Was Peter ever in Rome? What saith the Scriptures?

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Axehead

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aspen2 said:
If you haven't read the entire Catholic catechism Episk - your critique of RCC doctrine is uneducated.
Aspen, that is not really true. I was born into a Catholic family, too. An altar boy who learned Latin because the Mass was said in Latin when I was young. I attended Catholic schools, too.

There are only a few things someone needs to know to determine if they should 1) stay in the RCC or 2) join it.

But most importantly, they just need to be born of the Spirit. Then they will know the true voice of the Shepherd.

John 1:12-13
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
 

Selene

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It's ironic that when I cite Strong's biblical translation from the King James Bible of the word "Babylon" how everyone else decide to post negative things about the RCC rather than sticking to the issue that I had just posted. Suddenly, people are posting about their past experiences of being Catholic, which has absolutely nothing to do with the word "Babylon".
 
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Axehead

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What is Strong's Biblical Translation from the KJV?

If you are not following the posts, we are responding to Aspen. Where does the KJV say Rome is Babylon?

You are right about this. It is still the case
Selene:
3) allegorically, of Rome as the most corrupt seat of idolatry and the enemy of Christianity
Why didn't Paul refer to Rome as Babylon?


John Gill
1Pe 5:13 The church that is at Babylon,.... The Vulgate Latin, Syriac, and Arabic versions, supply the word "church", as we do. Some, by "Babylon", understand Rome, which is so called, in a figurative sense, in the book of the Revelations: this is an ancient opinion; so Papias understood it, as (e) Eusebius relates; but that Peter was at Rome, when he wrote this epistle, cannot be proved, nor any reason be given why the proper name of the place should be concealed, and a figurative one expressed. It is best therefore to understand it literally, of Babylon in Assyria, the metropolis of the dispersion of the Jews, and the centre of it, to whom the apostle wrote; and where, as the minister of the circumcision, he may be thought to reside, here being a number of persons converted and formed into a Gospel church state, whereby was fulfilled the prophecy in Psa_87:4 perhaps this church might consist chiefly of Jews, which might be the reason of the apostle's being here, since there were great numbers which continued here, from the time of the captivity, who returned not with Ezra; and these are said by the Jews (f) to be of the purest blood: many of the Jewish doctors lived here; they had three famous universities in this country, and here their Talmud was written, called from hence (g) Babylonian.\

Matthew Henry
He closes with salutations and a solemn benediction. Observe, 1. Peter, being at Babylon in Assyria, when he wrote this epistle (whither he travelled, as the apostle of the circumcision, to visit that church, which was the chief of the dispersion), sends the salutation of that church to the other churches to whom he wrote (1Pe_5:13), telling them that God had elected or chosen the Christians at Babylon out of the world, to be his church, and to partake of eternal salvation through Christ Jesus, together with them and all other faithful Christians, 1Pe_1:2.

Adam Clarke
1Pe 5:13
The Church that is at Babylon - After considering all that has been said by learned men and critics on this place, I am quite of opinion that the apostle does not mean Babylon in Egypt, nor Jerusalem, nor Rome as figurative Babylon, but the ancient celebrated Babylon in Assyria, which was, as Dr. Benson observes, the metropolis of the eastern dispersion of the Jews; but as I have said so much on this subject in the preface, I beg leave to refer the reader to that place.
 

Selene

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Axehead said:
What is Strong's Biblical Translation from the KJV?

If you are not following the posts, we are responding to Aspen. Where does the KJV say Rome is Babylon?

You are right about this. It is still the case

Why didn't Paul refer to Rome as Babylon?

Because Paul was a Roman citizen (See Acts 22:24-27). The Apostles Peter and John who used the name "Babylon" were NOT Roman citizens.
 

mjrhealth

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Rev 2:4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
Rev 2:6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.

This post started off well but as usual ended in a pooh fight. In fact it really does not matter. Men will twist the bible and scripture any way they choose as long as it suit them, and that is OK, God had given us the right to choose, some choose God other choose religion. The only way I can put it is,

" And I will have no other God before me", be it religion , the bible, church, mens doctrines, I have no place for it. Many have left there first love, and time is far to short to bicker and argue. Most christains will not be ready, they will not come out and go to Christ so he can prepare them, and when Christ is at His wedding Feast, many will be outside crying " why " we went to church, we read the bible, we did all teh religious things. so why are we not invited.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Simply they will not make Christ there number one, they will not go to Him so He can wash them clean, so he can fill there lamps, so He can give them Life.

Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Joh 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

yes they omit the second part , the going to Him, and so this part does not happen,

Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

The fruit they bare is shown all over these forums, and again because the choose not Christ they miss out on the better things.

1Jn_2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

No one will be able to stand before Jesus and say they didnt know,one cannot serve two masters, it is Jesus or the rest, If one prefers the pope and his servants to Jesus, than that is there choice, it stands for every other denomination they are all counted as one false church,there is those who belong to Jesus and those who choose the world, the wheat and the tares.

Where will you be when Jesus comes, ready and waiting for Him. or in church worshiping the unknown God.

In all His Love
 

Episkopos

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aspen2 said:
If you haven't read the entire Catholic catechism Episk - your critique of RCC doctrine is uneducated.

We are not talking about doctrine but about PRACTICE...do as they say NOT as they do.
 

Axehead

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Episkopos said:
5. Catholic writers universally say that "Babylon" of I Peter 5:13 is Rome (which it isn't), and then generally deny that "Babylon" of Revelation 17:5 is Rome (which it is).

There is nothing so close to the look of the original as it's exact opposite. Like a negative of a picture. The church system is diametrically opposed to the teachings of Christ...exactly the opposite and not just a major deviation..
That is a great point, Episkopos. I had never thought of it that way.

Selene said:
Because Paul was a Roman citizen (See Acts 22:24-27). The Apostles Peter and John who used the name "Babylon" were NOT Roman citizens.
That does not make any sense. Peter was supposedly in Rome for 25 years but none of the Church's history as chronicled in the NT refer to him being in Rome. Even secular historian Josephus does not document that Peter was in Rome. Was Peter afraid that he would be imprisoned like Paul (a Roman citizen) so that is why he went around speaking in code? You are insulting the intelligence of the people in this thread. But, most of your "traditions" do that anyway. We have become use to it.
 

Selene

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Axehead said:
That is a great point, Episkopos. I had never thought of it that way.


That does not make any sense. Peter was supposedly in Rome for 25 years but none of the Church's history as chronicled in the NT refer to him being in Rome. Even secular historian Josephus does not document that Peter was in Rome. Was Peter afraid that he would be imprisoned like Paul (a Roman citizen) so that is why he went around speaking in code? You are insulting the intelligence of the people in this thread. But, most of your "traditions" do that anyway. We have become use to it.
First of all, Episkospos is incorrect. Catholics never said that Babylon is referred to as Rome ONLY in 1 Peter 5:13. I am a Catholic and nowhere under this thread have I ever said that Babylon refers to Rome ONLY in 1 Peter 5:13. Babylon is also Rome in Revelations. WHERE is the evidence showing that Catholics say that Babylon is Rome ONLY in 1 Peter 5:13, but not in Revelations?? The Church at Babylon are the Roman Christians. The whore of Babylon is the Roman government. If John wanted to refer to the Roman Christians, he would also have said the "Church in Babylon."

There is a lot of things not recorded in the Bible. Where in the Bible did it say that the Apostle Thomas went to India?? It doesn't say that, but there are historical documents showing that Thomas reached India. And the Syro-Malabar Church in India traced their lineage to the Apostle Thomas. The Church in Rome can trace their lineage to the Apostle Peter just as the Syro-Malabar Church in India can trace their lineage to the Apostle Thomas. However, the Bible at least show that Peter's last letter was written in Rome (Babylon).
 

Axehead

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Selene said:
First of all, Episkospos is incorrect. Catholics never said that Babylon is referred to as Rome ONLY in 1 Peter 5:13. I am a Catholic and nowhere under this thread have I ever said that Babylon refers to Rome ONLY in 1 Peter 5:13. Babylon is also Rome in Revelations. WHERE is the evidence showing that Catholics say that Babylon is Rome ONLY in 1 Peter 5:13, but not in Revelations?? The Church at Babylon are the Roman Christians. The whore of Babylon is the Roman government. If John wanted to refer to the Roman Christians, he would also have said the "Church in Babylon."

