Was the Cross Always Understood?

[Lambano]

I note that in Peter's Pentecost sermon, the significant event was the Resurrection, not the Crucifixion. I think interpreting the Crucifixion as modeled by the Levitical sacrifices was a later theological development (or revelation?) as believers had to address the question of why Messiah had to suffer such a humiliating and excruciating (Latin pun intentional) death at the hands of His enemies.

“I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me." Galatians 2:20

 

[BeforeThereWas]

I just gave you scriptures….Are you arguing with God or the Bible?
Grace is not a license to sin...
2nd Corinthians :5:10: For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad..

Matthew 18:9 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire.

So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; Philippians 2:12

1st Corinthians 6:9-10 “Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor those habitually drunk, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God”

Galatians 5:19-21 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: sexual immorality, impurity, indecent behavior, idolatry, witchcraft, hostilities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Ephesians 5:3-5 But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God’s holy people. Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving. For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a person is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Hebrews 10:26-31 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Matthew 7:21 Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

You really just don't get it, do you? I'm arguing with you and your misapplication of scripture. You keep throwing in lies about what I ever said, and that doe nothing but poison the well of discussion. You don't seem willing to remain honest about what I ever said, which was never about having license to sin.

BTW

 

[BeforeThereWas]

Was the Cross Always Understood?​

It's all about the Blood!

Perhaps this will answer that:

Mark 9:31-32
31 For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day.
32 But they understood not that saying, and were afraid to ask him.

Luke 9:44-45
44 Let these sayings sink down into your ears: for the Son of man shall be delivered into the hands of men.
45 But they understood not this saying, and it was hid from them, that they perceived it not: and they feared to ask him of that saying.

Given that it was hid from them, that speaks loud volumes the answer to your question. The ancients only knew of His suffering and death, but they did not understand the full implications and the power of the cross itself. My upbringing in Judaism as an Israeli would have picked up on something that supports the foolish cliché's of Evangelicalism where they claim that all people throughout all time have looked and will look to the cross. We have always looked forward to a powerful political and military leader to deliver us from our perpetual enemies. The prophets did not understand the full extent and wonder of the cross and so it makes sense that it was also hidden from His own disciples. We always knew Messiah was coming to deliver us, but the intricacies in that deliverance remained a mystery even to the angels:

1 Peter 1:11-12
11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

So, when people put "cross" into what the ancients looked forward to, that lends to the assumption that the ancients and the angels understood the full extent of what the suffering of Messiah would entail, and that simply wasn't possible. When Luke 9 states that it was hid from them, it seems reasonable to say that it was and is indeed true.

BTW

 

[Jack]

Hebrews 9:22
22 And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission.

 

[quietthinker]

Was the Cross Always Understood?​

If you haven't seen this, you need to see it
If you could care less, you need to see it
if you are busy with other stuff, you need to see it
if you have seen it, you need to see it again.

 

[BeforeThereWas]

Do you see a license there to do as we please….? Did Jesus? Absolutely not…..but he did the will of his Father in all things, showing us that salvation needs qualifications…we cannot be willful sinners and take Christ’s sacrifice for granted just because we “believe”.

I'm mystified as to why anyone would think that our eternal salvation on the basis of Paul's Gospel leads to some sort of "license" to sin.

Pray tell, when did you or anyone else here ever stop sinning after believing the Gospel? You see, the accusation of "license" is nothing but a poisoning of the wells of discussion because it accuses others of believing and saying such a thing.

Romans 8:31-39
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

So, one either believes what scripture says without trying to pit scripture against itself, or we believe what is stated:

2 Timothy 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

Look at Paul:

Romans 7:18-25
18 For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

So, those who think they can lose their salvation after truly believing 1 Cor. 15:1-4, they are self-righteous, therefore relying upon their own alleged goodness to retain what could never be earned and certainly cannot be retained by that false standard. Who among you have stopped sinning? Who here is without sin at any point in his or her life. We are JUSTIFIED by way of the shed Blood of Christ. The bloodless ceremony of the largest religion in the world is meaningless trash, just as was Abel's bloodless sacrifice of vegetation the Lord rejected.

