Was Peter thr Rock that the Church was built upon?

[EAHARA]

The Church of Philadelphia has those keys now, not the Catholic Church, or your Pope or the "33,000 different denominations."

I don't find that in the scriptures.

Peter is the covenant head of the earthly Church. That position cannot be given to a parish. It is handed down from generation to generation as we see in Acts 1 with the election of Barnabas to take place of Judas.

 

[Nomad]

Let's play the game a little here. The rock is Peter's confession.

Is Peter the head of the Church?

No. The Apostles and Prophets are the foundation of the Church, but no "head" from among them was ever appointed. The "head" of the Church is Christ and no other, (Eph. 2:20).

Acts 15:13-20 and Galatians 2:11 for example, should put such a notion to rest.

 

[jerryjohnson]

I don't find that in the scriptures.

Peter is the covenant head of the earthly Church. That position cannot be given to a parish. It is handed down from generation to generation as we see in Acts 1 with the election of Barnabas to take place of Judas.

Well, maybe you should read Revelation. You may follow whatever traditions you want, I don't care what you do or don't do, or what you think or don't think. Someday you will know and will pray for rocks to fall on you.

 

[EAHARA]

No. The Apostles and Prophets are the foundation of the Church, but no "head" from among them was ever appointed. The "head" of the Church is Christ and no other, (Eph. 2:20).

Acts 15:13-20 and Galatians 2:11 for example, should put such a notion to rest.

Yes, Christ is the Head of the Church overall, but in His absence from the earth, the Church on earth must have a head for leadership. How can a physical body operate without a head?

There is also a covenant principle at work here. Every covenant structure is made up of a covenant head, covenant helpmeet, and those under that authority. Adam was the covenant head, Eve the covenant helpmeet, and their offspring are those under their authority.

In Heaven, Christ is the covenant Head, the Theotokos is His helpmeet, and believers in Heaven are under their authority.

The structure is the same for the Church. There must be a covenant head, a covenant helpmeet, and those under that authority. The Holy Father is the covenant head for the earthly body, the Church is the helpmeet, and the members of the Church are those who are under their authority.

This is the trinitarian structure that all covenant structures follow.

Furthermore, do you honestly think that Christ would have a Christianity with thousands of independent "heads" who each think they are the final word on what is doctrinally and morally right? How is such chaos of God? No, there must be one head so that there is a final place of authority and judgment regarding such matters.

Well, maybe you should read Revelation. You may follow whatever traditions you want, I don't care what you do or don't do, or what you think or don't think. Someday you will know and will pray for rocks to fall on you.

I did read Revelation and I didn't see anything which said that the keys were given to the church at Philadelphia.

I always love threats from people who think that they are the final arbiters of my eternal destiny.

 

[Christina]

Everyone can argue this til the cows come home but the truth is THERE IS NO RELIGIOUS DENOMINATIONS IN GODS WORD NONE
All denominations catholic included are manufactured by men for men ...
We have one rock it is Jesus Christ he is the cornerstone of our faith not our denominations ....
Christianity is a way of life following in footsteps of Jesus not Peter ...not any denomination
He gave all mankind the key to salvation JESUS CHRIST IS HIS NAME
not any certain denomination ..

God could care less what name is written over your church building
ONLY THE PRIDE OF MEN CARE ABOUT THIS NOT GOD
he cares only whats in your heart and mind ..
He could care less if you follow a Pope or a minister
He wants you to follow him arguing over which group does that right is the argument of men not God

God says where two or more gather in my name you are in church
he didn't say and then write a denominational name over it so I know you are doing it right ....

He hates our traditions our denominations all of them equally they are all perverted doctrines
mixed with a few right ones catholics and protestants arguing over which is less perverted is folly of men
he wants one thing most our love plain and simple you don't need a denomination to do that

 

[EAHARA]

I'm sorry, Christina, but you are wrong. We see from the very beginning that God has established His Kingdom on earth. It was first given to the Jews to take care of, but they lost it through their disobedience and killing of the Messiah.