There is a lot of things not recorded in the Bible. Where in the Bible did it say that the Apostle Thomas went to India?? It doesn't say that, but there are historical documents showing that Thomas reached India. And the Syro-Malabar Church in India traced their lineage to the Apostle Thomas. The Church in Rome can trace their lineage to the Apostle Peter just as the Syro-Malabar Church in India can trace their lineage to the Apostle Thomas. However, the Bible at least show that Peter's last letter was written in Rome (Babylon).
Selene,

Dragonfly got it right in post #333 (love that number) when she said:


Posted 05 April 2013 - 08:24 PM

Hi Selene,
The word 'Babylon' refers to corrupt religious systems which include every kind of idolatry and abomination to God - but not worship of Him exclusively.
Yes, Babylon is the false religious system that prostitutes herself with every nation on earth. You could call it the "Counterfeit church", which has a counterfeit "head", and counterfeit "sacrifice" and counterfeit "mediator", and,,,,well you get the idea.

Satan has counterfeited every gifting and expression of God.
 

Selene

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Axehead said:
Selene,

Dragonfly got it right in post #333 (love that number) when she said:



Yes, Babylon is the false religious system that prostitutes herself with every nation on earth. You could call it the "Counterfeit church", which has a counterfeit "head", and counterfeit "sacrifice" and counterfeit "mediator", and,,,,well you get the idea.

Satan has counterfeited every gifting and expression of God.

And at that time, when John wrote those words, it was the pagan Roman empire.....and John even gave a clue that it was Rome.

Revelations 17:9 "This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits.

Rome is the only country that has seven hills. This is why both Catholic AND Protestant scholars agree that Babylon is Rome.
 

mjrhealth

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And who is that woman...

Rev 17:1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:
Rev 17:2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.
Rev 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
Rev 17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
Rev 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

The very church that sits right there.

In All His Love
 

Axehead

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mjrhealth said:
And who is that woman...

Rev 17:1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:
Rev 17:2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.
Rev 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
Rev 17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
Rev 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

The very church that sits right there.

In All His Love
Hopefully, Selene can begin to connect the dots, mjr.
 

Selene

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mjrhealth said:
And who is that woman...

Rev 17:1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:
Rev 17:2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.
Rev 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
Rev 17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
Rev 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

The very church that sits right there.

In All His Love
That would be the emperor Nero, the ruler of Rome, and the government of Rome. Nero was the one who murdered thousands of Christians in the arenas of Rome. Nero was a pagan. He was not a Christian.

The Roman Christians at that time were not even in power, and they were in hiding. The Bible even tells you what happened to Nero and the Roman government. According to Revelations:

Revelations 18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

Behold.....Babylon the great is fallen. History tells you that the Roman Empire already fell thousands of years ago. If it was the Roman Church that fell, it would not have existed today. Therefore, it was the Roman Empire.....NOT the Roman Catholic Church. The Roman Christians survived the fall of the Roman Empire and continued on to this day!
 

Axehead

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Selene said:
That would be the emperor Nero, the ruler of Rome, and the government of Rome. Nero was the one who murdered thousands of Christians in the arenas of Rome. Nero was a pagan. He was not a Christian.

The Roman Christians at that time were not even in power, and they were in hiding. The Bible even tells you what happened to Nero and the Roman government. According to Revelations:

Revelations 18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

Behold.....Babylon the great is fallen. History tells you that the Roman Empire already fell thousands of years ago. If it was the Roman Church that fell, it would not have existed today. Therefore, it was the Roman Empire.....NOT the Roman Catholic Church. The Roman Christians survived the fall of the Roman Empire and continued on to this day!
Selene, do you really not know what you are a part of or are you a knowing enabler?


A Bloody Past
1096 Roman Catholic crusaders slaughter half the Jews in Worms, Germany.

