Was the death on the cross necessary?

[John Caldwell]

Propitiation means throwing a virgin into a volcano! It's in the encyclopedia!

Yep. Calvinists are notorious for "double-speak", deconstructing Scripture, and changing the meanings of words to suit their philosophy. PSA shares this quality (it is originally a Calvinistic theory).

PSA is the best example of what happens when people ignore God's warning not to be deceived or carried away by vain philosophies.

This thread has proved over and over that PSA is not in Scripture. Their "defence" is it is somehow "taught" nonetheless. It fails the test of Scripture but they hold it anyway.

They look for a purpose and intent for Scripture as God's Word to them is insufficient. Presenting Scripture and asking them to prove their position via Scripture is a waste of time as they hold humanistic philosophy rather than Scripture as the authority for their belief.

This is like discussing issues with cult members. You cannot combat indoctrination. We can only point to God's Word. It is up to them to choose Scripture or PSA.

I was there a few years ago. No one would have persuaded me PSA was wrong. The conviction came from God and the realization from Scripture. PSA does not pass the test of Scripture.

That is why I am ignoring them now. They have been told the truth and given Scripture. Nothing else needs to be said.

 

[Candidus]

Please realize that the Bible teaches that you have sinned and come short of the glory of God; and that the wages of sin is death.

That means that God in His justice has no recourse but to sentence you to death.

The gospel of Jesus Christ is that Jesus died on the Cross in your place and in doing so, He took your death sentence upon Himself; and that this is the Lord's provision so that you can be forgiven.

So, yet again you admit what I have been saying! The wages of sin is death; eternal separation from God in Hell. You then take God's standard for "us" and say that Jesus took that death sentence on the cross for us... He did not! God lowered the bar. He accepted less than what He demands of "Us". What kind of "Just" God would send His Son, with all His advantages of no Original Sin, and have the audacity to accept less than the standard He sets for "us"?

Therefore if Jesus did not take your death sentence, you are not forgiven.

Then you are saying that you are not forgiven! Remember, it is YOU that tells God that He MUST adhere to a 'Higher Power' called 'Retributive Justice,' and that it MUST be exactly what we deserve as the penalty of sin, yet that never happened!

For God does not arbitrarily forgive people out of hand just because they say that they won't do it again.

Jer 13:23, Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.

The fact is, that you are sinners; and your turning over a new leaf is not going to change this fact.

You need someone to pay the penalty for your sins; and that someone can't be you. You don't have it in you to take your own penalty. Only Jesus can handle the punishment that your sin requires.

The wages of sin is death; Eternal separation from God in Hell. No one has ever paid for the sins of someone else!

He did it for you; won't you receive the free gift that He offers? For the gift that He offers is indeed salvation.

He paid the penalty for your sin.

Show me where Jesus is in Hell as we speak, and then you would have an argument.

If you reject this, then I will only say this, that this is what the Lord says to you:

Jer 13:17, But if ye will not hear it, my soul shall weep in secret places for your pride; and mine eye shall weep sore, and run down with tears, because the LORD'S flock is carried away captive.

Show me where Jeremiah was talking about some man-made fiction of Penal Substitution, and then you would be able to apply it to others.

But there is one verse that applies to what you say... "He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction." 2 Peter 3:16.

 

[bbyrd009]

Propitiation means throwing a virgin into a volcano! It's in the encyclopedia!

ty

So, yet again you admit what I have been saying! The wages of sin is death; eternal separation from God in Hell. You then take God's standard for "us" and say that Jesus took that death sentence on the cross for us... He did not! God lowered the bar. he accepted less than what He demands of "Us". What kind of "Just" God would send His Son, with all His advantages of no Original Sin, and have the audacity to accept less than the standard He sets for "us"?

Then you are saying that you are not forgiven! Remember, it is YOU that tells God that He MUST adhere to a higher Power called retributive Justice, and that it MUST be exactly what we deserve as the penalty of sin, yet that never happened!



The wages of sin is death; Eternal separation from God in Hell. No one has ever paid that penalty for someone else!



Show me where Jesus is in Hell as we speak, and then you would have an argument.



Show me where Jeremiah was talking about some man-made fiction of Penal Substitution, and then you would be able to apply it to others.

But there is one verse that applies to what you say... "He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction." 2 Peter 3:16.

and ty again. Knowledge brings sorrow i guess huh

"The best cure for Christianity is reading the Bible"

 

[bbyrd009]

The cross is special and sacred to biblical Christians because we know that God ordained it to save us.

then wadr you better pick that puppy up and believe for reals that No son of man may die for another's sins, just like the Book tells us. Ha we wanna walk on water but we dont even wanna walk out that front door lol

 

[Candidus]

PSA is the best example of what happens when people ignore God's warning not to be deceived or carried away by vain philosophies.

This thread has proved over and over that PSA is not in Scripture. Their "defense" is it is somehow "taught" nonetheless. It fails the test of Scripture but they hold it anyway.

They look for a purpose and intent for Scripture as God's Word to them is insufficient. Presenting Scripture and asking them to prove their position via Scripture is a waste of time as they hold humanistic philosophy rather than Scripture as the authority for their belief.

This is like discussing issues with cult members. You cannot combat indoctrination. We can only point to God's Word. It is up to them to choose Scripture or PSA.

