Was Paul stating a church doctrine when he said that he did not permit a woman to teach in the churc
- Thread starter Vengle
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
I made no "rash generalizations". I commented on exactly what you said.
No, it didn't. I simply set the record straight. There is no room in the body for ignorance.
More than likely, that is a wise decision. "Theories" have a way of showing themselves unfounded and tend to be a great display of the prejudices of the theorist.
Yes. Since the parents were obviously absent during the critical development of their children..."These girls" should be pulled aside by at least 2 of the elder GODLY women of the church and confronted with Godly counsel on the appropriate behavior of a Christian woman. IF they are truly Christians, they will receive the instruction and change their ways. IF they are not then the body is better off without them.
This has been going on for "five years"? Great. Not only does the pastor not have control of his flock, he's clueless as well. What exactly DO you get out of this church?
I, personally, have never fully understood the "Sarah" example, in any form. It's one of those I simply take on faith. Having said that...
Through my studies, this is what I have discovered...There are generally 2 trains of thought when it comes to v6.
1. It was a question of infidelity...IOW...If you live well and are faithful to your husband, you will not live in fear of being found guilty of infidelity.
2. Overall behavior...You will be considered the "daughter of Sarah" as long as you do what it right and do not give into fear.
Agreed, I don't want to argue with you about each others words such quarrels are useless, of little value and only ruin those who listen. If i choose to confront one of them this will require surgical precision I will have to be very gentle.
That is the one that I have the hardest time with it seeming harsh to me but I think I know also that much of my difficulty with it is the deep regret that I have in me that I was not a better husband when I had the chance to be.
Darby's version using the phrase, "not fearing with any kind of consternation", seems awfully gruff to me. I have not looked in the dictionary to see the exact definition of that word "consternation", but my sense of that word tells me it means a bit more than just a passive taking of offense.
But like I say, I think I know that is my own past coming back to haunt me as I had turned and walked away from my wife out of resentment for something she was doing. I threw up my hands and just quit on her. And before I could work it out of me she had died. I carry a continual weeping in me because of that and how I would treasure being able to put up with her reasonable consternation again. But it is too late now.
And that intensifies at times when loneliness begins to get to me.
That's a tough burden to carry. It's a good thing we have an able God who is willing to carry our load for us.
It takes a big, and humble, man to confront his past mistakes, learn from them and move on. I pray God continues his healing process in your broken heart.
Are you a member of the church? An elder? Hold a position of authority?
From the information you have given...It is not YOUR place to "confront one of them"...with or without "surgical precision". This issue should be taken to a person in authority at the church and that person should prayerfully turn the issue over to one of the elder women in the church to prayerfully counsel these women. This can easily destroy the faith of a young woman and most assuredly is NOT an issue that should be addressed by a male.
That's a tough burden to carry. It's a good thing we have an able God who is willing to carry our load for us.
It takes a big, and humble, man to confront his past mistakes, learn from them and move on. I pray God continues his healing process in your broken heart.
It heightens my appreciation of Paul's words, Galatians 5:15 "But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another."
I see that I did not take that seriously enough. It can happen much more easily than we might know and in such subtle ways. Then we are left with the memory that we cared selfishly for our own self on a carnal plane, more than we cared that we are the same body and we thus acted as a cancer instead of as a friend in the greater body, failing to cherish it as we ought to.
And it begins so simply with our permitting ourselves to take offense. We actually go about tearing our own house down while feeling justified in the moment to do so. How insane that is!
Galatians 5:13 ¶For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
James 1:19-20 "Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath: For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God."
Wrath in us causes us to cease seeing that we are the one and the same body. It causes us to begin acting with separateness. And it births shame to us by means of our own actions.
Pauls words were likely the result of some headstrong women in the Thyatira congregation who was likened to 'Jezebel' by the Apostle John in Revelation
Revelation 2:18 “And to the angel of the congregation in Thy‧a‧ti′ra write: These are the things that the Son of God says, he who has his eyes like a fiery flame, and his feet are like fine copper, 19 ‘I know your deeds, and your love and faith and ministry and endurance, and that your deeds of late are more than those formerly.
20 “‘Nevertheless, I do hold [this] against you, that you tolerate that woman Jez′e‧bel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and misleads my slaves to commit fornication and to eat things sacrificed to idols. 21 And I gave her time to repent, but she is not willing to repent of her fornication. 22 Look! I am about to throw her into a sickbed, and those committing adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of her deeds. 23 And her children I will kill with deadly plague, so that all the congregations will know that I am he who searches the kidneys and hearts, and I will give to YOU individually according to YOUR deeds.
24 “‘However, I say to the rest of YOU who are in Thy‧a‧ti′ra, all those who do not have this teaching, the very ones who did not get to know the “deep things of Satan,” as they say: I am not putting upon YOU any other burden. 25 Just the same, hold fast what YOU have until I come
Those are strong words for whoever that woman was....and my guess is that the apostles had been unanimous in deciding that women shouldnt have authority over the men of the congregation as a way to suppress these women who were promoting wrong teachings to the congregation.
