposed connection to Psalm 22?
...

Mat 27:46 περι δε την ενατην ωραν ανεβοησεν ο ιησους φωνη μεγαλη λεγων ηλι(G2241) ηλι(G2241) λιμα(G2982) σαβαχθανι(G4518) τουτ εστιν θεε μου θεε μου ινα τι με εγκατελιπες

Psa 22:1 למנצחH5329 עלH5921 אילתH365 השׁחרH7837 מזמורH4210 לדוד׃H1732 (22:2) אליH410 אליH410 למהH4100 עזבתניH5800 רחוקH7350 מישׁועתי3444 דברי1697 שׁאגתי׃H7581

Psa 22:1 למנצח על־אילת השׁחר מזמור לדוד׃ (22:2) אלי אלי למה עזבתני רחוק מישׁועתי דברי שׁאגתי׃

 

[dfj]

Mat 27:46 περι δε την ενατην ωραν ανεβοησεν ο ιησους φωνη μεγαλη λεγων ηλι(G2241) ηλι(G2241) λιμα(G2982) σαβαχθανι(G4518) τουτ εστιν θεε μου θεε μου ινα τι με εγκατελιπες

Psa 22:1 למנצחH5329 עלH5921 אילתH365 השׁחרH7837 מזמורH4210 לדוד׃H1732 (22:2) אליH410 אליH410 למהH4100 עזבתניH5800 רחוקH7350 מישׁועתי3444 דברי1697 שׁאגתי׃H7581

Psa 22:1 למנצח על־אילת השׁחר מזמור לדוד׃ (22:2) אלי אלי למה עזבתני רחוק מישׁועתי דברי שׁאגתי׃

Let me ask again, [font="tahoma][size="2"]Have you ever read Matt 27:46 or Mark 15:34 in the Aramaic Peshita or the Hebrew Matthew?[/size][/font]
[font="tahoma] [/font][/color]
[color="#5D5D5D"][font="tahoma]
[/font]

 

[Amazing Grace]

Absolutely!

Have you ever read Matt 27:46 or Mark 15:34 in the Aramaic Peshita or the Hebrew Matthew or Lamsa?

The Lamsa? 46 About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"--which means, My God, My God for this I was kept.

So how do you get Jesus doubting from this do you? {refering to your thread title} A bit thin to say we have bad versions of God's Word and therefore make Christ guilty of Unbelief.

I really can see from the fact you are into all these supposed better versions of the Bible you will probably not be interested in what I am about to say. So this is not for you Dave Jones. This is for the people who are following this thread who might have some interest.

People, when you read God's Word you need to read it together with other scripture not just use one verse here or there it has to fit in with what you have read elsewhere in the Bible.

Jesus was not surprised on the Cross when he experienced what he did. No, Jesus knew full well what he was going to face. After all he was the very Son of God and unlike you and me he had the ability to know the future.

What did Jesus say to His Apostles during His ministry?

MT 16:21 From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.

Certainly Jesus knew his fate and was heading to that final act His whole life.

LK 22:39 Jesus went out as usual to the Mount of Olives, and his disciples followed him. 40 On reaching the place, he said to them, "Pray that you will not fall into temptation." 41 He withdrew about a stone's throw beyond them, knelt down and prayed, 42 "Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done." 43 An angel from heaven appeared to him and strengthened him. 44 And being in anguish, he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground.

Jesus prayed and was strengthened by an Angel from Heaven to be able to endure what was about to happen to Him. Jesus had prepared Himself and willingly went to the Cross in obedience to His Father.

So why would he be stunned or have doubt on the Cross? Jesus was not!

Many good Teachers/Preachers of God's Word teach us that Jesus was in agony at this point for God had poured upon Jesus all our sins and that was a hard thing to bear. For one moment in time the Lord turned away from His Son because the Lord God is Holy and cannot receive sin in His presence. For the first time in their entire existence Jesus was separated from His Father God through Sin, our Sin not His own. "My God, My God for his I was kept" or "My God, My God why has though forsaken me". A cry of anguish as that moment of separation came and went. Nothing more than that but Jesus crying out in anguish.

