Was Peter thr Rock that the Church was built upon?

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shnarkle

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I have addressed the point by quoting Protestant scholars.
And not one of them deals with this grammatical issue. This is elementary grammar. All you have to do is find one that addresses the grammatical problem. JUST ONE. Find one that will tell you that a feminine article and noun CAN refer to a masculine noun or name. Find one that can supply you with an explanation as to why the author didn't need to write "this rock" in the masculine so it would agree exactly as if it were written in the Aramaic. This shouldn't be difficult for such a simple question. Again, you can have your doctrinal assertions. I won't deny any of them. I may even agree that Peter is the head of the church, but what no one has done is to supply any grammatical evidence to support this ridiculous assertion.

If the first verse of scripture stated: "In the beginning Satan created the heavens and the earth...etc." The entire rest of scripture couldn't change what that first verse states. We could come to the conclusion that someone may have changed the first verse, or made a mistake; a scribal error. This is what I've had presented to me in the past, and it is by far the best reason I've ever heard. All the scholars and theologians in the world can't change the elementary rules of Greek grammar to fit their theology. Keep your theology as it is, but you don't need this verse for Peter to remain ensconced in his throne of authority. To go through the entirety of scripture to attempt to prove that it can somehow alter or nullify Greek grammar is laughable, not to mention insulting; you might as well suggest that these doctrines can change your bible into bread, or Greek into Hebrew.

I see this all the time. My favorite example is "you must be born of water and spirit....etc." which many seem to think is a reference to water baptism. Anyone who disagrees with this is supplied with an exhaustive list of all the verses in scripture to support the need or purpose of water baptism as if denial of this meaning for this passage necessarily denies the need or purpose of water baptism; it doesn't. It just simply isn't a reference to water baptism. The same is true for "this rock", but theology seems to trump the laws of language and grammar for some people. Since that won't fly on any test at any level of education in any reputable school of learning, you'll just have to come up with something more creative, or dare I say; deceptive?

Ask any of your Catholic or Protestant theologians or scholars if they would pass or fail a student who pointed out that 'this rock' cannot grammatically refer to Peter. If they say that this isn't necessarily the case, then they need to come up with a grammatical reason why this isn't necessarily the case. It really doesn't get any simpler than that.
 

epostle1

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You have been refuted in post #120 (my last post, it's easy to find) and haven't dealt with any of it. You ran from my list of Protestant scholars in post #108. You dismissed 70+ verses showing Kepha's primacy in post #113, which you claim you do not deny, thus contradicting yourself. Your "patristics professor" allegedly said it was a scribal error, which is another way of saying "grammatical problem". Does this patristics professor deny the consensus of the Church Fathers? If that's the case, your so called professor should be fired. Or you made it up.

You haven't answered the painfully simple question in post #118.

It's interesting to note the the new and innovative Protestant interpretation of Matt. 16:18 was nowhere to be found before the Protestant revolt. Why? Because all the church leaders, saints and theologians for 1500 years were too stupid?

I am not the one that denies the original Aramaic, but you have to, because it refutes your polemical assertions. You still haven't dealt with the fact that Jesus and Paul used the Aramaic name "Kepha", that has no gender complications. But you avoid that because it doesn't fit your theology. You just rant on about Greek, Greek, Greek.
"petra" doesn't change what Jesus meant, which is why you are unable to answer the simple question in post #118. The use of "petra" has been explained repeatedly, and then you pretend it hasn't been addressed.

"you must be born of water and spirit" Where in scripture is "spirit" symbolic? (I forgot, you don't answer questions)

Among Protestants there are five camps regarding baptism. They just can’t figure out the truth of this matter.
Luther (as well as some “high” Anglicans and Methodists) held to (infant) baptismal regeneration,
Calvin to symbolic infant baptism.
Then there is the position of Baptists and some others: adult “believers” symbolic baptism.
Yet others believe in adult baptismal regeneration (e.g., Disciples of Christ and Church[es] of Christ).
A fifth position is denying the necessity of baptism altogether (even though it is clearly a command in the New Testament). This is held by Quakers and The Salvation Army.

You fall under the Quaker / Salvation Army category, or you create a 6th position, your private opinion. So much for perpescuity of scripture.



10570240_1466071716995986_318242870_n_1.jpg
 

epostle1

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OFFICE OF POPE IN THE BIBLE

Isa. 22: 19 I will thrust you from your office, and you will be pulled down from your station.
Shebna is described as having an "office" and a "station." An office, in order for it to be an office, has successors. In order for an earthly kingdom to last, a succession of representatives is required.
This was the case in the Old Covenant kingdom, and it is the case in the New Covenant kingdom which fulfills the Old Covenant. Jesus our King is in heaven, but He has appointed a chief steward over His household with a plan for a succession of representatives.
Isa.22:20 In that day I will call my servant Eli'akim the son of Hilki'ah,
Isa. 22:20 - in the old Davidic kingdom, Eliakim succeeds Shebna as the chief steward of the household of God. The kingdom employs a mechanism of dynastic succession. King David was dead for centuries, but his kingdom is preserved through a succession of representatives.

Isa.22:21 and I will clothe him with your robe, and will bind your girdle on him, and will commit your authority to his hand; and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and to the house of Judah.

Isa. 22:21 - Eliakim is called “father” or “papa” of God's people. The word Pope used by Catholics to describe the chief steward of the earthly kingdom simply means papa or father in Italian. This is why Catholics call the leader of the Church "Pope." The Pope is the father of God's people, the chief steward of the earthly kingdom and Christ's representative on earth.

Isa.22:22 And I will place on his shoulder the key of the house of David; he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.

Isa. 22:22 - we see that the keys of the kingdom pass from Shebna to Eliakim. Thus, the keys are used not only as a symbol of authority, but also to facilitate succession. The keys of Christ's kingdom have passed from Peter to Linus all the way to our current Pope with an unbroken lineage for almost 2,000 years.

23: And I will fasten him like a peg in a sure place, and he will become a throne of honor to his father's house.

Rev. 1:18; 3:7; 9:1; 20:1 - Jesus' "keys" undeniably represent authority. By using the word "keys," Jesus gives Peter authority on earth over the new Davidic kingdom, and this was not seriously questioned by anyone until the Protestant reformation 1,500 years later after Peter’s investiture.

Revelation 3:7 "And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: `The words of the holy one, the true one, who has the key of David, who opens and no one shall shut, who shuts and no one opens.

Matthew 16:19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Matt. 16:19 - whatever Peter binds or looses on earth is bound or loosed in heaven / when the Prime Minister to the King opens, no one shuts. This "binding and loosing" authority allows the keeper of the keys to establish "halakah," or rules of conduct for the members of the kingdom he serves.

Jer. 33:17 For thus saith the Lord: There shall not be cut off from David a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel.

Jeremiah prophesies that David shall never lack a man to sit on the throne of the earthly House of Israel. Either this is a false prophecy, or David has a successor of representatives throughout history.

Dan. 2:44 But in the days of those kingdoms the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, and his kingdom shall not be delivered up to another people, and it shall break in pieces, and shall consume all these kingdoms, and itself shall stand for ever.

Daniel prophesies an earthly kingdom that will never be destroyed. Either this is a false prophecy, or the earthly kingdom requires succession.
 

FHII

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Yea Kepha... But it really wasn't an unbroken lineage, was it? I can go to the Catholic Encyclopedia and see that.

I won't debate whether Peter laid hands on Linus. It is possible he did, though improbable as Linus was Paul's student... Not Peter's. I have no doubt that Peter appeared in Rome.... Just that he was ever there long enough to gain prominence.

But laying that aside, there are gaps in this so called laying on of hands. Furthermore, Paul proclaimed that wolves would enter and already were present.

There were Popes that fit that discription. No?