In any case, we know that God has always assigned men in the lead role when it comes to leading his congregation...so Pauls words are in harmony with the ways of God and we should respect that. Women were created to 'support' men in their role as the family head....it would be entirely inappropriate for the women to take his God assigned position and that is the way i view it so i appreciate Pauls words because they promote Gods standards which are perfect.
Revelation 2:18 “And to the angel of the congregation in Thy‧a‧ti′ra write: These are the things that the Son of God says, he who has his eyes like a fiery flame, and his feet are like fine copper, 19 ‘I know your deeds, and your love and faith and ministry and endurance, and that your deeds of late are more than those formerly.
20 “‘Nevertheless, I do hold [this] against you, that you tolerate that woman Jez′e‧bel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and misleads my slaves to commit fornication and to eat things sacrificed to idols. 21 And I gave her time to repent, but she is not willing to repent of her fornication. 22 Look! I am about to throw her into a sickbed, and those committing adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of her deeds. 23 And her children I will kill with deadly plague, so that all the congregations will know that I am he who searches the kidneys and hearts, and I will give to YOU individually according to YOUR deeds.
24 “‘However, I say to the rest of YOU who are in Thy‧a‧ti′ra, all those who do not have this teaching, the very ones who did not get to know the “deep things of Satan,” as they say: I am not putting upon YOU any other burden. 25 Just the same, hold fast what YOU have until I come
Those are strong words for whoever that woman was....and my guess is that the apostles had been unanimous in deciding that women shouldnt have authority over the men of the congregation as a way to suppress these women who were promoting wrong teachings to the congregation.
In any case, we know that God has always assigned men in the lead role when it comes to leading his congregation...so Pauls words are in harmony with the ways of God and we should respect that. Women were created to 'support' men in their role as the family head....it would be entirely inappropriate for the women to take his God assigned position and that is the way i view it so i appreciate Pauls words because they promote Gods standards which are perfect.
Amen, Pegg,
It matters not what we think,(any of us), but what God sets for us to do.
Did God set down a standard that completely disallows a woman from speaking to the congregation or can that woman serve at times in certain situations as the mouthpiece of her head by permission of her head? Could this be typified in how the woman Jerusalem is shown to be the mouthpiece which speaks the word on behalf of her husband, on behalf of God?
It matters not what we think,(any of us), but what God sets for us to do.
Did God set down a standard that completely disallows a woman from speaking to the congregation or can that woman serve at times in certain situations as the mouthpiece of her head by permission of her head? Could this be typified in how the woman Jerusalem is shown to be the mouthpiece which speaks the word on behalf of her husband, on behalf of God?
in the early congregations, there were prominent women who were spoken of as 'holy women' and as those who were 'striving side by side' in the ministry of God... Romans 16:1-2 I recommend to YOU Phoe′be our sister, who is a minister of the congregation that is in Cen′chre‧ae, 2 that YOU may welcome her in [the] Lord in a way worthy of the holy ones, and that YOU may assist her in any matter where she may need YOU, for she herself also proved to be a defender of many, yes, of me myself.
there are numerous women mentioned by name for the deeds of faith and the work they did for the Lord and for the congregation of God... so its not like women weren't active servants of God, they certainly were...there are even books written about them such as the book of Ester and Ruth in the Hebrew scriptures.
And in the first century women were privileged to minister to Jesus. (Luke 8:1-3) Women were among those to whom Jesus appeared after his resurrection. (Matthew 28:1-10; John 20:1-18) and both men and women were among those who experienced the fulfillment of Joel 2:28, 29 for there were female prophets in the christian congregation.
so i think its pretty clear that Pauls words really are about 'authority' and the 'leadership' roles in the congregations.
Amen, it is pretty clear.
I think that what happens to us as we try to understand the finer details of Paul's words is that we sometimes due to our own lack of understanding begin trying to compare apples to oranges.
I would be the first to accuse myself of having and yet having a tendency to be guilty of that. Not caring that I am right of my own glory I care only that I ascertain what is right to God in His eyes. I must if I am to be able and find His truth.
yep, thats exactly what happens.
if we read a verse such as 'a women must remain silent, i do not permit a woman to teach', we shouldnt draw any conclusions until we understand the context of the passage and we should always weigh it up with other scriptures to seek clarification.
there is always a reasonable conclusion to be had...God is not an extremist
A very fervent Amen to that, Pegg!!!
"God is not an extremist."
There is always a reasonable conclusion to be had.
Sorry, I've got to come to the aid of you sisters in Christ out there.
Firstly, I very much believe in God's order for the family He setup in the beginning (1 Tim.2). Not for my own self, but for the sake of the family unit. At the same time, Paul and Peter commanded us men to love our wives as we do Christ and His Church, and I admit I've not always been the best in that relationship with my wife. I'm not perfect and neither is she.
