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Featured Was Pharaoh under the sovereign control of God?

Discussion in 'Christian Debate Forum' started by shnarkle, Jul 30, 2019.

  1. Waiting on him

    Waiting on him Well-Known Member

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    I’d also like to say, your blessed because no man could have revealed this to you.
     
  2. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Well-Known Member

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    Perfect.

    2 Corinthians 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2019
  3. Anthony D'Arienzo

    Anthony D'Arienzo Well-Known Member

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    God is never responsible for mans sin...never.
    He ordained whatsoever comes to pass.
     
  4. shnarkle

    shnarkle Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for posting that. I've never noticed it before, although the idea does seem to be obvious in my posts already. It must have slipped in subconsciously.
     
  5. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    Amen, God simply used Pharaoh's established evil ways [by his own choices] to accomplish the purposes of God in Egypt with the Hebrews! This is the left hand of God at work. We should rather be working for and with the Right hand of God.
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2019
  6. Ernest T. Bass

    Ernest T. Bass Well-Known Member

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    How can God cause men to sin against their will yet God holds no culpability for the sin He caused men to do? You have not yet explained this conundrum you have created.

    No verse says God has ordained all that comes to pass.

    In the parable of the talents, (Matthew 25) the man with one talent tried to blame God, [calling God a 'hard man'], for his own choice in burying his talent. According to you if God ordains all that comes to pass, then the one talent man was right and just in putting the blame on God. "His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant,"....how could God justly, rightly condemn this man as being wicked and slothful if God ordained him to be wicked and slothful against the man's will?

    " thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed". God's point here is even if the one talent man knew God was a 'hard man' and then why did he not strive harder to please God to avoid punishment. Yet if God 'ordains all that comes to pass' that means God ordained this man where he would be slothful unable to strive harder. But then God condemns this man for being the slothful man God caused him to be.

    Yet the facts are that it was a false charge for the man with one talent to blame God for what God had not done, therefore he was cast into outer darkness.
     
  7. Ernest T. Bass

    Ernest T. Bass Well-Known Member

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    There is no verse that says Christ chooses who will or will not be Christians. John 15:16 refers to Christ choosing who would hold the office of an Apostle, John 6:70; John 13:18

    =====

    Ezekiel 18:31 men are to create a new heart within themselves. Hence men are told to "save yourselves" (Acts of the Apostles 2:40), 'save thyself' (1 Timothy 4:16), 'cleanse ourselves' (2 Corinthians 7:1), etc, etc.

    Yet man cannot save himself by himself - man cannot create a new heart in himself by himself, but man saves himself - creates a new heart in himself by choosing to obey God's will.

    Those then that obey God by repenting and turning to God (Acts of the Apostles 26:20), those that obey by casting away their transgressions (Ezekiel 18:31), then God saves them, God has created a new heart in them as seen by their new repentant, obedient behaviour.
     
  8. shnarkle

    shnarkle Well-Known Member

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    It's ironic that so many people don't notice God's own description of himself as one who reaps where he hasn't sown. Anyone know people who do that? It's called theft, and it isn't exactly something one would equate with righteousness or justice.

    God creates humanity with free will. That's a Given, but once humanity makes one bad decision, they're lost, and nothing they do or will to do is going to get them back on the right track. Why? Because they're completely lost. Paul points this out over and over. We might as well will ourselves to fly to Pluto.

    Therefore, it is God who must supply a lamb for sacrifice. These archetypes are pervasive throughout the bible. The most notable being Abraham sacrificing his own son. The message is that God provides the sacrifice. God makes everything right again because he's the only one who can. God takes responsibility.

    The assumption is that our free will is sufficient to justify God's condemnation, but we can't choose what can't be known in the first place. God must reveal his kingdom in order for us to choose it. The paradox is that we can't see it until we see that we're blind. Until we become aware of how desperately wicked we truly are, we will never be able to receive the gift of repentance and enter into the kingdom. We are already condemned by our own inability to see who we really are.

    Adam essentially chose to live in a virtual reality rather than actual reality. We're no different, and continue to look for additional ways to escape reality as well.

    Ultimately, it doesn't matter because it isn't real to begin with. It's just an illusion; a self deception.
     
  9. Anthony D'Arienzo

    Anthony D'Arienzo Well-Known Member

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    God does not cause or make men sin.
    They sin because they love to sin.
     
  10. Ernest T. Bass

    Ernest T. Bass Well-Known Member

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    If God ordains all that comes to pass that means God has ordained men to sin. Can men thwart what God has ordained to come to pass? No, then God is making men to sin.