Popes are elected by men. Not God. I really have no problem with that other than claiming they are elected by God. Men elected Mattiad. God elected Paul. Nothing against Mattias, but God wanted Paul.

And as for Peter... You can line up all the protestant scholars you want. Peter still isn't an "it". The rock was the revelation Peter brought, not him.

Whatsoever Peter bound on earth would be bound in heaven? Well he certainly didn't bind anything when God revealed the sheets with unclean food, did he? He tried to tell God differently!

No. It was his revelation. Not him.

I have nothing against the office of the Pope other than the false doctrine. But to claim it is a direct descent from Peter is not historially accurate nor is it Biblically accurate.
 

epostle1

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FHII said:
Yea Kepha... But it really wasn't an unbroken lineage, was it? I can go to the Catholic Encyclopedia and see that.
The legitimacy of one holding the Chair of Peter also includes the acceptance of the whole Church, as well as succeeding a legitimate pope. That rules out gaps and anti-popes, so you are left with mere opinion. Cite the broken lineage in the Catholic Encyclopedia without re-defining apostolic succession. (which is another topic)
I won't debate whether Peter laid hands on Linus. It is possible he did, though improbable as Linus was Paul's student... Not Peter's. I have no doubt that Peter appeared in Rome.... Just that he was ever there long enough to gain prominence.
Do you think that because the consensus of the Early Church Fathers are not scripture, they are meaningless? We would not have a Bible at all if it were not for them. Peter had prominence from Jesus, it didn't matter where he went. Peter had prominence all over the NT, you just ignore it.

But laying that aside, there are gaps in this so called laying on of hands. Furthermore, Paul proclaimed that wolves would enter and already were present.
There was no way to become a bishop without the laying on of hands by an Apostle or bishop. The real wolves, that you haven't named, were Montanus, Arius, Nestorius,the Sabellianists, Pelagius, all sola scripturist heretics. The Church had to hold councils to fix the mess they made and that is how the Trinity was clarified.

The Divinity or Godhood of Christ was only finalized in 325 at the Council of Nicaea, and the full doctrine of the Trinity in 381 at the Council of Constantinople. The dogma of the Two Natures of Christ (God and Man) was proclaimed in 451 at the Council of Chalcedon. These decisions of General Councils of the Church were in response to challenging heresies. Why should Protestants accept these authoritative verdicts, but reject similar proclamations on Church government?

It was "wolves"that discerned the canon of scripture? That anti-Catholic garbage you have been reading will rot your mind.
There were Popes that fit that discription. No?
About 3% over a 2000 year period, not as many as you have been told. Of course Satan has attacked the papacy (internally) but he has not prevailed because Jesus promised that would never happen. To say otherwise is to call Jesus a liar. The first 40 popes were killed by pagan Romans, so how does that fit your description?

Funny how the Romans knew there were popes but not 16th century Protestants.

Maybe I should post the shocking moral deficiencies of the reformers.

Popes are elected by men. Not God. I really have no problem with that other than claiming they are elected by God. Men elected Mattiad. God elected Paul. Nothing against Mattias, but God wanted Paul.
Paul was always subject to the institutional Church, to claim he was independent always fails as unbiblical.
"Men" pray to hear the Holy Spirit to elect the right pope.

And as for Peter... You can line up all the protestant scholars you want. Peter still isn't an "it". The rock was the revelation Peter brought, not him.
Just answer the question in post #118.

Whatsoever Peter bound on earth would be bound in heaven? Well he certainly didn't bind anything when God revealed the sheets with unclean food, did he? He tried to tell God differently!
Binding and loosing is a rabbinical term. Matt. 16:19 - whatever Peter binds or looses on earth is bound or loosed in heaven / when the Prime Minister to the King opens, no one shuts. This "binding and loosing" authority allows the keeper of the keys to establish "halakah," or rules of conduct for the members of the kingdom he serves.

Any Jewish encyclopedia will give a parallel definition.

Matt. 23:2-4 - the "binding and loosing" terminology used by Jesus was understood by the Jewish people. For example, Jesus said that the Pharisees "bind" heavy burdens but won't move ("loose") them with their fingers. Peter and the apostles have the new binding and loosing authority over the Church of the New Covenant. Jesus did not give this authority to each individual believer.

Matt. 16:19 - for Jesus to give Peter and the apostles, mere human beings, the authority to bind in heaven what they bound on earth requires infallibility. This is a gift of the Holy Spirit and has nothing to do with the holiness of the person receiving the gift.

Matt. 16:19; 18:18 - Jesus gave the apostles binding and loosing authority. But this authority requires a visible Church because "binding and loosing" are visible acts. The Church cannot be invisible, or it cannot bind and loose.

“There is no doubt, and in fact it has been known in all ages, that the holy and most blessed Peter, prince and head of the Apostles, pillar of faith, and foundation of the Catholic Church, received the keys of the kingdom from our Lord Jesus Christ, the Savior and Redeemer of the human race, and that to him was given the power of loosing and binding sins: who down even to to-day and forever, lives and judges in his successors. The holy and most blessed Pope Celestine, according to due order, is his successor and holds his place...”
Philip, Council of Ephesus, Session III (A.D. 431).

No. It was his revelation. Not him.
Just answer the question in post #118. The purpose of the Protestant revolt was to undermine the authority of the Church, using one half of one verse, stretching a grammatical problem (that was not an issue before) out of prejudice. Nowhere in the Bible is the Bible pitted against the Church, you do it because it is a man made Protestant tradition.

I have nothing against the office of the Pope other than the false doctrine. But to claim it is a direct descent from Peter is not historially accurate nor is it Biblically accurate.


It is historically accurate, and biblically accurate. You have to play games with history to force fit into your Protestant paradigms, which is why you probably don't accept the Early Church Fathers. And you have to deny the 70+ verses clearly indicating Peter's role as leader and spokesman for the Apostles.

​It's interesting that legalistic "Greek only" sola scripturists avoid the original Aramaic like the plague, not interested in the truth of what Jesus actually spoke.
 

mjrhealth

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I have addressed the point by quoting Protestant scholars. You just don't like them. The primacy of Kepha does not rest on two words translated to a single verse. His primacy has to be in harmony with the whole of Scripture, which you seem to deny.
But yours isnt

If it was Peter he was building His chruch on He would of said," and upon "YOU", but He never did because He was refering to previous line of which that was all about.

Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

It was all about revelation, but todays curch has none it all built on mens idealogies and lies to keep the people from God.

Mat 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

You should read the rest.
 

epostle1

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mjrhealth said:
But yours isnt
I listed 70 verses showing Peter's primacy that is line with Jesus giving Simon bar Jonah (which is Aramaic) a new name, all you give is an opinion.

Mark 3:16; John 1:42 – Jesus renames Simon "Kepha" in Aramaic which literally means "rock." This was an extraordinary thing for Jesus to do, because "rock" was not even a name in Jesus' time. Jesus did this, not to give Simon a strange name, but to identify his new status among the apostles. When God changes a person's name, He changes their status.

Gen. 17:5; 32:28; 2 Kings 23:34; Acts 9:4; 13:9 - for example, in these verses, we see that God changes the following people's names and, as a result, they become special agents of God: Abram to Abraham; Jacob to Israel, Eliakim to Jehoiakim, Saul to Paul.
Do you refuse to believe Jesus changed Kepha's status with a new name, that wasn't even a name?

If it was Peter he was building His chruch on He would of said," and upon "YOU", but He never did because He was refering to previous line of which that was all about.
Matt. 16:18 - also, in quoting "on this rock," the Scriptures use the Greek construction "tautee tee" which means on "this" rock; on "this same" rock; or on "this very" rock. "Tautee tee" is a demonstrative construction in Greek, pointing to Peter, the subject of the sentence (and not his confession of faith as some non-Catholics argue) as the very rock on which Jesus builds His Church. The demonstrative (“tautee”) generally refers to its closest antecedent (“Petros”). Also, there is no place in Scripture where “faith” is equated with “rock.”

Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

It was all about revelation, but todays curch has none it all built on mens idealogies and lies to keep the people from God.
Kepha gets a revelation directly from God but he is still just an average apostle? Jesus didn't think so, but you do. The Church teaches what has been divinely revealed, but you have this rebellious comic book view of "church" that is contrary to everything the Bible says about her..

Mat 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. You should read the rest



this has nothing to do with the primacy of Kepha, but everything to do with how you view all churches.
 

shnarkle

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And not one of them deals with this grammatical issue. This is elementary grammar. All you have to do is find one that addresses the grammatical problem. JUST ONE. Find one that will tell you that a feminine article and noun CAN refer to a masculine noun or name. Find one that can supply you with an explanation as to why the author didn't need to write "this rock" in the masculine so it would agree exactly as if it were written in the Aramaic. This shouldn't be difficult for such a simple question. Again, you can have your doctrinal assertions. I won't deny any of them. I may even agree that Peter is the head of the church, but what no one has done is to supply any grammatical evidence to support this ridiculous assertion.

If the first verse of scripture stated: "In the beginning Satan created the heavens and the earth...etc." The entire rest of scripture couldn't change what that first verse states. We could come to the conclusion that someone may have changed the first verse, or made a mistake; a scribal error. This is what I've had presented to me in the past, and it is by far the best reason I've ever heard. All the scholars and theologians in the world can't change the elementary rules of Greek grammar to fit their theology. Keep your theology as it is, but you don't need this verse for Peter to remain ensconced in his throne of authority. To go through the entirety of scripture to attempt to prove that it can somehow alter or nullify Greek grammar is laughable, not to mention insulting; you might as well suggest that these doctrines can change your bible into bread, or Greek into Hebrew.

I see this all the time. My favorite example is "you must be born of water and spirit....etc." which many seem to think is a reference to water baptism. Anyone who disagrees with this is supplied with an exhaustive list of all the verses in scripture to support the need or purpose of water baptism as if denial of this meaning for this passage necessarily denies the need or purpose of water baptism; it doesn't. It just simply isn't a reference to water baptism. The same is true for "this rock", but theology seems to trump the laws of language and grammar for some people. Since that won't fly on any test at any level of education in any reputable school of learning, you'll just have to come up with something more creative, or dare I say; deceptive?

Ask any of your Catholic or Protestant theologians or scholars if they would pass or fail a student who pointed out that 'this rock' cannot grammatically refer to Peter. If they say that this isn't necessarily the case, then they need to come up with a grammatical reason why this isn't necessarily the case. It really doesn't get any simpler than that.

What you fail to understand, among other things; is that I'm not disputing your claims at all. Even though there are no extant Aramaic manuscripts that predate the oldest Greek texts, I'm not disputing what your imaginary Aramaic states. I'm asking you why you seem to think the Greek text we have in front of us is irrelevant? It is, after all; what we're dealing with is it not? The only conclusion that one can come to is that the author made a mistake. To be accurate; a blunder. Why is that so difficult for you to admit? Why must you strive to search the scriptures to produce vast walls of text that have essentially nothing to do with the subject of this discussion? What is so difficult about actually looking at this sentence? What is it about this sentence that seems to strike such fear that the rest of scripture and the history of the doctrines of Catholicism must be consulted and displayed?

"σὺ εἶ Πέτρος καὶ ἐπὶ ταύτῃ τῇ πέτρᾳ...etc."

Look at the suffixes. "os" is masculine. "a" is feminine. This is elementary Greek grammar. This isn't the dogmatic assertions of the Catholic church we're dealing with here. This has nothing to do with polemics or who gets to sit on the fancy gold throne and tell people if they're forgiven or not. No one is interested in your walls of text that have nothing to do with this sentence.

you
PPro-N2S
1510 [e]
ei
εἶ

are
V-PIA-2S
4074 [e]

Petros
Πέτρος ,
Peter
N-NMS
2532 [e]

kai
καὶ
and
Conj
1909 [e]

epi
ἐπὶ
on
Prep
3778 [e]

tautē
ταύτῃ
this
DPro-DFS
3588 [e]


τῇ
the
Art-DFS
4073 [e]

petra
πέτρᾳ
rock
N-DFS
3618 [e]

oikodomēsō
οἰκοδομήσω
I will build
V-FIA-1S
1473 [e]

mou
μου
my
PPro-G1S
3588 [e]

tēn
τὴν
-
Art-AFS
1577 [e]

ekklēsian
ἐκκλησίαν ,
church
N-AFS
 

shnarkle

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What you fail to understand, among other things; is that I'm not disputing your claims at all. Even though there are no extant Aramaic manuscripts that predate the oldest Greek texts, I'm not disputing what your imaginary Aramaic states. I'm asking you why you seem to think the Greek text we have in front of us is irrelevant? It is, after all; what we're dealing with is it not? The only conclusion that one can come to is that the author made a mistake. To be accurate; a blunder. Why is that so difficult for you to admit? Why must you strive to search the scriptures to produce vast walls of text that have essentially nothing to do with the subject of this discussion? What is so difficult about actually looking at this sentence? What is it about this sentence that seems to strike such fear that the rest of scripture and the history of the doctrines of Catholicism must be consulted and displayed?

"σὺ εἶ Πέτρος καὶ ἐπὶ ταύτῃ τῇ πέτρᾳ...etc."
----------Petros--------------------------petra
Look at the suffixes. "os" is masculine. "a" is feminine. This is elementary Greek grammar. This isn't the dogmatic assertions of the Catholic church we're dealing with here. This has nothing to do with polemics or who gets to sit on the fancy gold throne and tell people if they're forgiven or not. No one is interested in your walls of text that have nothing to do with this sentence.
 

epostle1

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I've dealt with "petra" repeatedly, and you have dismissed the Aramaic as imaginary because it resolves the grammatical problem your whole argument rests upon. Guess what, there are no original Greek manuscripts either. FYI, the Syrian Bible is extant Aramaic. You have failed to answer the question in post #118, I can only assume you don't have one, since I've asked for an answer 3 times.

"petra" does not reduce Kepha to have the same authority as the rest of the Apostles. Interpret it any way you like, it does not supplant, cancel, diminish or reduce Kepha's role in the 70+ verses you ignored.

I'm still waiting for an explanation why Jesus would use his 'imaginary' Aramaic in John 1:14, or why Paul would use the 'imaginary' Aramaic Kepha to Greek speaking communities, and of course, Jesus used 'imaginary' Aramaic on the cross.

You refuse to admit the meaning of "you are Kepha and upon this Kepha" is lost in the "all holy and infallible" Greek, and shoving Greek in my face won't change the words of Jesus no matter how hard you try.
 

shnarkle

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kepha31 said:
I've dealt with "petra" repeatedly,


Not in this forum you haven't.




and you have dismissed the Aramaic as imaginary because it resolves the grammatical problem your whole argument rests upon.

Not only have I accepted your imaginary Aramaic position, I've asked you how this power that resides in the Aramaic is able to change the laws of Grammar in a completely different language.




Guess what, there are no original Greek manuscripts either.

Guess what, I never claimed there were. I stated: "the oldest Greek texts"



FYI, the Syrian Bible is extant Aramaic.

And derived from the Greek which as I've pointed out already are older.



You have failed to answer the question in post #118,

The question that had nothing to do with the grammar of the sentence in question? Do you really find that so unusual? Why would I waste my time answering irrelevant questions when I can simply point out that you're grasping at straws?



I can only assume you don't have one, since I've asked for an answer 3 times.