So, those who think that there is any merit in their attempts at even "qualifications," go for it, for in the end many will learn about their follies in that false doctrine. Everlasting salvation is indeed very real, with separation not at all being a power able to separate us from the love of God and from Christ and the salvation. Nobody can define that imaginary line into the alleged loss of salvation. Nobody. I've asked time after time for the salvation-loss gangs to define that line, and they ALL shied away from that challenge in the cowardice they have about their own beliefs. Where does scripture discuss becoming UNborn again, UNsealed by Holy Spirit and the removal of salvation, which would be the Father forfeiting His own Spirit? Seriously? That some don't see the totality in the perfect Power of God unto our salvation, His sealing of us and His EARNEST of His own Spirit...

It speaks for itself, and the questions asked of the salvation-loss gangs have remained fruitless because of their bent upon trying to pit the word of God against itself coupled with the habitual practice of injecting "salvation" into contexts where it clearly doesn't belong.

BTW

 

[Behold]

Are you serious about your Final answer?
This:

Final answer.. = Every Christian is 'in Christ......."one wtih God", "seated in Heavenly places"......so, if you have sin, you are not "in Christ" or "one with God" or in the KOG... ("Seated in Heavenly places").......because to be there, you have to be sinless... = '"made rightoues".

Or are you being sarcastic?

Every Christian is ..

1.) "One with God"

2.) "Seated in Heavenly places In Christ'

3.) "In Christ"

4.) "The Temple of the Holy Spirit"

5.) "The righteousness of God, in Christ"

6.) "made righteous"

7.) "Heir of God"

8.) "Joint heir with Jesus"

9.) "Born again"

10.) "Translated from darkness........TO Light"

11.) "Children of The Light"

12.) "A Saint".

13.) "Forgiven".

 

[Grailhunter]

You really just don't get it, do you? I'm arguing with you and your misapplication of scripture. You keep throwing in lies about what I ever said, and that doe nothing but poison the well of discussion. You don't seem willing to remain honest about what I ever said, which was never about having license to sin.

BTW

LOL
How can you be arguing with me when I just gave you scripture?
You want more? Or will you hate that too.
What you believe is wrong, evil, and just plain does not make any sense.
Yeshua is not the God of immorality. And Heaven is not the destination of the immoral. Remember to tell them to pack the barbeque sauce in your casket, you will be needing it.

 

[BreadOfLife]

The only "anti" flowing in my thoughts are against the false teachings themselves within the RCC system of theology about such things as the sinlessness of Mary in her birth and allegedly remaining a virgin, et al. The evolution of RCC doctrines through the centuries is testament enough to the falsehoods therein. As an Israeli, I'm simply observing these facts and many more that happen to align with many Protestant beliefs about the same optic. I don't have you personally, but I do hate falsehoods.

BTW

WRONG.

An Anti-Catholic by definition is one who invents or relays fairy tales and lies about the Catholic Church in order to advance a biased agenda. This is precisely what you have done, so YOU are indeed an anti-Catholic.

In Post #62 - YOU stated the following:
“According to the RCC, Jesus is still angry, allegedly needing Mary to calm Him down, as unbelievable as that is...”

This is a blatant LIE which is exactly what YOU are accusing the Church of doing – and a textbook case of hypocrisy. So, instead of listing another slew of baseless attacks to – why don’t you just tell us where you got your flawed information?

PS - since you hate falsehoods - prove the false doctrine of Sola Scriptura using the Bible alone . . .

 

[GodsGrace]

peter and most likely the rest of the original disciples of Jesus did understand before Paul certainly please read;

Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures? read from Luke24:13-35 for full context

also in Acts 2 Peter was already preaching the cross to jews and gentiles alike;

Act 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
Act 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
Act 2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
Act 2:25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
Act 2:26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
Act 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Act 2:28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
Act 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
Act 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
Act 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
Act 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
Act 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Act 2:35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Act 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto
them about three thousand souls.

Blessings

I don't understand what the above verses have to do with what I posted.

 

[GodsGrace]

Every Christian is ..

1.) "One with God"

2.) "Seated in Heavenly places In Christ'

3.) "In Christ"

4.) "The Temple of the Holy Spirit"

5.) "The righteousness of God, in Christ"

6.) "made righteous"

7.) "Heir of God"

8.) "Joint heir with Jesus"

9.) "Born again"

10.) "Translated from darkness........TO Light"

11.) "Children of The Light"

12.) "A Saint".

