Was Paul Right About Women In Church?

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marksman

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I am sure Christian women are tired of posts like this and some Christian men have turned this into a legalistic type of teaching.

I have even heard some Christian women say that they have been told by certain Christian men that they cannot work in a job..... It is so saddening to hear....

I am never saddened to hear what the scripture teaches. I am saddened to hear what some people tell us what the scripture says and how so many do not study the scriptures but just pick out verses to promote their pet subject.

As we all know there is your side of the story, there is my side of the story and then there is the truth. The discernment of the Holy Spirit will show us what is the truth if we want to know what it is. Judging by some of the comments here, there are plenty who do not want to know the truth.
 

marksman

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Here's the thing: This teaching from Paul sure feels like elements from the Law of Moses. If that's True, what happened to "Freedom in Christ"? What happened to "there is no male nor female"?

Galatians 5:1 NIV - "It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery."

Galatians 3:28 NIV - "There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus."

How much is this different from Peter reverting back to the Law of Moses in Galatians chapter 2?

The first thing you have to do is stop putting the wrong interpretation on verses. Galations 3:28 has nothing at all to do with women teaching. It is about salvation for all which you would know if you bothered to read it.

And Galatians 5:1 is about circumcision. What that has got to do with women teaching is beyond my comprehension.
 

Pearl

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No I havern't but I have read about 50 other books on the subject and sat a the feet of scholars that are accredited by the Church so I know what I believe.
Accredited scholars like Augustine who was the 'great man of God' who decided to cancel out women's participation because they are not made in God's image - only men are.
 

Pearl

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And, there are many Christian women who agree with Complementarianism.
Not many true Christian women I don't think. Women who are brainwashed into thinking they inferior maybe.
 

Pearl

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That verse in Galatians is about salvation. It has nothing at all to do with women in leadership.
Women were always allowed to be in leadership in the early church so why have things changed? Because certain men didn't like it perhaps? I would not want to be part of a fellowship where women couldn't use the gifts of the Holy Spirit which has been poured on on sons and daughters alike. The fellowship I belong to encourages women to use their God given gifts - even preaching. And also encourages the men to do menial tasks like making the brews and cleaning the toilets. We are all made in God's image and the Holy Spirit is the same in all of us because Christ himself is the same in all of us. There is not a special male version of the life of Christ in us.
 

Pearl

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Sorry Pearl but that is not true. I have just spent two years studying the background to the New Testament Church and read numerous books on the subject and not one of them said women were teachers. And the only centralised control were the plurality of Elders in the church in a given town. There was no denominational headquarters giving out the orders.
You've been reading the wrong books. The book I'm reading says different.
 

Pearl

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That is your subjective view Pearl but it is not backed up by scripture. No one is saying that women are inferior to men. What has been said I don't know how many times is that God distributes gifts to everyone and he is the one who decides who does what. If you haven't got the gift of teaching with all the will in the world, you can't teach. You may think you can but you can't. And the verse you quoted has nothing at all to do with women teaching.

And if your God is not many men you are up queer street. If it is an outdated conception then the New Testament is outdated so what do we use to replace it?

I hope by now you can see all the problems you create when you say I will believe what I want to believe and the word of God can go to h**ll.
You're obviously one of those men who has subscribed to the belief that women can't preach or lead but I so glad that my Christian brothers in the fellowship I belong to don't see it the same way you do. I prefer to take my lead from them.
 

Pearl

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No I havern't but I have read about 50 other books on the subject and sat a the feet of scholars that are accredited by the Church so I know what I believe.

For the first hundred years they (women) were teachers, administrators, evangelists and prophets, but then the creeping tide of institutionalism pushed them from the centre to the periphery of church life, as the numerous house churches spread across the great cities were subjected to centralized control.
 

soul man

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In my church we are all equal under Christ the head and sometimes women preach and sometimes men make the brews. We believe this verse:
Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Pearl you have the patience of Job :)
 

CadyandZoe

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Yes, I answered a couple of his odd questions and then quickly realized what was going on. Regret responding. Going to ignore.

In support of women I am reminded of Paul's words earlier in chapter 11.

4 Every man who has something on his head while praying or prophesying disgraces his head. 5 But every woman who has her head uncovered while praying or prophesying disgraces her head, for she is one and the same as the woman whose head is shaved.

If women are not allowed to speak in church, why are they praying and prophesying? Obviously, they are praying and prophesying because they are allowed to speak in church. So yes, I agree. Such nonsense should be ignored.
 
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JohnDB

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Phoebe...the deaconess in the book of Romans. I don't think that she remained so silent.

Mary and Martha coming to mind here.

Women weren't Equal to men in the world at the time this was written... until they came to church. There ALL human souls were equal.

But that didn't mean that the women knew how to behave with the sudden equality either. Paul was asking for decorum and order in their meetings. He wasn't telling the women to be one step above property.
 
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Pearl

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Pearl you have the patience of Job :)
Many years ago this question came up in my own church which at the time was Anglican. As a new Christian I had no real opinion one way or the other. So I prayed about it. And God showed me that verse and I've held it to be the truth ever since and nothing has shown me different. There were always female lay readers who preached in my first church which was Anglican and now there are are women bishops as well as female clergy.

In the world women can be leaders of nations but the outdated stance against women is still obvious in some parts of the church.
 