I'll go along with all of your claims. I agree with everything you claim. How's that? Happy? Now it's your turn. I've answered your question by agreeing with your assertions. I don't even need an explanation for your assertions. How about answering the only question that this topic is even dealing with in the first place?



"petra" does not reduce Kepha to have the same authority as the rest of the Apostles.

Great! Glad to hear it. That's a load of grief off my mind. I can now rest easy knowing that petra is not in any way reducing kepha to the level of a mere apostle. How about answering the question now. What strange and wondrous grammatical law are we ignorant of that mysteriously causes a feminine article and noun to suddenly refer to a masculine noun or name?




Interpret it any way you like, it does not supplant, cancel, diminish or reduce Kepha's role in the 70+ verses you ignored.

I'm not saying it does. Why would you accuse me of such a blasphemous assertion? I would never think of such a thing. The thought never entered my head. What did enter my mind was why a feminine article and noun could ever refer to a masculine noun or name. Is this just another one of those mysteries we're just not supposed to know?


I'm still waiting for an explanation why Jesus would use his 'imaginary' Aramaic in John 1:14, or why Paul would use the 'imaginary' Aramaic Kepha to Greek speaking communities, and of course, Jesus used 'imaginary' Aramaic on the cross.

Start a thread on it and maybe someone will respond to your questions. Again, I'm not denying any of it. I'll concede that everything you say is correct and absolutely true. How about now? Can you answer the question now?



You refuse to admit the meaning of "you are Kepha and upon this Kepha" is lost in the "all holy and infallible" Greek,

Again, I have no idea where you're getting this from. I'll grant you whatever meaning you please. I'd just like to know how your meanings are able to violate the laws of Greek grammar. What is this amazing magical power that these meanings have over elementary Greek grammar? A simple question for a doctrine that is so obvious to everyone.



and shoving Greek in my face won't change the words of Jesus no matter how hard you try.

Well, then I'll place these overwhelming and oh so intimidating Geek words a little farther away so they aren't so threatening to you. Happy? Now, how about enlightening us all on how the meaning of the Aramaic words Jesus spoke to Peter are able to magically transubstantiate feminine articles and nouns into references to masculine nouns or names.
 

mjrhealth

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this has nothing to do with the primacy of Kepha, but everything to do with how you view all churches.
Cant help it I can only agree with God not the lies of men.

It amazes me how man can build a whole religion based on one tiny lie.
 

shnarkle

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mjrhealth said:
Cant help it I can only agree with God not the lies of men.

It amazes me how man can build a whole religion based on one tiny lie.
You lack imagination. In this regard, this is a good thing. The "lie" is based the violation of God's law, specifically the third commandment:

"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven IMAGE"..."

This includes our own vain imaginations as well. Some people can get these things etched in their brains to the point where they'll never get them out.

"...Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them:..."

Unless of course they're lesser gods than God. Then it's okay. It's okay to form some hierarchy of people with one in charge who may rule as if he were God; just as long as everyone is clear that he's not really God. He can be infallible like God. He can be in charge over everyone else just like God. He can be pre-eminent just like God. He can be the first in line, get his picture taken first, have his name first in all lists, he can have a star next to his name so everyone may know he's the important one in the group. Heck everyone can even bow down and serve him as if he were God because we all know he isn't really God. This worship isn't really a big deal with God. He's not going to get jealous; he's bigger than that...or is he?


"... for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;"

Well since papists don't hate God, they have nothing to worry about. Given this fact, they'll choose to worry about other more important things like the possibility that there are those who have some sinister or malevolent purpose in the usage of the word "papist", or the threatening, yet impotent meaning of Greek words. The one other thing they'll never worry about is the mysterious power of spoken Aramaic to actually negate the meaning, usage, and grammatical construction of written Greek text.
 

epostle1

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shnarkle said:
Not in this forum you haven't.
I can't make the blind see.

Not only have I accepted your imaginary Aramaic position, I've asked you how this power that resides in the Aramaic is able to change the laws of Grammar in a completely different language.
You have it backwards.

Guess what, I never claimed there were. I stated: "the oldest Greek texts"
what Jesus said predates any text.

And derived from the Greek which as I've pointed out already are older.
No scholar, Protestant or Catholic, would agree with you. Try and find one. No Greek text is older than the Aramaic Matthew translated from.

The question that had nothing to do with the grammar of the sentence in question? Do you really find that so unusual? Why would I waste my time answering irrelevant questions when I can simply point out that you're grasping at straws?
Special pleading. The only obvious answer is the truth, which is why you refuse to answer it.
Matthew was a translator, not an interpreter. Matthew had no other way to make the translation, he had a grammatical problem. and Protestant polemics and prejudice has been waving one word around like a flag, forcing them to ignore Kepha's primacy that is found all over the NT.

What it actually says: (KJV)

Matt. 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Christ is the rock theory:

19 And I will give unto me the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever I shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever I shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Kepha's faith is the rock theory

19 And I will give your confession of faith the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever your confession of faith shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever your confession of faith shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.


who or what is the focus on in what it actually says?

I'll go along with all of your claims. I agree with everything you claim. How's that? Happy? Now it's your turn. I've answered your question by agreeing with your assertions. I don't even need an explanation for your assertions. How about answering the only question that this topic is even dealing with in the first place?

Great! Glad to hear it. That's a load of grief off my mind. I can now rest easy knowing that petra is not in any way reducing kepha to the level of a mere apostle. How about answering the question now. What strange and wondrous grammatical law are we ignorant of that mysteriously causes a feminine article and noun to suddenly refer to a masculine noun or name?

I'm not saying it does. Why would you accuse me of such a blasphemous assertion? I would never think of such a thing. The thought never entered my head. What did enter my mind was why a feminine article and noun could ever refer to a masculine noun or name. Is this just another one of those mysteries we're just not supposed to know? Start a thread on it and maybe someone will respond to your questions. Again, I'm not denying any of it. I'll concede that everything you say is correct and absolutely true. How about now? Can you answer the question now?
Your problem is being a sola Greekurist.

Craig L. Blomberg (Baptist)
"The expression ‘this rock’ almost certainly refers to Peter, following immediately after his name, just as the words following ‘the Christ’ in verse 16 applied to Jesus. The play on words in the Greek between Peter’s name (Petros) and the word ‘rock’ (petra) makes sense only if Peter is the Rock and if Jesus is about to explain the significance of this identification" (
see the clue in the above question)
[New American Commentary: Matthew, 22:252].


Donald A. Carson (Baptist)
“On the basis of the distinction between 'petros' . . . and 'petra' . . . , many have attempted to avoid identifying Peter as the rock on which Jesus builds his church. Peter is a mere 'stone,' it is alleged; but Jesus himself is the 'rock' . . . Others adopt some other distinction . . . Yet if it were not for Protestant reactions against extremes of Catholic interpretation, it is doubtful whether many would have taken 'rock' to be anything or anyone other than Peter . . . The Greek makes the distinction between 'petros' and 'petra' simply because it is trying to preserve the pun, and in Greek the feminine 'petra' could not very well serve as a masculine name . . . Had Matthew wanted to say no more than that Peter was a stone in contrast with Jesus the Rock, the more common word would have been 'lithos' ('stone' of almost any size). Then there would have been no pun - and that is just the point! . . . In this passage Jesus is the builder of the church and it would be a strange mixture of metaphors that also sees him within the same clauses as its foundation . . .”
(Expositor's Bible Commentary, [Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1984], vol. 8: Matthew, Mark, Luke (Matthew: D.A. Carson), 368)

J. Knox Chamblin (Contemporary Presbyterian)
"By the words ‘this rock’ Jesus means not himself, nor his teaching, nor God the Father, nor Peter’s confession, but Peter himself. The phrase is immediately preceded by a direct and emphatic reference to Peter. As Jesus identifies himself as the builder, the rock on which he builds is most naturally understood as someone (or something) other than Jesus himself"
["Matthew" in Evangelical Commentary on the Bible, 742].


get it? see walls of Protestant scholars directly and explicitly dealing with petros/petra in post #106 and 108 that you say I haven't dealt with.

