Was Jesus sent to rule as the Messiah or was he sent to die for the sins of humanity?

[Eternally Grateful]

Revelation 19:10 - And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See you do it not: I am your fellowservant, and of your brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus IS the spirit of prophecy.

“We are talking about prophecy. not about faith.”

testimony.

is this not what prophecy is?

God said this will happen. when it does happen. it is a testimony of God (jesus)?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The purpose of prophecy i agree with you (if I understand you correctly) so that you will believe I am Him. And how God tells of things before they happen. So that when it happens you will know it is true which God said would happen …before it happens. Growing Faith in what God says? Exercising…teaching…growing …Trust in God?

Because it is false.

so for this to be true.

We must take prophecy literally. otherwise we can make prophecy say whatever we want (as many so called churches have) and have no means to determine what is true and what is not, would you not agree

 

[Taken]

Yes I see names have significance. For example:
Isaiah 62:4 It will no longer be said to you, “Forsaken,” Nor to your land will it any longer be said, “Desolate”; But you will be called, “My delight is in her,” And your land, “Married”; For the Lord delights in you, And to Him your land will be married.

I’ve thought about a new name too. But to me a new name is descriptive as you said “descriptive” where new Jerusalem is not named “new Jerusalem” but instead as you said “Jerusalem” the new being lowercase as descriptive. But to me the descriptive is necessary. Vital. For example “they sing a new song” …if it is only “they sing a song” what song?

So I don’t get the debate over is it “new Jerusalem” or just “Jerusalem utterly without sin.” I don’t know about you but the descriptive “new” helps.

My mom named me “Vickie” …Vickie Lynn. Not Victoria because she said “Victoria” sounds black. I don’t mean that ugly but how she decided my name in the time she grew up in. But Vickie lynn …to me sounds country. Don’t think I haven’t considered the name “Victory” as in Victory in Him. All I meant was that the passage seems to not be talking about my name but Jerusalem not being called forsaken or desolate but “the Lord delights in you”. Hence “new” just as important as the “old” descriptive of Testament and “new” descriptive of Testament. It is crazy what we dispute over. Now we are rambling on about the “new” in Jerusalem. Again, I do get there is significance in names in the bible. I do. I’m only asking who is being spoken to there? That is all. I agree with my husband here…seeing his point also of who is it passage spoken to and do I run out immediately shouting “I’m getting a new name?” Maybe … “I am not longer termed bound but made free” “I am no longer termed imprisoned but delivered out from captivity” “I am no longer termed hated despised and rejected, but loved of God” “I am no longer termed a cast away but received of God” “I am no longer termed unapproved but approved of Him” “I am no longer termed as one who fails; but as one who does not fail in Him” “I am no longer termed dead but made Alive unto God through Christ” “I am not longer old but the old has passed away and all things have become new in Christ” …all descriptive or do I misunderstand? But also could be called a new name. All as you mentioned can be said of those that belong to Christ; as yes the husband gives his wife (body) a new name. Or descriptive.

I didn’t dismiss the importance of “new”, just don’t think it is part of the NAME.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

testimony.

is this not what prophecy is?

God said this will happen. when it does happen. it is a testimony of God (jesus)?

so for this to be true.

We must take prophecy literally. otherwise we can make prophecy say whatever we want (as many so called churches have) and have no means to determine what is true and what is not, would you not agree

First it makes me think of “My sheep know My voice and no other voice will they follow” to me that says they won’t follow a voice that is false. Just thinking about that in relation to your question on false prophecy.

Second, you mentioned it has to literally come to pass for one to know it is true. This makes me think of His asking them how they had read concerning Him yet they do not know His time spoken of by the prophets. In not knowing they fulfilled the prophecy concerning Him that he would be rejected and murdered.

Yet, Paul also stands before them telling them “I am brought into question concerning the Resurrection of the dead.” And they accused Paul of claiming “He lives.” Their anger over “this fellow is telling people he is alive.” “It is no longer I who lives but Christ lives in me. The Life I now live, I live by Faith in Christ.” Paul asked them “why is this strange to you? Do you not also speak of and wait for the Resurrection?” What stands out to me is their saying it has not come to pass. But Paul is saying (paraphrasing what it means to me) “Hey guys let me tell you about what happened on the road to Damascus. He’s Alive.” This infuriated them …the point is you’re speaking of a lump sum of unless it literally happens there is no disputing it since it is literal. But they disputed it as not coming to pass. Why? You said unless it is literal people can make up all sorts of things. They did make up all sorts of things….even when literal. In fact…their literal interpretation blinded them from seeing “He is Alive.” They mocked “no, He is dead!”

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The purpose of prophecy i agree with you (if I understand you correctly) so that you will believe I am Him. And how God tells of things before they happen. So that when it happens you will know it is true which God said would happen …before it happens. Growing Faith in what God says? Exercising…teaching…growing …Trust in God?