HOWEVER...
When one reads what Paul said in 1 Cor.14:33-38 more closely, and in context, he said a lot more there which many miss...
1 Cor 14:33-38
33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
Right at the end of that 35th verse is where MOST men just stop reading. "Ah, there it is wife. You're not supposed to speak in Church, so remember that!" No, there's more to what Paul said with that, for he continues...
36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?
Apostle Paul is speaking to men here. He then says TO MEN this idea, 'What??? Did the word of God come out from YOU MEN? or did it come UNTO YOU MEN ONLY???
Paul's previous statements are simply repeating an idea from Old Covenant tradition of women keeping silence in the congregation.
37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
(KJV)
Not only should women keep silent in the Church when they have nothing to say that edifies the Church, but nor should men who have nothing to say also. And men can equally be some of the greatest gossipers during Church service as women can.
But the other matter Paul covers is that God's Word did NOT just go to men only (remember Anna, Priscilla, even the time when God called Deborah to be judge over Israel because all the men were scared and weak). That means a woman should be able to teach The Gospel Message too. But I believe they should not as in an office that would usurp the positions of a man which Christ set over His Church, like the Jezebel example of Revelation 2.
Firstly, I very much believe in God's order for the family He setup in the beginning (1 Tim.2). Not for my own self, but for the sake of the family unit. At the same time, Paul and Peter commanded us men to love our wives as we do Christ and His Church, and I admit I've not always been the best in that relationship with my wife. I'm not perfect and neither is she.
HOWEVER...
When one reads what Paul said in 1 Cor.14:33-38 more closely, and in context, he said a lot more there which many miss...
1 Cor 14:33-38
33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
Right at the end of that 35th verse is where MOST men just stop reading. "Ah, there it is wife. You're not supposed to speak in Church, so remember that!" No, there's more to what Paul said with that, for he continues...
36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?
Apostle Paul is speaking to men here. He then says TO MEN this idea, 'What??? Did the word of God come out from YOU MEN? or did it come UNTO YOU MEN ONLY???
Paul's previous statements are simply repeating an idea from Old Covenant tradition of women keeping silence in the congregation.
37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
(KJV)
Not only should women keep silent in the Church when they have nothing to say that edifies the Church, but nor should men who have nothing to say also. And men can equally be some of the greatest gossipers during Church service as women can.
But the other matter Paul covers is that God's Word did NOT just go to men only (remember Anna, Priscilla, even the time when God called Deborah to be judge over Israel because all the men were scared and weak). That means a woman should be able to teach The Gospel Message too. But I believe they should not as in an office that would usurp the positions of a man which Christ set over His Church, like the Jezebel example of Revelation 2.
I must admit, this is a perspective I had not considered. Which brings us to the truth in the following verse...
Let all things be done decently and in order. (v. 40)
Thanks Veteran for giving me another perspective to consider.
I suspect that Paul was trying to direct the growing church here. Realising that women often got sidetracked on feminine matters he tried to bring order back to the serious business at hand which was Jesus Christ. In those days barbarism and the Romans were the serious issues and discussing children and family matters was overpowering the faith.
Spiritually, women are the same as men and need to follow Jesus in the accurate way Jesus taught us all...over and above Paul. They too want everlasting life and it is only achievable if we follow Jesus accurately....man or woman.
Amen to that. I don't see Paul as requiring anything that was not necessary in the very least situational wise for the sake of love.
If you notice he puts great emphasis on not using the gospel and ministry of Christ in a way that unnecessarily stumbles others, and especially unbelievers as that is an important reason why Christ has his army of ministers.
I appreciate God's word in the mouth of the minister and I don't care if that minister just happens to be male or female. Joyce Myers is one of my favorites. I just love that woman and it is shear joy to listen to her. And i do not have to agree with her on every shred of doctrine. I do not even think in terms of challenging her finite beliefs when I listen to her. I find to much gold in the things that she says to dare to fret what may be to my critiquing imperfection. She, because she is a woman, can offer perspective that many men cannot. And she can reach people that most men cannot.
I love that woman and I do not believe there is a thing wrong with it. :)
_______________________________________
After posting everything above the line here I went and watched the following for the first time.
http://www.joycemeyer.org/BroadcastHome.aspx?video=I_Think_I_am_Right,_But_I_Could_Be_Wrong_%E2%80%93_Pt_2
That is beautiful !!!
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Mary was the first Christian. The woman at the tomb were the first evangelists. Jesus treated women as equals in a world that treated them like property. The church needs to caught up to Jesus on this issue.
Catholics like to use the excuse of "church tradition" to justify support of many of their Catholic beliefs.
Funny, because was not what Paul said a "church tradition?"
I guess people get to pick and choose which tradition is right or wrong....
Funny, because was not what Paul said a "church tradition?"
I guess people get to pick and choose which tradition is right or wrong....
Similar threads