Again, I have no idea where you're getting this from. I'll grant you whatever meaning you please. I'd just like to know how your meanings are able to violate the laws of Greek grammar. What is this amazing magical power that these meanings have over elementary Greek grammar? A simple question for a doctrine that is so obvious to everyone.
Greek grammar does violence to Aramaic when translated, and it is "obvious" to everyone having petra drilled into their brains all their lives. The fires of the reformation have cooled enough to allow Protestant scholars to concede that the Catholic understanding of the grammar is correct, although they may not agree to all that it implies.

Well, then I'll place these overwhelming and oh so intimidating Geek words a little farther away so they aren't so threatening to you. Happy? Now, how about enlightening us all on how the meaning of the Aramaic words Jesus spoke to Peter are able to magically transubstantiate feminine articles and nouns into references to masculine nouns or names.
The Aramaic has no feminine articles or constructive pronouns. The only way to solve the Greek grammatical problem was to insert them. The Greek is not overwhelming or intimidating. You are a sola Greekurist clinging desperately to outdated Protestant polemics and prejudice.

Kepha is the Rock upon which Christ builds His Church, verified by the following verse, where no pronouns or articles will rescue you.

Matt. 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
 

mjrhealth

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The sad thing was if you where to try and tell anyone who didnt know about teh catholic religion how deceptive it ws, they probably would not believe you, but here we have them showing how they twist scripture and the bible to "justify" there religion, bit like the devil when he..

Mat 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.
Mat 4:2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred.
Mat 4:3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.
Mat 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
Mat 4:5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,
Mat 4:6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
Mat 4:7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
Mat 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
Mat 4:9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
Mat 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

we all know where lies come from
 

shnarkle

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kepha31 said:
[/size][/color]Matthew had no other way to make the translation, he had a grammatical problem.
Uh, no he didn't. There is no reason why he couldn't have written "taute te petra" in the masculine form e.g. "tautw tw petrw". Everyone agrees that there was no distinction between the immovable boulder of "petra" and the so-called stone of "petros"; they are equivalent. The masculine form would have made it EXACTLY the same as the Aramaic.

and Protestant polemics and prejudice has been waving one word around like a flag, forcing them to ignore Kepha's primacy that is found all over the NT.
I'm not a Protestant, nor am I engaging in polemics or prejudice. Kepha is God. How is that? Is that enough for you to accept that I'm okay with the primacy of Kepha? I really don't care to argue any of that nonsense. I'm fine with your kepha being the prime mover if you're that obsessed with it. I'm just asking a grammatical question that you seem hell bent on ignoring. What are you so afraid of?

Craig L. Blomberg (Baptist)
"The expression ‘this rock’ almost certainly refers to Peter, following immediately after his name,
This is nothing more than an assertion, and says nothing about why the genders don't match.


just as the words following ‘the Christ’ in verse 16 applied to Jesus.
Yeah, well that would be because he says: "YOU are the Christ" That's a bit more explicit don't you think???

The play on words in the Greek between Peter’s name (Petros) and the word ‘rock’ (petra) makes sense only if Peter is the Rock and if Jesus is about to explain the significance of this identification"
No one is denying the word play here. Of course Peter means rock; we got that.



Donald A. Carson (Baptist)
“On the basis of the distinction between 'petros' . . . and 'petra' . . . , many have attempted to avoid identifying Peter as the rock on which Jesus builds his church. Peter is a mere 'stone,'

I already covered all of this in my first post. I conceded the stone/rock argument was invalid, which is precisely why the gender issue is so relevant. The fact that you're addressing this aspect of the argument spotlights the fact that you are either completely incapable of comprehending the argument or you are a hypocrite for even posting this in the first place. Why? Because you've already claimed that this doesn't matter, yet here it is. The stone/rock argument is moot as there is no distinction to be made between the two, therefore there is no reason whatsoever for Matthew to write "taute te petra" in the first place. He could have written it in the masculine form just as easily to make it agree with the masculine form of Peter's name.


it is alleged; but Jesus himself is the 'rock' . . . Others adopt some other distinction . . . Yet if it were not for Protestant reactions against extremes of Catholic interpretation, it is doubtful whether many would have taken 'rock' to be anything or anyone other than Peter . . .
Do you even read this stuff before you post it? He's saying that if no one had noticed the fact that the genders didn't match, no one would have noticed. Gee, he's pointing out that they almost got away with their little deception.


You're posting too much garbage here. The forum doesn't even allow this many quotes so how about just confining it to what we're talking about instead of reposting stuff we already covered, and which I already refuted. Just post something that advances the discussion if you have anything left. Thanks.
.
 

shnarkle

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The Greek makes the distinction between 'petros' and 'petra' simply because it is trying to preserve the pun, and in Greek the feminine 'petra' could not very well serve as a masculine name . . .
Again, I've already addressed this and refuted it as well. The only reason this argument would be valid is if the distinction between the stone of "petros" and the boulder of "petra" was still valid. That distinction didn't exist in the koine Greek, so this argument falls flat as a skipping stone.

Had Matthew wanted to say no more than that Peter was a stone in contrast with Jesus the Rock, the more common word would have been 'lithos' ('stone' of almost any size). Then there would have been no pun - and that is just the point!
The fact is that Matthew wasn't making a comparison between stones and rocks. So this is just more straw for imbeciles to chew on.

. . . In this passage Jesus is the builder of the church and it would be a strange mixture of metaphors that also sees him within the same clauses as its foundation . . .”
Not as strange as changing the elementary rules of Greek grammar to suit your dogmatic assertions.

J. Knox Chamblin (Contemporary Presbyterian)
"By the words ‘this rock’ Jesus means not himself, nor his teaching, nor God the Father, nor Peter’s confession, but Peter himself.
This is an assertion; nothing more.

The phrase is immediately preceded by a direct and emphatic reference to Peter. As Jesus identifies himself as the builder, the rock on which he builds is most naturally understood as someone (or something) other than Jesus himself"
Makes perfect sense, except for those pesky laws of language; the elementary rules of Greek grammar require that a feminine article and noun must refer to a feminine noun or name. So why wouldn't Matthew simply write "tautw tw petrw"?. This would have been then agreed with "petros"; they'd both be in the masculine form and no grammatical gymnastics would be required to force these words to undergo gender reassignment surgery.

Again, I have no idea where you're getting this from. I'll grant you whatever meaning you please. I'd just like to know how your meanings are able to violate the laws of Greek grammar. What is this amazing magical power that these meanings have over elementary Greek grammar? A simple question for a doctrine that is so obvious to everyone.
Greek grammar does violence to Aramaic when translated,
Ah, at least now you're admitting that what we're dealing with here isn't the same grammatically. That's progress. I'm proud of you. The first step is always to admit there's a problem. Now we just need to work on your persecution complex. Greek grammar isn't doing anything to Aramaic. They are two completely different languages. Aramaic is gender neutral while Greek is gender specific. The Greek grammar isn't changing anything of your beloved Aramaic. Your Aramaic is still just as gender neutral as it ever was. Whatever neutering happened to the Aramaic happened long before it came in contact with Greek grammar, so blaming Greek for the castration of Aramaic is just pathetic.

Well, then I'll place these overwhelming and oh so intimidating Geek words a little farther away so they aren't so threatening to you. Happy? Now, how about enlightening us all on how the meaning of the Aramaic words Jesus spoke to Peter are able to magically transubstantiate feminine articles and nouns into references to masculine nouns or names.
The Aramaic has no feminine articles or constructive pronouns.
Uh, yeah. Are you just figuring this out now? Did you miss the part where we all noted that the Aramaic is a gender neutral language while the Greek is gender specific? Seriously, are following the argument at all, or just posting crap from online to waste time?