1098 Roman Catholic crusaders slaughter almost all of the inhabitants of the city of Antioch.

1099 Roman Catholic crusaders massacre 70,000 Muslims and Jews when they capture Jerusalem.

1208 – 1226 The Albigensian Crusades in southern France. Roman Catholic crusaders slaughter approximately 20,000 citizens of Beziers, France, on July 22, 1209. Albigensian Christians and Catholics were slain. By the time the Roman Catholic armies finished their “crusade,” almost the entire population of southern France (mostly Albigensian Christians) has been exterminated. During the six centuries of papal Inquisition that began in the 13th century, up to 50 million people were killed. Read what J. A. Wylie's The History of Protestantism has to say about the Crusades against the Abigenses

1236 Roman Catholic crusaders slaughter Jews in the Anjou and Poitou regions of western France. The Catholic crusaders trample to death under their horses 3000 Jews who refuse baptism.

1243 Roman Catholic mobs burn alive all the Jews in Berlitz, Germany (near Berlin).

1298 Roman Catholic mobs burn alive all Jews in Rottingen, Germany.

April 26, 1349 Roman Catholic mobs burn to death all Jews in Germersheim, Germany.

1348 – 1349 The Jews are blamed for the bubonic plague. Author Dave Hunt tells us, “Accused of causing the ‘Black Death’ Jews were rounded up [by Roman Catholic mobs] and hanged, burned, and drowned by the thousands in revenge.”

1389 Roman Catholic mobs murder 3000 Jews in Prague when they refuse to be baptized.

1481 – 1483 At the direction of the Roman Catholic inquisitors, authorities burn at the stake at least 2000 people during the first two years of the Spanish Inquisition.

1540 – 1570 Roman Catholic armies butcher at least 900,000 Waldensian Christians of all ages during this 30-year period.

1550 – 1560 Roman Catholic troops slaughter at least 250,000 Dutch Protestants via torture, hanging, and burning during this ten-year period.

1553 – 1558 Roman Catholic Queen Mary I of England (aka “bloody Mary”) attempts to bring England back under the yoke of papal tyranny. During her reign, approximately 200 men and woman are burned to death at the sake. Her victims include bishops, scholars, and other Protestant leaders.


St Bartholemew Massacre
Enlarge picture

1572 St. Bartholomew’s Day Massacre. French Roman Catholic soldiers begin killing Protestants in Paris on the night of August 24, 1572. The soldiers kill at least 10,000 Protestants during the first three days. At least 8000 more Protestants are killed as the slaughter spreads to the countryside.

1618 – 1648 The Thirty Years’ War. This bloody, religious war is planned, instigated, and orchestrated by the Roman Catholic Jesuit order and its agents in an attempt to exterminate all the Protestants in Europe. Many countries in central Europe lose up to half their population.

1641 – 1649 Eight years of Jesuit-instigated Roman Catholic butchery of Irish Protestants claims the lives of at least 100,000 Protestants.

1685 French Roman Catholic soldiers slaughter approximately 500,000 French Protestant Huguenots on the orders of Roman Catholic King Louis 14 of France.

Circa 1938 – 1945 Catholic dictators such as Adolf Hitler and Monsignor Tiso slaughter approximately six million Jews in Europe prior to and during World War 2.

1941 – 1945 The Roman Catholic Ustashi in the fascist state of Croatia butcher up to one million Serbian Orthodox Christians. Roman Catholic killer squads are often led by Franciscan priests, monks, and friars. This genocide is choreographed by two Jesuit prelates: Aloysius Stepinac and Ivan Saric.

No doubt Protestants have blood on their hands, too. I don't defend any denomination. Come out of Babylon, the false religious system that is dripping with blood and avenging itself rather than leaving vengeance to God.
The "children of the flesh will always persecute the children of the Spirit".
 

Selene

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And so the same thing happens AGAIN. I stick to the topic at hand, which is Babylon....because it has to do with the OP. And what does Brother Axehead do?? He goes back to what the RCC did HUNDREDS OF YEARS AGO. All I've been discussing is what the word "Babylon" means in Scripture....and what happens after that?? My Church gets attacked for something that the Pope already apologized for? Do you see me attacking Protestant denominations??
 

mjrhealth

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It is not an attack it is the truth , it is all about babylon, but you dont want the truth and God has not forgiven.