Because it is false.

As I see it.

When the prophecy of the virgin birth was given. what did people think it meant before it actually happened?

I always wondered this..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

First it makes me think of “My sheep know My voice and no other voice will they follow” to me that says they won’t follow a voice that is false. Just thinking about that in relation to your question on false prophecy.

Second, you mentioned it has to literally come to pass for one to know it is true. This makes me think of His asking them how they had read concerning Him yet they do not know His time spoken of by the prophets. In not knowing they fulfilled the prophecy concerning Him that he would be rejected and murdered.

there is a reason for this. Paul called it the hidden mystery.

If you look. The messiah and the suffering servant were two different people as prophesied. because they have different characteristics..

Yet, Paul also stands before them telling them “I am brought into question concerning the Resurrection of the dead.” And they accused Paul of claiming “He lives.” Their anger over “this fellow is telling people he is alive.” “It is no longer I who lives but Christ lives in me. The Life I know live I live in Christ.” Paul asked them “why is this strange to you? Do you not also speak of and wait for the Resurrection?” What stands out to me is there saying it has not come to pass. But Paul saying (paraphrasing what it means to me) “Hey guys let me tell you about what happened on the road to Damascus. He’s Alive.” This infuriated them …the point is you’re speaking of a lump sum of unless it literally happens and there is no disputing it since it is literal. But they disputed it as not coming to pass. Why?

because they rejected him as messiah.. They looked for king messiah who would free them from their slavery and rule with them on earth.

They could not see he had to first come and pay the price of sin..

again, the hidden mystery Paul spoke of.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

As I see it.

When the prophecy of the virgin birth was given. what did people think it meant before it actually happened?

I always wondered this..

You tell me…the virgin conceiving and giving birth literally IS His telling us before it happens Spiritually

 

[VictoryinJesus]

You tell me…the virgin conceiving and giving birth literally IS His telling us before it happens Spiritually

Same as His being crucified literally tells us before …if they did this to Me what do you think they will do to you?

Or He tells us before in physical healings what will come to pass Spiritually. Every thing He did foretold of a promise Spiritually …His doing and saying what He saw the Father doing. God is Spirit.

 

[liafailrock]

When Jesus was with the Children of Israel, was he supposed to rule them or was he supposed to die for the sins of mankind?

Both. The latter at His first Coming and the former at His Second Coming. Jews only saw the former criteria for Messiah, thus Jesus was a total failure due to their concept of Messiah. But His coming the first time to die was to defeat Satan, pay the penalty of sin, and open up the way for men to receive the Spirit of God (i.e. the birth of the church) in which these are the called out ones chosen to rule and reign with Him later for the greater salvation of mankind. He also came the first time to proclaim the gospel of the Kingdom. In a sense, this is a partial salvation of mankind now, the rest later, to select those who would take those roles in the Kingdom to come to show the rest of the world - this theoretically is what Israel's "job" was supposed to be, but being under the law that gets into another side road of law vs grace of God in order to live out that law and being saved for good works. Also, with "children of Israel" I subscribe to two house doctrines and as such some of Israel now are the church (along with Gentiles and becoming "Gentile" nations) while the Jews chose to keep Torah. It will all come together one day with greater understanding by everyone.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You tell me…the virgin conceiving and giving birth literally IS His telling us before it happens Spiritually

But it happened literally not spiritually (a symbol)

matt 1 and Luke 2 show this.

It was not a symbol. It was a literal event..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Same as His being crucified literally tells us before …if they did this to Me what do you think they will do to you?

Or He tells us before in physical healings what will come to pass Spiritually. Every thing He did foretold of a promise Spiritually …His doing and saying what He saw the Father doing. God is Spirit.

If they did this to me, what do you think they will do to you is not a prophecy.

The prophet did not say Jesus will tell his people if they did this to me, what do you think they will do to you

The prophet said he will die for the sins of the people. And told us how he would die.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

But it happened literally not spiritually (a symbol)

matt 1 and Luke 2 show this.

It was not a symbol. It was a literal event..

i didn’t mean it didn’t happen literally. But it could also be God telling of something that will happen before it happens. 2 Corinthians 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

Same as the crucifixion. I’m not saying it didn’t happen literally. But we say “to pick up your cross and follow Him.” “Crucified with Christ” Is it Spiritual “to pick up your cross” or unless for us all to go pick up a wooden cross and get nailed to it? There is a man up town in our area and he does carry a wooden cross around all day. Holding it over his shoulder, sitting on the corner with it propped up over his shoulder.