The only way to solve the Greek grammatical problem was to insert them.
What Greek grammatical problem? Insert what into where? It sounds like you're suggesting that the Greek masculine articles are about to rape your spayed Aramaic nouns. There is no problem with the Greek. Greek doesn't have a problem solving where to insert articles and nouns. The problem would be if someone were to remove them. Then no one would know who was referring to what.
 

epostle1

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I'll be gone for a week.

Matt. 16:18 κἀγὼ δέ σοι λέγω ὅτι σὺ εἶ Πέτρος, καὶ ἐπὶ ταύτῃ τῇ πέτρᾳ οἰκοδομήσω μου τὴν ἐκκλησίαν, καὶ πύλαι ἅδου οὐ κατισχύσουσιν αὐτῆς.

this time cribbed so you can understand it.

κἀγὼ [I, emphatically, in response to Peter’s delaration]
δέ [and, also, postpositive: together with first word, and I or I also]
σοι [2nd person singular dative pronoun, to you]
λέγω [(I) say]
ὅτι [that]
σὺ [2nd person singular nominative pronoun, you, emphatically]
εἶ [2nd person singular present active, are]
Πέτρος [Peter],
καὶ [and]
ἐπὶ [preposition on, upon]
ταύτῃ [this]
τῇ πέτρᾳ [rock]
οἰκοδομήσω [first person singular future active I will build, as in building a house]
μου [my (lit. of me)]
τὴν ἐκκλησίαν [church (lit. a calling out, a meeting, an assembly — but concretely and universally in Christian lit. refers to the Church)],
καὶ [and]
πύλαι [(the) gates]
ἅδου [of hades]
οὐ [negative particle, not]
κατισχύσουσιν [3rd person plural future active, will overpower]
αὐτῆς [it].

Now, the first thing to note about this is that Jesus addresses Peter in the second person singular: that is, he says you and not y’all. The distinction between the second-person singular and plural personal pronouns has died out in modern English; technically, the singular personal pronouns (thou, thy, thee) have died out and been replaced by the plural (ye, your, you). This is why the Southern U.S. y’all will save the English language. But back to the point: Jesus addresses Peter in the singular you — the King James’ Thou art Peter actually preserves the important distinction. So there can be no question that Jesus is speaking to Peter and to Peter alone here; not to all the Apostles; not to all Christians.

Second, and more important: the wordplay. The name “Peter” — Petros in Greek, Petrus in Latin — translates as “Rock.” Jesus is giving Simon a new name, Peter or Rock, in reference to his firmness or steadfastness.
And on this Rock I will build my Church. “You are Rock, and on this Rock I will build my Church.” That’s the proper way to understand the statement, had it been spoken in English.

Now, the common anti-Catholic refutation of this is thus (first put forward by Luther himself): the Evangelist uses different words in the Greek for Peter and Rock. You are Peter (Πέτρος, Petros) and upon this Rock (πέτρα, petra) I will build my Church. Not only are the two words different, but they are different genders — Petros is masculine and petra is feminine — and they have supposedly, according to the Protestant argument, different meanings in Greek. A petros is a small rock or a piece of rock; a petra is the bedrock or a massive rock formation. Therefore clearly, Jesus wasn’t referring to the same rock in both cases, so the argument goes.

There are several reasons why this argument doesn’t work. First of all, the context. Jesus had asked the disciples who they said he was: John the Baptist, Elijah, Jeremiah, some other prophet? And in one of the most dramatic moments of the Gospel, Peter confesses that Jesus is the Christ. And Jesus in turn confesses Peter: “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I say to you . . .” The episode would not make any sense if Jesus had said, “I rename you Peter, a steadfast Rock; and on this (other) rock I will build my Church.”

Not only does that not make sense — but Jesus doesn’t say “other” — he says ταύτῃ, this rock. And there doesn’t seem to be any other rock, any petra present. The common Protestant argument is that petra here refers to Peter’s confession or Peter’s faith. But if that were the case, why the wordplay on Peter’s name? Even more so, why the wordplay without any clarification of the ambiguous metaphor? It seems unlike Matthew to let such an ambiguous statement go without explanation, who in other places is careful to provide explanations for the fulfillment of prophecies (Matthew 3), difficult parables (Matthew 13), and foreign words (Matthew 27:46). The reason he doesn’t here is because to Matthew, and to his earliest readers, it wasn’t ambiguous.

In fact, the literary structure of Jesus’s proclamation mirrors Peter’s exactly: “You are the Christ” / “You are Peter.”
And Jesus’s other pronouncements here are perhaps even more important, more indicative of Peter’s singular authority, than His pronouncement of Peter as “Rock”. Jesus gives three separate blessings directed to Peter and Peter alone that leave no doubt of His intention to invest Peter specifically with authority:
  • You (Peter) are “Rock,” and on this rock I will build My Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
  • I will give you (Peter) the keys of the kingdom of heaven [mirroring “the gates of hell”].
  • Whatever you (Peter) bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven [linked implicitly to the “keys”].
Further, there is no evidence, beyond the assertion itself, that the meanings of petros and petra are as distinct as Protestants argue. No scholarly lexicon I have consulted, in particular neither the LSJ for Classical Greek nor the BDAG for Koine, supports the definiton of petros as merely a small rock or piece of rock. The words seem, rather, to be nearly synonymous. If there is a distinction between them at all, it is between petra, a great mass of rock, and petros, stone as a monumental building material — for building, say, a Church.

But most important: there are perfectly good reasons why Matthew used two different words here, Petros and petra: this was the only way to compose the statement so that it would make sense in Greek.

1) Peter’s name in Greek is Petros, not Petra. Why didn’t they call him Petra in Greek? Because Petra is a feminine noun, and Peter is a male. By the time the Gospels were written, Petros had been his Greek name for decades.

2) Even supposing the Protestant argument about the different meanings of the words petros and petra were true (all evidence is that this is an anti-Catholic invention) — Jesus wouldn’t have said “on this petros I will build my Church,” to make the statement in Greek seem less ambiguous (to us), because that wasn’t what He meant. He meant “I will build my Church on this bedrock,” this unmovable foundation, not this piece of rock.

3) Greek is an inflected language, meaning that the endings of words change depending on the grammatical function in which they are used. For example, πέτρος (petros), πέτρον (petron), and πετρῷ (petro) are all the very same word. So variations in the endings of words with the same stem seem quite natural to the Greek mind, and the difference between petros and petra would have seemed much less significant than it does to an English-speaker. In fact, this type of wordplay between similar-sounding words, called paronomasia, was common in ancient Greek.

4) Jesus wasn’t speaking Greek at all. Scholars are pretty certain that in His day-to-day life and teachings, Jesus spoke Aramaic. The Gospels quote Jesus in Aramaic for special dramatic emphasis: “Talitha cumi” (Mark 5:41), “Abba, Father” (Mark 14:36), “Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?” (Mark 15.34).
So if Jesus was speaking Aramaic, the words for Peter and Rock — Petros and petra — would have been the same word: Kepha (כיפא‎).
“You are Kepha and on this Kepha I will build my Church,” is what Jesus would have said...

5) The Aramaic Kepha (כיפא‎) was rendered into Greek as Kephas (Κηφᾶς). Why didn’t Matthew just use that in both cases? Because it would have been as awkward as my sentence above, saying most of the sentence in Greek and a couple of words in Aramaic, and then having to explain it. Matthew’s readers apparently didn’t know Aramaic — or at least, if the book was originally written in Hebrew or Aramaic as some of the Church Fathers suggest, whoever translated it into Greek didn’t expect his readers would know Aramaic, and provided a crib for the Aramaic phrases.