    Did God ordain the man with one talent to bury his talent?
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2019
  11. shnarkle

    shnarkle Well-Known Member

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    A distinction with no effective difference

    =====

    Ezekiel also points out that it is God Who places this new heart into Israel and Judah (Jeremiah 31:31-34; Ezekiel 11:19; 36:26; Hebrews 8:9,10)

    Paul also points out that the carnal mind is enmity against God. It quite simply wouldn't do anything to please God if it could. There is nothing it can do that will ever please God. (see Romans 8:3-10)

    That faith is Christ's and without it, there can be no salvation. Paul points out that the Old testament Hebrew scriptures provide us with a potent example of how completely useless our will and efforts truly are. All of that hard work didn't produce a grain of faith in anyone.

    It is only by Christ's faith that anyone can be saved. As he says, "Apart from me you can do nothing". Apart from Christ, you are doing nothing quite effectively.
     
  12. Ernest T. Bass

    Ernest T. Bass Well-Known Member

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    God is not saying He is a hard man, but is making the point that if the one talented man "knew" God was a hard man then why didn't he try harder and do more to please his Lord and avoid punishment.

    The issue is, if God ordains all that comes to pass, then who is culpable for the man burying his one talent?

    Man can repent of his sins and God said He would forgive.

    God provided Christ and those wo obey Christ are the ones Christ saves Hebrews 5:9

    God has, through inspiration, revealed His word to men with that word telling man all he needs to know in how to be saved. Man can read and understand that word, Ephesians 3


    Philosophy.
     
  13. Anthony D'Arienzo

    Anthony D'Arienzo Well-Known Member

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    Natural man cannot welcome the things of God.1cor2:14
    He cannot, unless given a new heart at regeneration.
     
  14. shnarkle

    shnarkle Well-Known Member

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    Neither am I.

    No, the point is that God reaps where he hasn't sown, and if you're going to follow God, you're going to have to learn how to do that instead of working your tail off for the rest of your life and getting NOTHING in return. Blow off false work and slack off. That's the message. Life is not meant to be immersed in pointless toil. Life is a gift to be enjoyed in, with, and through God which can only result in an overabundance of God's gifts, blessings, fruit, etc.

    No. The issue is in noting that it is God Who provides the talent in the first place, and God makes it grow. If you think you can make anything grow, you're going to get the same result by burying it in yourself.



    God doesn't need to forgive because God isn't offended. Again, repentance is a gift that can only be given to those who are capable of receiving it. Lazarus can't hear Christ's call unless and until God gives him the ears to hear his calling.

    God provides the way, but Christ is the way, and no one else. There is only the way. There is only Christ. The rest is pure deception.

    No doubt, but then understanding is not fundamental; faith is. Knowing how isn't enough. The kingdom doesn't come by understanding. Understanding comes by faith. Faith seeks understanding, then one understands their faith.
     
  15. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    Where did you come up with these unbiblical ideas? God is deeply offended by sin and since He commands all men everywhere to repent, repentance is NOT a gift.

    I believe you are sowing seeds of spiritual confusion on this forum, and that is a serious offence against God.
     
  16. Ernest T. Bass

    Ernest T. Bass Well-Known Member

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    There is a night and day difference between choosing if someone to be saved or not and choosing one to be an Apostle.

    =====


    So there is a sense in which God creates a new heart in man and man creates a new heart in himself. So creating a new heart in man is not something that happens independently of what God or man does, that is, it takes BOTH God AND man for man to have a new heart. It takes God to tell man what he needs to do to have a new heart and it takes man doing what God tells him.

    Ezekiel 36:
    25 - Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
    26 - A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.


    verse 25 ye shall be clean speaks of total forgiveness of sins.
    verse 26 a new heart I will give you speaks of regeneration

    This foretells of the new birth (John 3:5) something they did not have under the OT law. And the new birth requires BOTH Spirit AND water. The Spirit's role is HIs written word which instructs men in how to be born again and the role of water baptism is man's role in the new birth in obeying God in submitting to water baptism. Just as having a new heart requires BOTH God AND MAN, God telling man what to do and man doing what God said to do.


    Man must develop his own personal faith in his own heart to be saved, Romans 10:9-10.....if YOU believe in YOUR heart.

    John 15:5 "....without me ye can do nothing." This means man cannot make himself righteous apart from Christ. Jesus was the only perfectly righteous person to be on earth therefore man must be in Christ. When man obeys by submitting to water baptism then one is put in Christ, clothed in Christ perfect righteousness (Galatians 3:27) whereby one is "perfect in Christ Jesus" (Colossians 1:28). So it is true, apart from Christ man can never be perfect as he must be in order to be saved, the branch (man) must be part of the Vine (Christ).
     