The Kingdom of God is known as the Church. The word means "congregation" or "gathering". Let me show you from a Protestant source why this is so important:

It is really very simple. Biblical hierarchy is a series of courts with delegated authorities over each level. The procedure is from the bottom up. Since the Biblical system of authority is placed immediately after the transcendence section, it is the way in which God makes His transcendence known on earth. In the ancient suzerain covenants, a hierarchical and historical section (historical prologue) would always follow the preamble, what I have called the transcendence segment. The suzerain identified himself as Lord and then he proved it by setting up his authority in history. To be precise, he made the newly conquered vassal a visible authority, one who represented him. This idea of “visible sovereignty” was copied from the archetype of all sovereignty, God. The Biblical covenant has the same pattern. This progression of thought in Deuteronomy is very important. There is a movement from the declaration of transcendence to the temporal demonstration of transcendence, from the verbal to the visual, and from heaven to earth. This progression is the same all through the Bible. It is God’s way.

Ray Sutton THAT YOU MAY PROSPER PG 43

There is no escape from the principle of man’s God-given mediatory authority. If God’s authorities do not rule, neither does He, in the sense of a public manifestation of authority. He manifests visible sovereignty through the visible authority of those who are in visible covenant to Him. The Christian always affirms that God rules over His creation. God (them) rules (kratos). We live in a theocracy. The entire universe is a theocracy. Every human institution is a theocracy – Church, State, Family, business, etc. There is no escape from theocracy. But Christians in every aspect of their daily lives are supposed to. make manifest His rule in every institution (and not just the State) This is why God is interested in having earthly authority.

Ray Sutton THAT YOU MAY PROSPER PG 45

You see, having a visible authority on earth establishes God's authority as transcendent over all. This is why the Protestant Rebellion was straight from the pit of hell -- it defied that authority which God had established on earth for 1500 years -- the Church.

Where is the authority on earth in Protestantism? There are thousands and thousands of mini-popes each claiming to be the voice of God and claiming to speak for Him. Jimmy Swaggart, who disagrees with John MacArthur, who disagrees with Billy Graham, who disagrees with....well, the list could go on for miles. How do you establish God's authority when you don't even know where it resides??

And please don't say "the Bible". You know better than that. The Bible has to be interpreted. This is part of the work of the Church in establishing Truth on earth, in speaking for God so that mankind has a voice to follow and knowledge of the Truth. Protestantism has at least a dozen understandings of baptism. Which is correct? How do you know and how are you sure? At least a dozen understandings of salvation. Again, which is correct. How do you know?

We know what the Church teaches. The teachings are clearly there in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. All mankind is expected to obey these teachings. Why? Because Christ set the Church on earth as the "pillar and ground of Truth" (1 Tim. 3:15).

 

[Christina]

No you are wrong brain washed I notice you have to present men's words to make your case
it all bull as is your denomination baloney

LET ME REMIND ALL YOU DENOMINATION ARGURES OF GODS WORD TO YOU ALL

Amos 8:10And I will turn your feasts into mourning, and all your songs into lamentation; and I will bring up sackcloth upon all loins, and baldness upon every head; and I will make it as the mourning of an only son, and the end thereof as a bitter day.

11Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:

12And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it.

Now of course the catholic will argue how do we know its from God as they are not allowed to study the entire Bible as Gods Word ...but only their selected doctrines. Men Got keep them from the truth
The protestants will argue that's not to us .....we will be gone Rapture away some where to never never land Men gotta make up and easy escape

Well sorry all just more of your men traditions and denominational misconceptions

God says all his Word is inspired by him through his Holy spirit so if you deny any of it you are already
on the wrong track
and because his Word is all 100% true it never mentions any one be Rapture anywhere ..Only a gathering to him as he descends here to earth at the 7th trump his second coming

So all your arguments are pointless all baseless and dont give me your mens arguments I been studying far to long to taken in by your men and denominational babble

It will be exactly how God says in his verses above... why is there a famine for his true Word men waste their time arguing over stupid men's denominations

God doesnt exempt Catholic or protestant from this famine in his Words
So everyone better pay heed to your Fathers Word because we are running out of time and if you are depending on your denomitaional name to save you ...Your in for rude awaking

 

[EAHARA]

No you are wrong brain washed I notice you have to present men's words to make your case
it all bull as is your denomination baloney

LET ME REMIND ALL YOU DENOMINATION ARGURES OF GODS WORD TO YOU ALL

Amos 8:10And I will turn your feasts into mourning, and all your songs into lamentation; and I will bring up sackcloth upon all loins, and baldness upon every head; and I will make it as the mourning of an only son, and the end thereof as a bitter day.

11Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:

12And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it.