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101G

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GINOLJC, to all.
Addressing the OP, First, the Apostle is not even addressing any woman in the Church. he is addressing wives at home.
1 Timothy 2:11 "Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection."1 Timothy 2:12 "But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence."1 Timothy 2:13 "For Adam was first formed, then Eve." 1 Timothy 2:14 "And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression."1 Timothy 2:15 "Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety."

and in this verse below, the apostle is not addressing any woman at all, but their husbands.
1 Corinthians 14:34 "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law."1 Corinthians 14:35 "And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church."1 Corinthians 14:36 "What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?"

here the word "woman" is
G1135 γυνή gune (ǰ ï-nee') n.
1. a woman.
2. (specially) a wife.
[probably from the base of G1096]
KJV: wife, woman
Root(s): G1096

so how do we know both scriptures are speaking of wives? because in 1 Timothy 2:15 "Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety." the only woman who suppose to be having childern/childbearing, is a married one.

and in 1 Corinthians 14:35 "And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." the only woman who have a husband is a married one. BINGO

but the bible is full of women preaches, and bishops, and yes... Pastors.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
 
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Grailhunter

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First off Augustine and Calvin were lunatics.
It is what it is and it was what it was.
Christianity was a new precedence in an old culture. It did not matter if it was Jewish or Roman.
During Christ's ministry the Jews were still practicing polygamy...and women were property. Women were not even allowed to speak to their husbands in public...and men were considered fools to listen to women. A Jewish prayer that still exist today..."Thank you God for not making me a woman." It is a matter of debate to what extent Jewish Christians...like James followed all this, even though he did not allow marriage for the "disciples"

It was not only a Jewish thing, it was cultural thing that Christianity found itself work against the current. It takes a lot to change an entire culture.
Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

What was normal, was not Christianity...lol
Jewish Christians would go to the temple and a lot followed the Mosaic Law the best they could.
Gentile Christians did not follow the Law or Jewish customs. For the Gentile Christians, building Christian church buildings would not have worked well. It would just be the obvious place for the Romans and Jewish Christians to harass them. So before they started hiding in catacombs and "out of town" at night to worship, house churches were popular. Services in house churches were run by women. Why? The center piece of these services was a whole meal...of which the bread and wine ritual was included. I am sure that the sermon was given by mostly men, but discussed by all.

As most know Paul's views on women changed as he went along...eventually he had female deacons and women served in his ministry and historically it was popular for married couples to serve together in the church. The official theology of Christianity was that women were equals in the eyes of the Lord, just had different roles, and there was a benevolent "chain of command" within a marriage.

The social and religious status of women in Christianity had its ups and downs. Women's rights?...for those that know history... society drug Christianity into the 20th century kicking and screaming! "Women should know their place!" That was the battle cry. You will see some echoing that here on the forum. There are denominations on this forum that have a negative attitude to women and believe they should not be participating on this forum. Shame on them! If the voice of women would have been included in Christian history it probably would have been a little less bloody and not as many male driven denominations.
 
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DNB

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I am made in God's image; because I'm a woman doesn't make me inferior to men. I believe the verse I quoted and in all my days as a Christian I haven't met many men who believe women can't take the same roles as men. It is an outdated conception and where it is enforced it is hindering the Holy Spirit and holding the church back.
But Pearl, outside of some scoundrels, no person with a little bit of reasoning considers such a mandate as hierarchy of inferiority, subjectivity or tyranny. Which is why it is often referred to as Complementarianism.

As much as a child should not try and usurp the position of their parents, as much as a civilian should not defy the authority of a policeman, or any government official, it is improper for a being who was created after another, and as a help to another, to have authority over the initial being. Show me one wise man, and I will easily show you 10 wiser women, no problem, and vice versa. Even children often outgrow, out-mature, or outsmart their parents, it does not mean that they should ever challenge their inherent authority.

This is a call for men to step up to the plate, not to dominate women or children. In my opinion, he is to give his life, not only for his wife, but in any context, for the women and children. Only an incompetent fool (yes, the irony), would think that this principle is an opportunity to oppress women, or consider them as inferior, only a derelict and incompetent fool would hold that position!
 
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DNB

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Not many true Christian women I don't think. Women who are brainwashed into thinking they inferior maybe.
John Macarthur's wife, for one. And quite a few others that i watched on YouTube. Not one of them considered this hierarchy as one of dominance and inferiority, nor do I. Men must play the role of protector and provider that God demands of him, not immature, incompetent fool who thinks that women are only there to serve him.
 

Grailhunter

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John Macarthur's wife, for one. And quite a few others that i watched on YouTube. Not one of them considered this hierarchy as one of dominance and inferiority, nor do I. Men must play the role of protector and provider that God demands of him, not immature, incompetent fool who thinks that women are only there to serve him.

John Macarthur is a Calvinist preacher following the teachings of the lunatic John Calvin.
Talking to a Calvinist about their religion is like nailing Jell-O to a wall. Things they do not want you to know. Double talk, circle talk, and talking out the side of their mouth...funny!
Blanket statement notwithstanding that there is a norm....the norm is that women in Calvinist churches are subservient. Let no one tell you any different. The "notwithstanding" part...Calvinist are infiltrators...for example Baptist churches that have been infiltrated by Calvinist will generally not agree with the misogyny of Calvinist.

Confirmation...type list of female Calvinist preachers in a search engine..=..0
 
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