13.) "Forgiven".

I was referring to your statement that if a person is IN CHRIST he has to be sinless.

Here it your statement again:


Final answer.. = Every Christian is 'in Christ......."one wtih God", "seated in Heavenly places"......so, if you have sin, you are not "in Christ" or "one with God" or in the KOG... ("Seated in Heavenly places").......because to be there, you have to be sinless... = '"made rightoues".


This is most confusing because of your posts stating that obedience to God is not even necessary....
that once we are saved we can never lose that salvation...
and that our behavior has nothing to do with our salvation.

So are you saying that:
1. A person that is IN CHRIST is UNABLE to sin?
or
2. Are you saying that a person IN CHRIST SHOULD NOT sin?

Because what I've heard from you till now is that a person IN CHRIST will always remain in Christ and he cannot fall away.

 

[GodsGrace]

This is a complete and total LIE.
Where did you get this nonsense?

Proof positive that ignorant abti-Cathoics will pull anythig out of their nether-regions and declare it as "fact" - if they think they can get away with it . . .

I am STILL waiting for @BeforeThereWas to present authoratative written confirmation that the CC teaches the blasphemy he has stated regarding Mary and God being angry.

I'm sure that since he makes such outrageous statements....
he will surely be able to post the document from which he learned this ridiculous idea.

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm mystified as to why anyone would think that our eternal salvation on the basis of Paul's Gospel leads to some sort of "license" to sin.

Pray tell, when did you or anyone else here ever stop sinning after believing the Gospel? You see, the accusation of "license" is nothing but a poisoning of the wells of discussion because it accuses others of believing and saying such a thing.

Romans 8:31-39
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

So, one either believes what scripture says without trying to pit scripture against itself, or we believe what is stated:

2 Timothy 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

Look at Paul:

Romans 7:18-25
18 For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

So, those who think they can lose their salvation after truly believing 1 Cor. 15:1-4, they are self-righteous, therefore relying upon their own alleged goodness to retain what could never be earned and certainly cannot be retained by that false standard. Who among you have stopped sinning? Who here is without sin at any point in his or her life. We are JUSTIFIED by way of the shed Blood of Christ. The bloodless ceremony of the largest religion in the world is meaningless trash, just as was Abel's bloodless sacrifice of vegetation the Lord rejected.

So, those who think that there is any merit in their attempts at even "qualifications," go for it, for in the end many will learn about their follies in that false doctrine. Everlasting salvation is indeed very real, with separation not at all being a power able to separate us from the love of God and from Christ and the salvation. Nobody can define that imaginary line into the alleged loss of salvation. Nobody. I've asked time after time for the salvation-loss gangs to define that line, and they ALL shied away from that challenge in the cowardice they have about their own beliefs. Where does scripture discuss becoming UNborn again, UNsealed by Holy Spirit and the removal of salvation, which would be the Father forfeiting His own Spirit? Seriously? That some don't see the totality in the perfect Power of God unto our salvation, His sealing of us and His EARNEST of His own Spirit...

It speaks for itself, and the questions asked of the salvation-loss gangs have remained fruitless because of their bent upon trying to pit the word of God against itself coupled with the habitual practice of injecting "salvation" into contexts where it clearly doesn't belong.

BTW

Before,,,,
I'm still waiting for you to supply support for your blasphemy against God Almighty.

In the meantime,,,it matters not what YOU or anybody believes about OSAS.
It's a heretical belief found nowhere in the bible, either the OT or the NT.

It's a teaching that did not exist in the early church but came about at the Reformation in the 1500's and later spread to more denominations as Easy Believism and Cheap Grace in about the 1800's.

Unborn again and Unsealed again are nonsense ideas put forth by you.

The NT is full of warnings by all the writers, including Jesus Himself.

John 15:2 kills any idea you may have of the impossibility of losing our salvation.
JESUS stated that if we do not do produce fruit we will be cut off from the vine.
Paul stated the same.

So should we believe you or Jesus and Paul?

John 15:2 Jesus taught
2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away;

Please note that the branch is IN JESUS.....it represents a saved person.
The saved person, IN JESUS, that does NOT bear fruit will be taken away.
A person that does not do good works for the Kingdom of God on earth,,,is useless to the Kingdom.
James 2:20
20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?