When Jesus Christ gave sight to the blind, hearing to the deaf, made the dumb speak, raised the dead, healed the sick …set the captives free. did He not tell before in those what the Spirit of God will do? Even the man with a withered hand…Jesus told him to stretch forth his hand and that which was withered was restored whole just as the other. Does none of that “literal” tell of “I’ll tell you what will happen before it happens? A withered hand restored whole same as the other hand? No?

Even …He was asleep on the ship and there arose a great tempest and those with Him cried “do you not care that we perish?” And He awaken out of sleep and rebuked the wind, the storm calmed. “Even the sea and the winds obey Him!”

 

[VictoryinJesus]

If they did this to me, what do you think they will do to you is not a prophecy.

The prophet did not say Jesus will tell his people if they did this to me, what do you think they will do to you

The prophet said he will die for the sins of the people. And told us how he would die.

“If they did this to Me, what do you think they will do to you?” Luke 23:27-31 And there followed him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented him. [28] But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children. [29] For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck. [30] Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us. [31] For if they do these things in a green tree, what shall be done in the dry?

 

[quietthinker]

If we say it was mandatory for Jesus to die because God required it to forgive sins then we are dealing with a God who trades......and what sort of God is that? It then appears God is more like the gods men create; god's who want blood; god's after their own image; god's who can be manipulated with mens performance or bribes.

 

[Matthias]

When Jesus was with the Children of Israel, was he supposed to rule them or was he supposed to die for the sins of mankind?

Welcome to the forum.

“But he said to them, ‘I must preach the kingdom of God … for I was sent for this purpose.”

(Luke 4:43)

 

[Eternally Grateful]

“If they did this to Me, what do you think they will do to you?” Luke 23:27-31 And there followed him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented him. [28] But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children. [29] For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck. [30] Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us. [31] For if they do these things in a green tree, what shall be done in the dry?

again, I am not sure what this has to do with prophecy

He said jesus would be born of a virgin, he was
He said he would be called a nazarine, He was
He said he would be crucified, he was.


We are also told in the chapter we are discussing that these things will happen.

4 And they shall rebuild the old ruins,
They shall raise up the former desolations,
And they shall repair the ruined cities,
The desolations of many generations.
5 Strangers shall stand and feed your flocks,
And the sons of the foreigner
Shall be your plowmen and your vinedressers.
6 But you shall be named the priests of the Lord,
They shall call you the servants of our God.
You shall eat the riches of the Gentiles,
And in their glory you shall boast.
7 Instead of your shame you shall have double honor,
And instead of confusion they shall rejoice in their portion.
Therefore in their land they shall possess double;
Everlasting joy shall be theirs.

And I am saying, Just as the previous ones came true. these will come true also.

if they do not.. Then the purpose of God saying they will happen. and the affect on those who are living at that time period. will be meaningless.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

If we say it was mandatory for Jesus to die because God required it to forgive sins then we are dealing with a God who trades......and what sort of God is that? It then appears God is more like the gods men create; god's who want blood; god's after their own image; god's who can be manipulated with mens performance or bribes.

how is this?

The Gods men create demand sacrifice of babies, of virgins, They will nto sacrifice themselves.

The God of heaven sacrificed himself..

huge difference my friend

 

[VictoryinJesus]

And they shall rebuild the old ruins,

Ok. We see things differently so there is no use discussing it further. My only point is who is “they” in “they shall rebuild the old ruins”?

To me “they” is his disciples and Paul who spoke constantly that the NT is “edification” and “rebuilding” …and I also think we disagree over what “the ruins” are that are being build up through and by the edification of Christ.

And I think we disagree at who are “that they be trees of Righteousness” because (Imo) it moves on past the “pause” where He stopped off reading and on to “the comfort” “joy” “garment of praise” parts where it speaks of “trees of Righteousness planted of the Lord” and the “Fruits” those trees yield. Paul spoke continually on “that you bear fruit” it was his hope in the Lord that the Righteousness -Life (Christ)in them bears Fruit. If we say He stopped there and shut the book because it is future yet still …to me we miss or ignore the disciples and Paul saying they were indeed building up what had been ruined and wasted, those old waste places they were building up again through the power given of God for edification of His habitation. Think of Paul…the Faith which I once destroyed, and now preach. Which power came by the Holy Spirit sent and returned for edification and the work of building. (For Edification) of His body. Not for tearing down. But for rebuilding and raising up in Him the ruins. “You raised me up out of the dung heap””You drew me out of deep waters”

That is where I’m stuck …what do you say is ruined or wasted that is said to be built up, raised up again ANew in Him?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Ok. We see things differently so there is no use discussing it further. My only point is who is “they” in “they shall rebuild the old ruins”?

If you read OT prophets. and there are many of them

they is Israel.