6) To further confirm the Catholic interpretation — it’s not a Catholic interpretation; at least not an invention or reinterpretation of the modern Catholic Church as anti-Catholics charge. This is the way this Scripture has been interpreted since the very earliest biblical commentators:

“. . . I think it my duty to consult the chair of Peter, and to turn to a Church whose faith has been praised by Paul . . . The fruitful soil of Rome, when it receives the pure seed of the Lord, bears fruit an hundredfold . . . My words are spoken to the successor of the fisherman, to the disciple of the Cross. As I follow no leader save Christ, so I communicate with none but your blessedness, that is with the chair of Peter. For this, I know, is the Rock on which the Church is built! This is the house where alone the Paschal Lamb can be rightly eaten. This is the Ark of Noah, and he who is not found in it shall perish when the )flood prevails.”
—St. Jerome, To Pope Damasus, Epistle 15:1-2 (A.D. 375

“Number the bishops from the See of Peter itself. And in that order of Fathers see who has succeeded whom. That is the rock against which the gates of hell do not prevail.”
—St. Augustine, Psalm against the Party of Donatus, 18 (A.D. 393)

“Wherefore the most holy and blessed Leo, archbishop of the great and elder Rome, through us, and through this present most holy synod together with the thrice blessed and all-glorious Peter the Apostle, who is the rock and foundation of the Catholic Church, and the foundation of the orthodox faith, hath stripped him of the episcopate, and hath alienated from him all hieratic worthiness. Therefore let this most holy and great synod sentence the before mentioned Dioscorus to the canonical penalties.”
—Council of Chalcedon, Session III (A.D. 451)

Peter is the ROCK upon which Christ builds His Church.

2 Sam. 22:2-3, 32, 47; 23:3; Psalm 18:2,31,46; 19:4; 28:1; 42:9; 62:2,6,7; 89:26; 94:22; 144:1-2 - in these verses, God is also called "rock." Hence, from these verses, non-Catholics often argue that God, and not Peter, is the rock that Jesus is referring to in Matt. 16:18. This argument not only ignores the plain meaning of the applicable texts, but also assumes words used in Scripture can only have one meaning. This, of course, is not true. For example:

1 Cor. 3:11 - Jesus is called the only foundation of the Church, and yet in Eph. 2:20, the apostles are called the foundation of the Church. Similarly, in 1 Peter 2:25, Jesus is called the Shepherd of the flock, but in Acts 20:28, the apostles are called the shepherds of the flock. These verses show that there are multiple metaphors for the Church, and that words used by the inspired writers of Scripture can have various meanings. Catholics agree that God is the rock of the Church, but this does not mean He cannot confer this distinction upon Peter as well, to facilitate the unity He desires for the Church.
 

shnarkle

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For all who have nothing better to do than read this pointless discussion, but may not be aware of what is really going on here, kepha is posting completely irrelevant material from the internet. Then, reposting it again, and again, and again. For some reason kepha is under some impression that we're all impressed with a load of information that no one is even disputing in the first place. The idea here is to deflect, distract, and derail the topic onto some other point in order to lead everyone away from the one thing this topic is about, namely; the sentence: "you are rock, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" which in the gender specific Greek language requires that articles and nouns agree in gender, number, and case. In this situation we are only dealing with gender as no one is disputing the number or case. This is of no matter to Kepha who thinks we all need to pay attention to this and the opinions of church fathers who also have a vested interest in retaining power.


Jesus addresses Peter in the singular you
Yes, we're all familiar with the text. The text plainly indicates that Simon is responding to Jesus' question, and when he says "you are Peter, we can all see that he isn't calling everyone in the crowd Peter; but thanks for clarifying that for anyone who may have thought Jesus was giving all of his disciples the same name. Perhaps there are some who might think Jesus had some difficulty remembering names.


Second, and more important: the wordplay. The name “Peter” — Petros in Greek, Petrus in Latin — translates as “Rock.” Jesus is giving Simon a new name, Peter or Rock, in reference to his firmness or steadfastness.
Again, no one is disputing that there is a wordplay here. How many times do we have to read someone else reiterate the fact that there is a wordplay going on here? Are you going to provide us with an exhaustive list of everyone in church history who may have noticed that there is a wordplay here?

However, the reference is not to Peter's firmness or steadfastness, and there is really no reason to defend this assertion as the claim that it is a reference to his firmness isn't defended either. We don't need to read anything into the text. Jesus is simply pointing out that his church will be built on "this rock" and drawing our attention to this wordplay between "this rock" and Peter's name which is also "rock"


And on this Rock I will build my Church. “You are Rock, and on this Rock I will build my Church.” That’s the proper way to understand the statement, had it been spoken in English.
Again, we're not disputing that the Aramaic as well as the English are gender neutral languages. However, we are pointing out that the Greek is a gender specific language, and that the text in front of us is also this same Greek language. We are not, nor have we ever claimed that the Greek language has some power over gender neutral languages like Aramaic, or English. We are not claiming that the Greek language is able to alter the meaning of other languages. We are not claiming that the Greek language negates the value or beauty of any other languages. We are not claiming that the Greek language negates the fact that Jesus spoke Aramaic.


Not only are the two words different, but they are different genders — Petros is masculine and petra is feminine — and they have supposedly, according to the Protestant argument, different meanings in Greek. A petros is a small rock or a piece of rock; a petra is the bedrock or a massive rock formation. Therefore clearly, Jesus wasn’t referring to the same rock in both cases, so the argument goes.
Let's see here. I posted this argument already AND refuted it as well. You already posted this argument at least twice, and refuted it. I also noted that this argument had been posted by you and noted that it had been easily refuted. Now, for some unknown reason; we are yet again presented with this same stone/rock argument which has already been presented and refuted. So why are we being presented with this again? Did you read my last post? No one is claiming that the author is making this stone/rock comparison. In point of fact, if this stone/rock comparison were valid, my argument would be false.


There are several reasons why this argument doesn’t work. First of all, the context. Jesus had asked the disciples who they said he was: John the Baptist, Elijah, Jeremiah, some other prophet? And in one of the most dramatic moments of the Gospel, Peter confesses that Jesus is the Christ. And Jesus in turn confesses Peter: “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I say to you . . .” The episode would not make any sense if Jesus had said, “I rename you Peter, a steadfast Rock; and on this (other) rock I will build my Church.”
Once again, no one is disputing the statement: "you are rock and on this rock I will build my church". No one is claiming that the statement needs to be rewritten. No one is claiming that the wordplay needs to be reworked. We would prefer to leave it just as it is.


Not only does that not make sense — but Jesus doesn’t say “other” — he says ταύτῃ, this rock. And there doesn’t seem to be any other rock, any petra present.
This is where context is key, but we'll leave that for later as we're still trying to get you to focus on the grammar. Starting with the text itself is always a good idea. Looking around for the opinions from commentators over the last 2000 years tends to muddy the waters a bit.


The common Protestant argument is that petra here refers to Peter’s confession or Peter’s faith. But if that were the case, why the wordplay on Peter’s name? Even more so, why the wordplay without any clarification of the ambiguous metaphor? It seems unlike Matthew to let such an ambiguous statement go without explanation, who in other places is careful to provide explanations for the fulfillment of prophecies (Matthew 3), difficult parables (Matthew 13), and foreign words (Matthew 27:46). The reason he doesn’t here is because to Matthew, and to his earliest readers, it wasn’t ambiguous.
Again, I'm not a Protestant, and I'm not claiming that "this rock" refers to Peter's confession. What I am asking is how you're going to reconcile this blatant violation of elementary Greek grammar.