Now of course the catholic will argue how do we know its from God as they are not allowed to study the entire Bible as Gods Word ...but only their selected doctrines. Men Got keep them from the truth
The protestants will argue that's not to us .....we will be gone Rapture away some where to never never land Men gotta make up and easy escape

Well sorry all just more of your men traditions and denominational misconceptions

God says all his Word is inspired by him through his Holy spirit so if you deny any of it you are already
on the wrong track
and because his Word is all 100% true it never mentions any one be Rapture anywhere ..Only a gathering to him as he descends here to earth at the 7th trump his second coming

So all your arguments are pointless all baseless and dont give me your mens arguments I been studying far to long to taken in by your men and denominational babble

It will be exactly how God says in his verses above... why is there a famine for his true Word men waste their time arguing over stupid men's denominations

God doesnt exempt Catholic or protestant from this famine in his Words
So everyone better pay heed to your Fathers Word because we are running out of time and if you are depending on your denomitaional name to save you ...Your in for rude awaking

Wow. You are a really angry person. I've noticed this in your posts. Guess I'll steer clear of trying to have a nice discussion with you.

 

[Christina]

Wow. You are a really angry person. I've noticed this in your posts. Guess I'll steer clear of trying to have a nice discussion with you.

LOL Your 100% wrong I'm not angry at all in fact I'm a very nice person who loves my Christian brothers and sisters
I just don't have much patience for this prideful men trash ..it has nothing to do with the body of Christ we are all Christians
Not catholics or Protestants I deal in facts not men's baloney of ones up man's ship I have it right.. no I do ..Only God has it right lets listen to him.

 

[Nomad]

Yes, Christ is the Head of the Church overall, but in His absence from the earth, the Church on earth must have a head for leadership.

Once again you dodge my arguments and send out a red herring. No matter. Even if you could prove that such a leader was appointed, Acts 15:13-20 and Galatians 2:11 clearly demonstrate that Peter wasn't that one.

 

[kestrel]

This could be one of my last posts on this forum. If something, I only feel a fool of having fallen into this trap again. Let me share this for the time being. Please, do spare me the affirmations of kindness when at the same time you are using a language as harsh as you could find among bitter rivals. Rather, hate me if you might.

 

[EAHARA]

LOL Your 100% wrong I'm not angry at all in fact I'm a very nice person who loves my Christian brothers and sisters
I just don't have much patience for this prideful men trash ..it has nothing to do with the body of Christ we are all Christians
Not catholics or Protestants I deal in facts not men's baloney of ones up man's ship I have it right.. no I do ..Only God has it right lets listen to him.

If you are not angry, then don't present yourself as such, okay? If you wish to discuss the Bible, then in this day and age you should be ready for those who disagree with you. The few posts I have read of yours seem like you just go ballistic when someone dares to hold an opinion or interpretation other than yours.

 

[EAHARA]

Once again you dodge my arguments and send out a red herring. No matter. Even if you could prove that such a leader was appointed, Acts 15:13-20 and Galatians 2:11 clearly demonstrate that Peter wasn't that one.

Your arguments are pretty much the same stuff that all Protestants use in their attempt to establish themselves as their own popes and to listen to no one but themselves. This is why people church hop. They keep looking and looking until they either find a church that preaches 100% what they believe, or they give up and then begin to worship in a "home church" and twist the Bible to justify that.

It is the same with Protestant pastors. I can remember more than one pastor I sat under who spent a sermon railing against "organized religion" and telling us "no one tells me what to preach" and etc.

That is not the humble and submissive attitude of a holy person. That is a rebellious spirit, pure and simple. It is the same rebellion that got the devil kicked out of Heaven and got us in all this trouble through Adam. Humble submission to God through His authority is a godly thing.

Go back and re-read my post with the Ray Sutton quote. Sutton is a Protestant, by the way, yet his point is valid (if not very ironic). Visible authority on earth is how God manifests his authority. To rebel against that authority is therefore to rebel against God.

Jesus made a public demonstration of giving the keys to the kingdom to one Apostle and one only -- Peter. Keys are symbolic of power. He who has the keys runs the castle. When Jesus gave the keys to Peter, He did so as the Master Who was going away on a journey to a far country and would return. He placed the safekeeping of His Kingdom into the hands of Peter and all those who would be his successors.

Some took the job very seriously and were godly and holy men. A rare few were scoundrels who lusted after the office only for the power and glory. But the office is the power, not the man. The office is the authority, and it is the office which the Holy Spirit protects from teaching theological and moral error. This is why, when all the Protestant assemblies in the world are caving to sodomite "marriage", abortion rights, and other heinous sins, the Catholic Church refuses to budge.

It has been this way through history.