Romans 2:6-8 Paul taught
God,
6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.

We will be judged by our deeds. Those who do good, eternal life.

 

[LoveYeshua]

I don't understand what the above verses have to do with what I posted.

this is NOT correct you wrote"The Apostles did not put everything that happened together until Paul came on the scene." they knew everything before Paul did. Scripture proves it.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Well, if you had anything of substance besides mere antagonistic criticism to prove otherwise, I'm sure you would have presented it. The silence speaks for itself...

BTW

The Bible indeed warns us that we can fall away and LOSE our secure position if we do NOT remain in Christ:

Romans 11:22
“See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you REMAIN in his kindness; otherwise you to will be cut off.”
Paul is warning the faithful to REMAIN in God’s favor or they will lose their salvation. How can they lose what they never had?

Hebrews 10:26-27
“If we sin deliberately AFTER receiving KNOWLEDGE of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”
This is a clear warning that falling away from God will result in the loss of our salvation. The Greek ford for “knowledge” used here is NOT the usual word (oida). This is talking about a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei). This verse is about CHRISTIANS who had an EPIGNOSIS of Christ and who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

2 Peter 2:20-22
For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the KNOWLEDGE of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.
For it would have been better for them not to have KNOWN the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.
Here, Peter illustrates that those who had a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei) of Christ – CHRISTIANS – who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

Matt. 5:13
You are the salt of the earth. But if salt loses its taste, with what can it be seasoned? It is no longer good for anything but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.
This one is self-explanatory . . .

1 Cor. 9:27
"I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified."
Paul is saying that he wrestles with his own fleshly desires so that he might not fall back into sin.

2 Peter 3:17
Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.
Peter is warning the faithful not to fall back into sin and lawlessness.

1 John 2:24
See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. IF it does, you also will REMAIN in the Son and in the Father.
This is an admonition to try to remain faithful.

Rev. 3:5
He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.
God cannot blot out a name that was never there in the first place. He is talking about CHRISTIANS who are already saved and how they can LOSE their salvation.

Rev. 22:19
And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
How can God “take away” somebody’s “share” of heaven if they never had it to begin with? This is about CHRISTIANS who may or may NOT make it into Heaven.

 

[GodsGrace]

this is NOT correct you wrote"The Apostles did not put everything that happened together until Paul came on the scene." they knew everything before Paul did. Scripture proves it.

I stand by what I stated.
The Apostles understood what Jesus had done after His death.
However, it was Paul that gathered all the teachings and created what is commonly known as
Christian Theology, especially in the letter to the Romans.
For instance, I don't believe the Apostles taught the idea of salvation by grace through faith.
NT Wright wrote a book about this.
I'll see if I could find anything on YouTube about it.

Found it:

 

[LoveYeshua]

I stand by what I stated.
The Apostles understood what Jesus had done after His death.
However, it was Paul that gathered all the teachings and created what is commonly known as
Christian Theology, especially in the letter to the Romans.
For instance, I don't believe the Apostles taught the idea of salvation by grace through faith.
NT Wright wrote a book about this.
I'll see if I could find anything on YouTube about it.

Found it:

I think scripture is very clear I stand by what I wrote from the scripture i posted.. as for salvation by grace through faith I do not think they preached what paul was preaching but rather what Christ was preaching, repentance, keeping the ten commandments and the Kingdom of Heaven as they were instructed by Christ to do after his ascension.

Blessings sister.

 

[GodsGrace]

I think scripture is very clear I stand by what I wrote from the scripture i posted.. as for salvation by grace through faith I do not think they preached what paul was preaching but rather what Christ was preaching, repentance, keeping the ten commandments and the Kingdom of Heaven as they were instructed by Christ to do after his ascension.

Blessings sister.

Yes. Of course I agree to the above.
But we do have to have faith first before our works are of any value to God...
they certainly are of value to other persons -whether to one doing good is a believer or not.
This was the Eph 2 teaching by Paul.

I think you might be misunderstanding my point.
The video I sent is very interesting and informative and biblical.

 

[GodsGrace]

I think scripture is very clear I stand by what I wrote from the scripture i posted.. as for salvation by grace through faith I do not think they preached what paul was preaching but rather what Christ was preaching, repentance, keeping the ten commandments and the Kingdom of Heaven as they were instructed by Christ to do after his ascension.