I have no idea how anyone can come to the conclusion that Jesus had doubt because he was totally aware and knew what was to happen. Jesus knew He would sit at the right hand of His father after is was all done in Victory just as He knew He would be made to suffer and die at the hands of the elders and chief priests and teachers of the law.

For those who want to know on what I base Christ's separation from the Lord on the Cross because of mankind's sin being poured out on Him. Better I point you to a teacher who has expounded this in a way I cannot. Here is an article on it by John MacArthur http://www.biblebb.c.../mac/sg2397.htm

Hope this gives you an insight of what is happening here to Jesus in these verses quoted by Dave Jones (quoted at the top of this post).

 

[dfj]

The Lamsa? 46 About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"--which means, My God, My God for this I was kept.

Excellent AG!

This was my point, however I was hoping that more would take the time to see that Jesus could NOT have said "why have you forsaken me".

 

[Selene]

I agree with Amazing Grace. Christ came to save mankind. That was His whole purpose. He knows that God did not forsake Him.

 

[Selene]

The Lamsa? 46 About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"--which means, My God, My God for this I was kept.

So how do you get Jesus doubting from this do you? {refering to your thread title} A bit thin to say we have bad versions of God's Word and therefore make Christ guilty of Unbelief.

I really can see from the fact you are into all these supposed better versions of the Bible you will probably not be interested in what I am about to say. So this is not for you Dave Jones. This is for the people who are following this thread who might have some interest.

Yes, I agree. I do not understand how Dave Jones could imply that we have a bad version of God's Word and claim that Christ is guilty of Unbelief. Perhaps, he did not understand the Lamsa version.

 

[tomwebster]

So dj, maybe you also thing God is lying here, "Heb 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee."

Would you really worship a God that would forsake His own Son when He tells us "He will never leave thee nor forsake thee?" I am sure glad I don't study Scripture with you! You believe anything you want, I will have no part of you.

 

[dfj]

Yes, I agree. I do not understand how Dave Jones could imply that we have a bad version of God's Word and claim that Christ is guilty of Unbelief. Perhaps, he did not understand the Lamsa version.

Selene, I am in agreement with Lamsa, that was my point in starting the thread.

My first question was, "...[font="Verdana][b][font="Verdana][color="#333333"] if most here believe that Jesus is God, how on earth can you live with the [/color]errant translation of Matt 27:46, Mark 15:34??"[/font][/b][/font]

"Heb 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee."

Exactly!

Would you really worship a God that would forsake His own Son when He tells us "He will never leave thee nor forsake thee?" I am sure glad I don't study Scripture with you! You believe anything you want, I will have no part of you.

Tom, you should really look at my first question so as not to misunderstand my intent.


Your statement, "Would you really worship a God that would forsake His own Son when He tells us "He will never leave thee nor forsake thee?" simply proves that what I was driving at. I could not live [font="Verdana][font="Verdana][color="#333333"]with "the errant translation of Matt 27:46, Mark 15:34??"[/font][/font][/color]
[font="Verdana][font="Verdana][color="#333333"]
[/font][/font][/color]
[font="Verdana][font="Verdana][color="#333333"]Read it sometime in the Aramaic Peshita, look at Lamsa, read it in the Hebrew text of Matthew.[/font][/font][/color]
[font="Verdana][font="Verdana] [/font][/font][/color]
[font="Verdana][color="#333333"]I am glad to see you really do agree with me, w[/font]ould you really worship a God that would forsake His own Son?

 

[Amazing Grace]

Excellent AG!

This was my point, however I was hoping that more would take the time to see that Jesus could NOT have said "why have you forsaken me".

I owe you an apology I mistook your intention. My bad.