Was Pharaoh under the sovereign control of God?

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aspen

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Why should the Pharaoh be different than every other person on the planet?
 
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Enoch111

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If it isn't predestined, then it can't be foreknown.
That is TOTAL BALONEY. Let's say God already knows that you will try to rob a bank tomorrow. Did He predestine that or was it your own evil plot?
 

Enoch111

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No it is not possible for man to thwart God's intent.
You won't find that in Scripture. Quite the opposite, starting with Adam.

ACTS 7
51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept
it.

Both logically and biblically, every Jew should have repented for the remission of sins,received the baptism of John, and believed on Yeshua ha Mashiach (Jesus the Christ). Israel was an ELECT NATION and it was God Himself who elected it. Yet, the record shows that the majority were unbelieving, and therefore God brought judgment upon Israel. You cannot possibly suggest that God planned for them to reject their Messiah. Which means that they resisted the Holy Spirit. Which means they thwarted God's intent.
 

Stranger

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You won't find that in Scripture. Quite the opposite, starting with Adam.

ACTS 7
51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept
it.

Both logically and biblically, every Jew should have repented for the remission of sins,received the baptism of John, and believed on Yeshua ha Mashiach (Jesus the Christ). Israel was an ELECT NATION and it was God Himself who elected it. Yet, the record shows that the majority were unbelieving, and therefore God brought judgment upon Israel. You cannot possibly suggest that God planned for them to reject their Messiah. Which means that they resisted the Holy Spirit. Which means they thwarted God's intent.

Adam and Eve did not thwart God's intent

Both they and Israel rebelled against God. They did not thwart His intent.

The fall was part of the plan of God. Israel's rejection of their Messiah was part of the plan of God. Are they responsible? Yes. But they did not thwart God's plan.

God acts. He never reacts.

Stranger
 

aspen

“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
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God is not sadistic

He doesn’t set his children up to fail so they can live a life of pain and misery just so he can murder his son and bring us back into the fold. Jeez he not some volcano god - I treat my dog better than that
 
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Stranger

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God is not sadistic

He doesn’t set his children up to fail so they can live a life of pain and misery just so he can murder his son and bring us back into the fold. Jeez he not some volcano god - I treat my dog better than that

Actually your's is a volcano god. He is of your own creation dependent on your good works to your 'fellow man'.

Oh you are nice to your dog? How sweet. Touching, of course. I guess that is supposed to mean something. That you are a good man? You see and serve only the outside. (Pro. 12:10) "A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel."

God is responsible for the death of Christ. Yet you call it murder. But...you love your dog.

Stranger
 

shnarkle

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Why should the Pharaoh be different than every other person on the planet?
He's not. If God can promise some general plan of salvation, he can save each individual as well. Paul says that those whom God foreknew, not some undefined composite of humanity he foreknew.
 
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Enoch111

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Both they and Israel rebelled against God. They did not thwart His intent.
1. Was it God's intent that all of Israel should be saved? Absolutely.

2. Did all Israel get saved? Absolutely not.

Indeed here is what Christ said to Jerusalem -- the heart of Israel:
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! (Mt 23:37).

This is not a question of God reacting, but God allowing men to choose Christ or not. God will have all men to be saved and to come unto the knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:4). Indeed God commands all men everywhere to repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. But He expects men to either obey the Gospel or disobey the Gospel, since He has given man free will.
 
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Stranger

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He's not. If God can promise some general plan of salvation, he can save each individual as well. Paul says that those whom God foreknew, not some undefined composite of humanity he foreknew.

Pharaoh is no different than any other vessel of dishonor. He is different than any other vessel of honor.

Stranger
 

Stranger

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1. Was it God's intent that all of Israel should be saved? Absolutely.

2. Did all Israel get saved? Absolutely not.

Indeed here is what Christ said to Jerusalem -- the heart of Israel:
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! (Mt 23:37).

This is not a question of God reacting, but God allowing men to choose Christ or not. God will have all men to be saved and to come unto the knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:4). Indeed God commands all men everywhere to repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. But He expects men to either obey the Gospel or disobey the Gospel, since He has given man free will.

Yes it was and is God's intent that all Israel shall be saved. And all Israel shall be saved. The Israelite is the believing Israelite. The unbelieving Jew is not an Israelite. (Rom. 9:6-7)

Of course God allows the will of man to be exercised. And men obey and disobey God in exercising that will. But God's will, God's intent, is always done. God can weave His will, in and out among fallen mankind's will, be it obey or disobey, so that His will is always done.