Israel is the only ones that had their cities and sanctuaries destroyed because of their sin. and God promised, if they repent he will rebuild them

To me “they” is his disciples and Paul who spoke constantly that the NT is “edification” and “rebuilding” …and I also think we disagree over what “the ruins” are that are being build up through and by the edification of Christ.

again, That is not what the prophet said.. I could not prove that prophecy was fulfilled by using this as a spiritul interpretation.

plus the disciples did not rebuild anything, they built something new.. The church.

Again, Here is just a few prophecies concerning the restoration of Israel and the rebuilding of the ruins and cities which were destroyed because of her sin

Isaiah 61:4

And they shall rebuild the old ruins, They shall raise up the former desolations, And they shall repair the ruined cities, The desolations of many generations.

ez 36: 6 “Therefore prophesy concerning the land of Israel, and say to the mountains, the hills, the rivers, and the valleys, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Behold, I have spoken in My jealousy and My fury, because you have borne the shame of the nations.” 7 Therefore thus says the Lord God: “I have raised My hand in an oath that surely the nations that are around you shall bear their own shame. 8 But you, O mountains of Israel, you shall shoot forth your branches and yield your fruit to My people Israel, for they are about to come. 9 For indeed I am for you, and I will turn to you, and you shall be tilled and sown. 10 I will multiply men upon you, all the house of Israel, all of it; and the cities shall be inhabited and the ruins rebuilt. 11 I will multiply upon you man and beast; and they shall increase and [d]bear young; I will make you inhabited as in former times, and do better for you than at your beginnings. Then you shall know that I am the Lord. 12 Yes, I will cause men to walk on you, My people Israel; they shall take possession of you, and you shall be their inheritance; no more shall you bereave them of children.”

Amos 9:
“On that day I will raise up The tabernacle of David, which has fallen down, And epair its damages; I will raise up its ruins,
And rebuild it as in the days of old;
12 That they may possess the remnant of Edom,[k] And all the Gentiles who are called by My name,” Says the Lord who does this thing.
13 “Behold, the days are coming,” says the Lord, “When the plowman shall overtake the reaper, And the treader of grapes him who sows seed; The mountains shall drip with sweet wine, And all the hills shall flow with it.
14 I will bring back the captives of My people Israel; They shall build the waste cities and inhabit them; They shall plant vineyards and drink wine from them; They shall also make gardens and eat fruit from them. 15 I will plant them in their land, And no longer shall they be pulled up From the land I have given them,” Says the Lord your God.

Ezek 37: 21 “Then say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; 22 and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king over them all; they shall no longer be two nations, nor shall they ever be divided into two kingdoms again. 23 They shall not defile themselves anymore with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions; but I will deliver them from all their dwelling places in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. Then they shall be My people, and I will be their God.

And I think we disagree at who are “that they be trees of Righteousness” because (Imo) it moves on past the “pause” where He stopped off reading and on to “the comfort” “joy” “garment of praise” parts where it speaks of “trees of Righteousness planted of the Lord” and the “Fruits” those trees yield. Paul spoke continually on “that you bear fruit” it was his hope in the Lord that the Righteous -Life (Christ)in them bears Fruit. If we say He stopped there and shut the book because it is future yet still …to me we miss the disciples and Paul saying they were build up what had been ruined and wasted, those old waste places they were building up against through the power given of God for edification of His habitation. Which power came by the Holy Spirit sent and returned for edification and the work of building. (For Edification) of His body.

He stopped here

And the day of vengeance of our God.....

Everything in the prophecy after these words concern the day of vengeance.

When did that day, or hour, or time occur

That is where I’m stuck …what do you say is ruined or wasted that is said to be built up, raised up again ANew in Him?

God told Israel if they sinned against him, he would make their land and cities a waste land.

Lev 26:
27 ‘And after all this, if you do not obey Me, but walk contrary to Me,
28 then I also will walk contrary to you in fury;
and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins.
29 You shall eat the flesh of your sons, and you shall eat the flesh of your daughters.
30 I will destroy your high places, cut down your incense altars, and cast your carcasses on the lifeless forms of your idols;
and My soul shall abhor you.
31 I will lay your cities waste and bring your sanctuaries to desolation, and I will not smell the fragrance of your sweet aromas.
32 I will bring the land to desolation, and your enemies who dwell in it shall be astonished at it.
33 I will scatter you among the nations and draw out a sword after you;
your land shall be desolate and your cities waste.

This happened three times

1. When Assyria laid the northern kingdom to waste (2 kings 17)
2. Babylon (see daniel 1)
3. Rome - as we know in 70 AD.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

If you read OT prophets. and there are many of them

they is Israel.

Israel is the only ones that had their cities and sanctuaries destroyed because of their sin. and God promised, if they repent he will rebuild them

2 Corinthians 11:22
Are they Hebrews? so am I. Are they Israelites? so am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? so am I.