Rev 18:18 and cried out as they looked upon the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like the great city?
Rev 18:19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and mourning, saying, Woe, woe, the great city, wherein were made rich all that had their ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.
Rev 18:20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye saints, and ye apostles, and ye prophets; for God hath judged your judgment on her.
Rev 18:21 And a strong angel took up a stone as it were a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with a mighty fall shall Babylon, the great city, be cast down, and shall be found no more at all.

ANd you want to be a part of that.

In All His Love
 

Axehead

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mjrhealth said:
It is not an attack it is the truth , it is all about babylon, but you dont want the truth and God has not forgiven.

Rev 18:18 and cried out as they looked upon the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like the great city?
Rev 18:19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and mourning, saying, Woe, woe, the great city, wherein were made rich all that had their ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.
Rev 18:20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye saints, and ye apostles, and ye prophets; for God hath judged your judgment on her.
Rev 18:21 And a strong angel took up a stone as it were a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with a mighty fall shall Babylon, the great city, be cast down, and shall be found no more at all.

ANd you want to be a part of that.

In All His Love
MJR is exactly right, Selene. We all need to see the truth about our precious "idols", whether Protestant or Catholic and understand that it is all part of religious Babylon. Jesus commands us to "come out of her", MY PEOPLE. Of course only "HIS PEOPLE" will understand and respond because the Holy Spirit within them cannot stay in that which is not of Him.

We do the same with Protestants, Selene. No favoritism, just the truth. "Are we now your enemies for telling you the truth?"

Axehead
 

Selene

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Axehead said:
MJR is exactly right, Selene. We all need to see the truth about our precious "idols", whether Protestant or Catholic and understand that it is all part of religious Babylon. Jesus commands us to "come out of her", MY PEOPLE. Of course only "HIS PEOPLE" will understand and respond because the Holy Spirit within them cannot stay in that which is not of Him.

We do the same with Protestants, Selene. No favoritism, just the truth. "Are we now your enemies for telling you the truth?"

Axehead
Excuse me......were you not the one who said that "Babylon" was NOT Rome. Now, suddenly, you are saying that it is Rome. But more than that....you are actually accusing the Roman Catholic Church to be the whore of Babylon?? Did you forget what the Apostle Peter wrote in his letter? He said that the Church at Babylon salutes you. Did you honestly think that Peter was speaking of the Roman Empire as the Church at Babylon??
 

mjrhealth

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See Selene, I know it is pointless writing this for you, you have your heart set on your religion and nothing we say will change that. No, this if for the very few who desire the truth, and can look back at what is written take it before God and ask Him, who will search these things out, for they desire nothing but the truth, and are willing to accept they are wrong for only God is right.

Mat 6:21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

Very few have there hearts on Jesus.

Mat 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

Just read all these forums, where is Jesus ever mentioned, even the bible itself takes pre eminence over Jesus yet no one can see how wrong that is. Yes you have shown your heart to the world as all christians do, revealed what is the most important even willing to overlook all the lies to be a part of it. The heart of a man is a strange beast and satan knows how to manipulate it.

In all His love


As Paul put it, and I cant think of better words.


1Co 2:1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
1Co 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

Nothing else matters.

In All His Love
 

dragonfly

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Hi Selene,

It is difficult to believe that you really believe your last post.

Excuse me......were you not the one who said that "Babylon" was NOT Rome. Now, suddenly, you are saying that it is Rome. But more than that....you are actually accusing the Roman Catholic Church to be the whore of Babylon?? Did you forget what the Apostle Peter wrote in his letter? He said that the Church at Babylon salutes you. Did you honestly think that Peter was speaking of the Roman Empire as the Church at Babylon??
Obviously, Peter wrote of a real church at the city of Babylon. That is not in doubt.

But when Jesus referred to coming out of Babylon, in His instructions to the apostle John, He was speaking of the true saints of God having to choose between staying in religious systems which merchandised as one with the world, and coming out of those systems according to His call.

And yes, the Catholic Church SYSTEM is one version of the multi-faceted Babylon in Revelation, in the earth today. Every little church and business it swallows up, the fewer will be left outside which are not compromised by their association with its practices.