Was Christ's death not the will of God? Yet it was done through evil wicked men. Wicked men did not thwart the intent of God. They were disobedient to God, yet played into the hand of God. He is God. He does things like that.

Stranger
 

aspen

“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
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Actually your's is a volcano god. He is of your own creation dependent on your good works to your 'fellow man'.

Oh you are nice to your dog? How sweet. Touching, of course. I guess that is supposed to mean something. That you are a good man? You see and serve only the outside. (Pro. 12:10) "A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel."

God is responsible for the death of Christ. Yet you call it murder. But...you love your dog.

Stranger

You’re such a tough guy, Stranger...
You’ve got the whole board quaking
 

aspen

“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
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You're such a 'good man'. The whole board is envious.

Stranger

Nah, just you are. But that’s ok.....just give up your racism and reach out to Jesus and you will be golden
 

Stranger

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Nah, just you are. But that’s ok.....just give up your racism and reach out to Jesus and you will be golden

Here I sit on the back row pounding my chest. Ah yes. To be like 'golden aspen'.

Stranger
 
B

brakelite

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Is it possible for sinful or even righteous man to thwart God's declared intent?
KJV Numbers 14

11 And the LORD said unto Moses, How long will this people provoke me? and how long will it be ere they believe me, for all the signs which I have shewed among them?

12 I will smite them with the pestilence, and disinherit them, and will make of thee a greater nation and mightier than they.
13 And Moses said unto the LORD, Then the Egyptians shall hear it, (for thou broughtest up this people in thy might from among them;)
14 And they will tell it to the inhabitants of this land: for they have heard that thou LORD art among this people, that thou LORD art seen face to face, and that thy cloud standeth over them, and that thou goest before them, by day time in a pillar of a cloud, and in a pillar of fire by night.
15 Now if thou shalt kill all this people as one man, then the nations which have heard the fame of thee will speak, saying,
16 Because the LORD was not able to bring this people into the land which he sware unto them, therefore he hath slain them in the wilderness.
17 And now, I beseech thee, let the power of my Lord be great, according as thou hast spoken, saying,
18 The LORD is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.
19 Pardon, I beseech thee, the iniquity of this people according unto the greatness of thy mercy, and as thou hast forgiven this people, from Egypt even until now.
20 And the LORD said, I have pardoned according to thy word:
 

shnarkle

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You’re such a tough guy, Stranger...
You’ve got the whole board quaking
After someone pointed out the "ignore" button, I looked through the most annoying responses to my posts and in no time, the triggered trolls were all gone. I just realized with your post that, for the most part, the triggered trolls all seem to post to each other which is why up until this post, I haven't heard a peep from any of them.

It has also confirmed for me the fact that hell is not some place of torture where the saved are able to see and hear from the other side of some gulf. If anyone wants to hear the cries of the damned, then God would be more than happy to place them in there with them.

Hit that "ignore" button for the trolls, and I'm sure you'll agree, the quality of your posts will improve significantly; mine did. It's like banishing them to their own private hell where they're free to torment themselves and others, and leave everyone else in peace.
 
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GodsGrace

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Did God raise up Pharaoh for the wrong purpose, or was magnifying his own glory a sufficient purpose for raising up Pharaoh? (Romans 9:17)

How is is possible for Pharaoh to have repented and allowed Israel to depart in peace, if he was raised up for this purpose?

God actively hardened Pharaoh's heart that he might judge e.g. "lay his hand upon" Egypt. Could Pharaoh have overcome God's hardening of his heart? How?

Quote:
The king's heart is in the hands of the LORD, as the rivers of water, he turns it whithersoever he will Proverbs 21:1


There is no question that Pharaoh hardened his own heart as is indicated in Ex. 8:15,32. Pharaoh is a responsible moral agent, but this doesn't answer the question of whether or not it was possible for Pharaoh to soften his own heart and repent despite God's will?

If Pharoah had repented of his sins and turned Israel free, how could God's word have been fulfilled?

Is it possible for sinful or even righteous man to thwart God's declared intent?

If he did this to Pharaoh, why wouldn't he do it to the rest of rebellious humanity?
Which of God's word was to be fulfilled by hardening Pharaoh's heart?
See highlighted by me above.