  17. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    That is not the same thing as sinners hearing the Gospel and being convicted and convinced under the power of the Holy Spirit.

    The false teaching of Calvinism is that "elect" sinners are FIRST regenerated, then believe because of so-called "irresistible grace". That is putting the cart before the horse.
     
  18. Ernest T. Bass

    Ernest T. Bass Well-Known Member

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    You did post in post #68 "It's ironic that so many people don't notice God's own description of himself as one who reaps where he hasn't sown..."

    Are you making God a hard man by saying God reaps what He has not sown?

    I do not agree that God is hard man in reaping what He has not sown. The point in the parable was the one talent man thought-knew God was a hard man. If he 'knew' God was a hard man then he knew he should have striven even harder to please his Lord. God is not a hard man (1 John 5:3) but even if He was a hard man that still does not excuse man in doing his duty in obeying God, Ecclesiastes 12:13.

    But this is not the reason I brought that parable up. The issue is if God ordains all that happens, then who is culpable for the one talented man for burying his talent? If you say that man was culpable, then how can he be culpable for what God made him do against his will?


    No, the issue is who is culpable. Aqain, another poster made the statement that God ordains all that comes to pass. If that were true, then God ordained, made, caused, forced that man to bury his one talent.




    I don't know where you get that idea from. Men sin against God (Psalms 51:4) and sin is the reason men are lost so men have to have forgiveness of that sin if man is to be saved.


    I agree that Christ is the only way to be saved, but who does Christ save? Them that obey Him Hebrews 5:9.


    Understanding is a very fundamental thing men can do. Men can watch tv programs and understand what is going on. Men can understand novels, newspapers, magazines, so there is no reason a man cannot understand what the Bible says.

    One must have faith in what he understands so understanding must come before faith...faith comes by hearing the word of God (Romans 10:17)....one must first hear/understand then faith comes.
     
  19. Ernest T. Bass

    Ernest T. Bass Well-Known Member

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    In that context, God is not making a contrast between the 'regenerate" versus the "unregenerate" but is contrasting man's understanding verses God's understanding.

    1 Corinthians 2:11 you do not know what is in my mind unless I reveal it to you. Nor do I know what is in your mind unless you tell me. You nor I know what is in the mind of God unless He reveals it to us.

    And God did reveal His mind to us in that God selected certain men ("spiritual men") and miraculously endowed them with inspiration so those men could receive "words" (1 Corinthians 2:13) from the Holy Spirit, those inspired men were taught "words". Those inspired, spiritual men, as Paul, wrote those revealed, inspired words down so the natural man can read and understand them, Ephesians 3:3-4.

    1 Corinthians 2:14 "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

    From the context we know that the natural man:

    1) has no Divine, supernatural inspiration from the Holy Spirit to access the mind of God as the inspired writers did (spiritual men).
    2) the natural man's knowledge is therefore limited to things of the world/wisdom of man

    So the natural man here would be as those Greek philosophers, they had no Divine inspiration and their knowledge was limited to things of the world/wisdom of man.

    Therefore when they hear the gospel, they judge it to be foolishness for they are judging it according to the wisdom of world/men.

    Two points:

    1) for them to judge the things of God as "foolishness" implies they had to first understand it to then pass judgment upon it. Therefore they are NOT totally depraved to the point to where they cannot understand it, but instead they DO UNDERSTAND it and since they are limited to wisdom of men, it therefore is judged as "foolishness" to them. Stephens' lost "unregenerate" audience in Acts 7 did not kill Stephen because they did not understand what he preached. But instead they killed Stephen for they DID understand what he preached, hated what he preached therefore killed him.

    2) to know the mind/things of God requires willingness on the part of man (John 7:17). Studying and searching of God's word to learn it and have knowledge of it is required. These natural men, as those Greek philosophers, are not willing - they are not going to take the time to search and study God's word in order for them to know it (spiritually discern it). So the natural man in the context is the man unwilling to know the mind of God by studying God's word.

    Therefore 'regeneration' is not some miraculous act required by God to perform upon men to 'enable' men to understand, believe His word. If such were the case, then how does God determine whom He will or will not "regenerate"? God would then become a 'respecter of persons' in "regenerating" one man but not another.

    But regeneration takes place when one of his own will choose to submit to water baptism THEN one walks in newness of life, Romans 6:1-6
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2019
  20. shnarkle

    shnarkle Well-Known Member

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    I don't know why you keep assuming that I think "God is hard man". This is a Strawman argument. i even explained my meaning, but evidently this is irrelevant.
     
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