Blessings sister.

I'd like to add that Jesus kept everything very simple and Paul complicated theology...
However they did teach the same but in different ways and there is no conflict as some might say.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I'm mystified as to why anyone would think that our eternal salvation on the basis of Paul's Gospel leads to some sort of "license" to sin.

Pray tell, when did you or anyone else here ever stop sinning after believing the Gospel? You see, the accusation of "license" is nothing but a poisoning of the wells of discussion because it accuses others of believing and saying such a thing.

That seems to be the crux of the confusion.....you think that because you can’t stop sinning that Christ’s sacrifice covers any sin you commit after you become a “believer”.....yet, in order to remain a Christian one has to cease from committing deliberate sin. Does God help us do that? He surely does but he won’t do it for us....he will bless our own efforts to fight the sinful tendencies in us, just as Paul stated. (Rom 7:21-25)

Before Christ gave us the permanent basis for forgiveness, there was no salvation.......so those who lived and died before he paid for our redemption, had to wait for their resurrection to have everlasting life granted to them. (John 5:28-29; Heb 11:13-16)

There are two kinds of sin mentioned in the Scriptures....the one we inherited from Adam, and the ones we commit by choice. We can’t help the inheritance we received from Adam, but we sure as heck can help the sins we commit by choice.

This is the challenge of free will.....Adam lost sight of the fact that sin leads to death.....not the immediate kind, but the kind that chips away at a person’s resolve, under pressure. That pressure can come from many directions and satan knows all too well where our individual weaknesses lie. We can be overcome and this will lead to rejection by the one who will judge us righteously. (Matt 7:21-23)

So, those who think that there is any merit in their attempts at even "qualifications," go for it, for in the end many will learn about their follies in that false doctrine.

The Bible is full of these qualifications......there was no point in God giving Israel his laws if there was no expectation of them abiding by them? Did God expect perfect obedience? In our sinful state? No! But the one thing that Abraham was commended for, was that he “listened to the voice” of his God and obeyed him without question....even to the sacrificing of his own son.

Obedience has always been required of God’s servants, and at times, when they failed due to human imperfection, he provided the means to forgive them, even temporarily through animal sacrifices. But one requirement was always necessary....repentance. There was never a time when people could say to God “I can’t help sinning, so you have to bury my sin in Christ’s sacrifice”.
There was accountability and recompense.
Peter described those who denied accountability. (2 Peter 2:17-22)

Everlasting salvation is indeed very real, with separation not at all being a power able to separate us from the love of God and from Christ and the salvation. Nobody can define that imaginary line into the alleged loss of salvation. Nobody. I've asked time after time for the salvation-loss gangs to define that line, and they ALL shied away from that challenge in the cowardice they have about their own beliefs.

I don’t question “everlasting salvation”, what I question is the false basis on which OSAS is based.
I have offered you the Scriptural basis for believing that it is a false and very misguided doctrine.

Where does scripture discuss becoming UNborn again, UNsealed by Holy Spirit and the removal of salvation, which would be the Father forfeiting His own Spirit? Seriously? That some don't see the totality in the perfect Power of God unto our salvation, His sealing of us and His EARNEST of His own Spirit...

You are assuming a great deal by that argument.....as I have said, you cannot lose what you never had, and God will withdraw his precious spirit from anyone who throws Christ’s sacrifice back in his face, as if sinning with impunity is automatically covered, and that God requires only “belief” in order to receive the gift.
There are qualifications as that little word “IF” identifies.

It’s the same qualification that God originally gave Israel.....that he would be their God “IF” they obeyed him.
Did they obey him? What did he do when they failed? What was the Babylonian exile all about?

It speaks for itself, and the questions asked of the salvation-loss gangs have remained fruitless because of their bent upon trying to pit the word of God against itself coupled with the habitual practice of injecting "salvation" into contexts where it clearly doesn't belong.

It’s all in the interpretation and we will all know soon enough if we have got the bull by the horns....
Jesus will do what he is appointed to do....to judge according to God’s standards, not man’s.

The fact that there are “goats” in the world who have no idea that they are not “sheep”, (Matt 7:21-23) means that “many” are completely disillusioned.....I wonder who they will prove to be.....? Jesus will let us know.