You (Peter) are “Rock,” and on this rock I will build My Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
People would do well to look real carefully at this sentence. Let's break it down. First we see: "you are rock" referring to Peter. We then see: "and on this rock" which is in the feminine gender and can in no way refer to Peter, which takes the masculine form. This is an inviolable law of Greek grammar. There is nothing to indicate that the author intended to violate the laws of language here. So what is "this rock" referring to? For now, let's just leave that alone as only unsubstantiated responses seem to be forthcoming.

Next we see that upon that rock which we don't yet know what or who it could refer to, Christ is going to build his church. This is followed by: "and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it". While the papists have a vested interest in their supposed founder being the referent to Christ's "petra", those confined to the underworld aren't so eager to point out that this "petra" may be referring to them in the subsequent clause, e.g. "the gates of hell...etc.". As odd as this may sound, the reason is exactly the same as what is proposed by those who point out that these clauses follow one another. In other words, the first clause "You are rock" is followed by "and on this rock I will build my church" and the claim is that this second clause must refer to the first clause. So one could make the same argument that the third clause, "and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" is referring to the second clause. Obviously all clauses are related, but the point is that no one is looking at the last clause, nor at the fact that it is actually in reference to the first two clauses.


I will give you (Peter) the keys of the kingdom of heaven [mirroring “the gates of hell”].
While there is a correlation, your imagery is disturbing.

Further, there is no evidence, beyond the assertion itself, that the meanings of petros and petra are as distinct as Protestants argue. .
Then perhaps you might then attempt to focus on my argument instead. For all intents and purposes, the meanings are exactly the same. This is actually an integral part of my argument. They must be exactly the same meaning for my argument to be correct. You are making my argument for me AGAIN.
 

shnarkle

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No scholarly lexicon I have consulted, in particular neither the LSJ for Classical Greek nor the BDAG for Koine, supports the definiton of petros as merely a small rock or piece of rock. The words seem, rather, to be nearly synonymous. If there is a distinction between them at all, it is between petra, a great mass of rock, and petros, stone as a monumental building material — for building, say, a Church.
And AGAIN, I say, you are making my argument for me. Yes, they have the same effective meaning. This is why the grammatical issue is so obviously important. This is why the argument that the author couldn't have given Peter a feminine name is false. Note to those who are inevitably going to become instantly confused by this assertion: I'm not claiming that the author would have given Peter a feminine name, (e.g. Petrina, Patricia, etc.). I'm pointing out that the feminine form, e.g. "taute te petra" -on this rock- does not have to be written in the feminine form. It could just as easily have been written in the masculine form in order to agree with who it is referring to, i.e. the masculine ROCK a.k.a. Peter.

But most important: there are perfectly good reasons why Matthew used two different words here, Petros and petra: this was the only way to compose the statement so that it would make sense in Greek..
This is a baseless assertion which I just addressed and refuted AGAIN.

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1) Peter’s name in Greek is Petros, not Petra. Why didn’t they call him Petra in Greek? Because Petra is a feminine noun, and Peter is a male. By the time the Gospels were written, Petros had been his Greek name for decades..
AGAIN, someone doesn't seem to understand the argument as there is no need to give Peter a feminine suffix.

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2) Even supposing the Protestant argument about the different meanings of the words petros and petra were true .
It isn't true so it doesn't matter. The meanings are exactly the same. petros, petra, petrw ALL MEAN THE SAME THING. THEY ALL MEAN "ROCK". The only difference is the case which is irrelevant to this discussion.
(all evidence is that this is an anti-Catholic invention).
This is a baseless assertion and quite frankly a poor attempt at trolling.
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— Jesus wouldn’t have said “on this petros I will build my Church,”.
Quite true! It would have been written "tautw tw PETRW"
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to make the statement in Greek seem less ambiguous (to us),.
This is besides the point, and once again, a straw man argument. No one is attempting to show that the author needed to make the sentence less ambiguous. The gender is all that is needed to sufficiently and precisely point to what or who is being referred to. How do we know this? We know this because by the laws of elementary Greek grammar, articles and nouns must agree in their gender. The fact that it is so specific spotlights the fact that there is no need for it to seem less ambiguous.
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because that wasn’t what He meant. He meant “I will build my Church on this bedrock,” this unmovable foundation, not this piece of rock..
Thanks once again for making my point for me. Peter is not a piece of rock. Why? Because we both agree that the stone/rock argument is false. nor is he an immovable foundation. Why? Because he's a flake that doesn't know what he's talking about as is evidenced by the next scene where Christ Himself refers to him as "satan"; AND he denies, with curses; even knowing Christ.

3) Greek is an inflected language, meaning that the endings of words change depending on the grammatical function in which they are used. For example, πέτρος (petros), πέτρον (petron), and πετρῷ (petro) are all the very same word. So variations in the endings of words with the same stem seem quite natural to the Greek mind, and the difference between petros and petra would have seemed much less significant than it does to an English-speaker. In fact, this type of wordplay between similar-sounding words, called paronomasia, was common in ancient Greek.
Do you even comprehend what you're posting??? This is precisely why the wordplay works no matter how what words are used. They all mean the exact same thing. There is no need for "this rock" to take the feminine form!!!

4) Jesus wasn’t speaking Greek at all. Scholars are pretty certain that in His day-to-day life and teachings, Jesus spoke Aramaic. The Gospels quote Jesus in Aramaic for special dramatic emphasis: “Talitha cumi” (Mark 5:41), “Abba, Father” (Mark 14:36), “Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?” (Mark 15.34).
So if Jesus was speaking Aramaic, the words for Peter and Rock — Petros and petra — would have been the same word: Kepha (כיפא‎).
“You are Kepha and on this Kepha I will build my Church,” is what Jesus would have said....
And this is what is already written at the top of all of these posts as well. No one is denying what Jesus said. We are looking at the fact that it wasn't written that way in the Greek, and asking ourselves why would the author do this?????????????????????????

5) The Aramaic Kepha (כיפא‎) was rendered into Greek as Kephas (Κηφᾶς). Why didn’t Matthew just use that in both cases? Because it would have been as awkward as my sentence above, saying most of the sentence in Greek and a couple of words in Aramaic, and then having to explain it..
This is nonsense! There is no explanation necessary with any of the words as they all mean the same thing! You just pointed this out yourself !!! They look and sound the same. The wordplay works in both languages.
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Matthew’s readers apparently didn’t know Aramaic — or at least, if the book was originally written in Hebrew or Aramaic as some of the Church Fathers suggest, whoever translated it into Greek didn’t expect his readers would know Aramaic, and provided a crib for the Aramaic phrases..
Why are you doing this??? Yes, we understand that when an author is writing to Greek speaking people he isn't likely to write his letter in a language they don't know or understand. The author wrote this letter in Greek because he intended it for Greek speaking people to read it. Given your assumption that this is a translation from Aramaic, the glaringly obvious question becomes: Why would the author IGNORE the seamless flow of these words and instead write "this rock" in the feminine form when there Is no reason to do so in the first place? He could just as easily have written it in the masculine in order for it to EXPLICITLY refer to Peter.

“. . . I think...<snip>....
Not really interested in baseless opinions that have no bearing on the point of this discussion.
What would be nice is for you to address the issue of why the author chose to ignore your interpretation altogether. Your blatant attempts at obfuscation are becoming tiresome. If you have nothing to advance this discussion, then perhaps a break would nice. Maybe some time will inspire you to come up with some better schemes than these.
I don't really have any skin in this game so I would rather just look at the text, as well as any other clues that could possibly shed light on what this could mean. One clue could be this: "When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi...etc." (vs.13)
Does anyone want to hazard a guess where this might be? Is it really all that important that this statement be written at all? Does it really matter that Jesus came to the coasts of Caesarea Philippi? Couldn't it be anywhere? I mean what's in Caesarea Philippi that you can't find anywhere else in the world?????
 
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