The scriptures cannot contradict themselves. Your position contradicts the covenant structure of a kingdom, therefore, one or the other has to be wrong. Since the covenant is mentioned over 280 times in scripture, I will believe in and promote the covenant structure which God has placed in scripture before I will believe in your twisting of the Greek to try to prove that your rebellion and that of the Protestants is justified.

 

[EAHARA]

One other thing to remember:

Hebrews 8:5 Hebrews 9: 23 & Hebrews 9:24 state that the worship and structure of the Church (qahal or eclessia, depending upon whether you are reading the Hebrew or Greek) is to be a shadow and a type of the true Church in Heaven.

Now....if you Protestants can show me that in Heaven there is not one single Head over the Church with final say and all authority, but instead thousands and thousands of "heads" who have no unity, who argue with each other, who calumniate and slander each other over doctrine, and who don't even agree upon what is Truth, then I will return to Protestantism.

The shadow and type the Catholic Church gives of Heaven is of one leader, just as in Heaven we have but one Head.

 

[Nomad]

The shadow and type the Catholic Church gives of Heaven is of one leader, just as in Heaven we have but one Head.

Which Catholic Church Eddie? East or West? The East doesn't recognize the papacy and the West doesn't recognize your patriarchate. Why don't you quit being a rebel and head back to Rome so you can follow Peter's successors? I find your blantant double standard in this regard to be quite hypocritical. Scripture shows Peter to be "a" leader in the Church, not the appointed "head." So far you continue to dodge the evidence presented.

 

[EAHARA]

Which Catholic Church Eddie? East or West? The East doesn't recognize the papacy and the West doesn't recognize your patriarchate. Why don't you quit being a rebel and head back to Rome so you can follow Peter's successors? I find your blantant double standard in this regard to be quite hypocritical. Scripture shows Peter to be "a" leader in the Church, not the appointed "head." So far you continue to dodge the evidence presented.

The Eastern Catholic Church consists of Holy Orthodoxy in full communion with the head of the Church. We are not in schism and we pray for the day that the rest of Orthodoxy will end this lamentable schism so that we can begin to heal the Church and see Her be one again.

I gave you evidence which you are not addressing regarding the texts from Hebrews and also the covenant structure. I have not received an answer or refutation from you other than a single verse which you are hanging on to.

 

[Christina]

If you are not angry, then don't present yourself as such, okay? If you wish to discuss the Bible, then in this day and age you should be ready for those who disagree with you. The few posts I have read of yours seem like you just go ballistic when someone dares to hold an opinion or interpretation other than yours.

Well now that is the point you arent discussing the bible you discussing your religion traditions this is a non denominatiuonal site for a reason ..that means we discuss the Bible not my religion is better than your religion ... Well I dont know your defention of ballistic :lol: but I do take Gods word serious ...I dont take this argument of which of mens traditions is better very serious.

 

[Nomad]

The Eastern Catholic Church consists of Holy Orthodoxy in full communion with the head of the Church. We are not in schism and we pray for the day that the rest of Orthodoxy will end this lamentable schism so that we can begin to heal the Church and see Her be one again.

Eastern Orthodoxy is in full communion with the head of the Church? Who would that be? Don't tell me Peter. Scripture disagrees. Rome disagrees for different reasons, but disagrees nonetheless. You let me know when East and West reconcile and then your posts on this matter will cease to be hypocritical. Until then, you're in the same boat as the rest of us.

 

[kestrel]

Eastern Orthodoxy is in full communion with the head of the Church? Who would that be?

Ehem, one of the things I learned in Romania is that Eastern Christianity is a complex movement, some of their groups being in communion with Rome. :|

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Catholic_Churches

..that means we discuss the Bible not my religion is better than your religion

I am under the impression that this is indeed a major matter of arguments around here.

 

[Nomad]

One other thing to remember:

Hebrews 8:5 Hebrews 9: 23 & Hebrews 9:24 state that the worship and structure of the Church (qahal or eclessia, depending upon whether you are reading the Hebrew or Greek) is to be a shadow and a type of the true Church in Heaven.

Your Scripture references are not only irrelevant to this discussion, they have nothing whatsoever to do with your assertion. The passages in question have to do with the way in which the Levitical sacrificial system is a pattern or type of things in Heaven, not the Church. What you have engaged in here is a shameful example of pure eisegesis.

Heb 8:5 They serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things. For when Moses was about to erect the tent, he was instructed by God, saying, "See that you make everything according to the pattern that was shown you on the mountain." Heb 9:23 Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Heb 9:24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.