I was there a few years ago. No one would have persuaded me PSA was wrong. The conviction came from God and the realization from Scripture. PSA does not pass the test of Scripture.

That is why I am ignoring them now. They have been told the truth and given Scripture. Nothing else needs to be said.

Well stated! Why would someone tenaciously cling onto something that has been revealed to not be in Scripture? Like a dog that will not let go of the leg its teeth are committed to... they appear to be more focused upon what they may lose if they let go, instead of what they might gain if they did!

PSA guarantees future security and justifies a sinning religion. It removes all necessary things like obedience and future faith. To put it bluntly, I should ask those that refuse to believe the Scriptures the following... "Exactly what sin is it that you love more than God that you refuse to believe the Bible and change?"

 

[bbyrd009]

well that maybe seems fair from a certain pov, but imo you cant really blame ppl for believing the preacher, and going along with the camp? Change is hard; it is even postulated that we suffer mostly in resistance to change

 

[Candidus]

THE 1689 BAPTIST CONFESSION OF FAITH480

Of God’s Covenant

1. The distance between God and the creature is so great, that although reasonable creatures do owe obedience unto him as their creator, yet they could never have attained the reward of life but by some voluntary condescension on God’s part, which he hath been pleased to express by way of covenant.1

1Luke xvii. 10, Job xxxv. 7, 8.

2. Moreover, man having brought himself under the curse of the law by his fall it pleased the Lord to make a covenant of grace,2 wherein he freely offereth unto sinners life and salvation by Jesus Christ, requiring of them faith in him, that they may be saved;3 and promising to give unto all those that are ordained unto eternal life, his Holy Spirit, to make them willing and able to believe.4

2Gen. ii. 17, Gal. iii. 10, Rom. iii. 20, 21. 3Rom. viii. 3, Mark xvi. 15, 16, John iii. 16. 4Ezek. xxxvi. 26, 27, John vi. 44, 45, Ps. cx. 3.

3. This covenant is revealed in the gospel, first of all to Adam in the promise of salvation by the seed of the woman,5 and afterwards by farther steps, until the full discovery thereof was completed in the New Testament;6 and it is founded in that eternal covenant transaction that was between the Father and the Son about the redemption of the elect;7 and it is alone by the grace of this covenant that all of the posterity of fallen Adam that ever were saved did obtain life and blessed immortality, man being now utterly incapable of acceptance with God upon those terms on which Adam stood in his state of innocency.8

5Gen. iii. 15. 6Heb. i. 1. 72 Tim. i. 9, Tit. i. 2. 8Heb. xi. 6, 13, Rom. iv. 1, 2, &c., Acts iv. 12, John viii. 56.

Of Christ the Mediator

1. It pleased God, in his eternal purpose, to choose and ordain the Lord Jesus, his only begotten Son, according to the covenant made between them both to be the mediator between God and man;1 the prophet,2 priest,3 and king;4 head and saviour of his church,5 the heir of all things,6 and judge of the world;7 unto whom he did from all

480 From the Second London Baptist Confession of 1677 (1689), Chapter 7, “Of God’s Covenant” and Chapter 8, “Of Christ the Mediator.” 178

eternity give a people to be his seed and to be by him in time redeemed, called, justified, sanctified, and glorified.8

1Isa. xlii. 1, 1 Pet. i. 19, 20. 2Acts iii. 22. 3Heb. v. 5, 6. 4Ps. ii. 6, Luke i. 33. 5Eph. i. 22, 23. 6Heb. i. 2. 7Acts xvii. 31. 8Isa. liii. 10, John xvii. 6, Rom. viii. 30.

2. The Son of God, the second person in the Holy Trinity, being very and eternal God, the brightness of the Father’s glory, of one substance and equal with him who made the world, who upholdeth and governeth all things he hath made, did, when the fullness of time was come, take upon him man’s nature, with all the essential properties and common infirmities thereof,9 yet without sin,10 being conceived by the Holy Spirit in the womb of the Virgin Mary, the Holy Spirit coming down upon her: and the power of the Most High overshadowing her; and so was made of a woman of the tribe of Judah, of the seed of Abraham and David according to the scriptures;11 so that two whole, perfect, and distinct natures were inseparably joined together in one person, without conversion, composition, or confusion, which person is very God and very man, yet one Christ, the only mediator between God and man.12

9John i. 14, Gal. iv. 4. 10Rom. viii. 3, Heb. xi. 14, 16, 17; iv. 15. 11Matt. i. 22, 23, Luke i. 27, 31, 35. 12Rom. ix. 5, 1 Tim. ii. 5.

3. The Lord Jesus, in his human nature thus united to the divine, in the person of the Son, was sanctified and anointed with the Holy Spirit above measure,13 having in him all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge;14 in whom it pleased the Father that all fulness should dwell,15 to the end that being holy, harmless, undefiled,16 and full of grace and truth,17 he might be throughly furnished to execute the office of a mediator and surety;18 which office he took not upon himself, but was thereunto called by his Father;19 who also put all power and judgment in his hand, and gave him commandment to execute the same.20

13Ps. xlv. 7, Acts x. 38, John iii. 34. l4Col. ii. 3. 15Col. i. 19. 16Heb. vii. 26. 17John i. 14. 18Heb. vii. 22. 19Heb. v. 5. 20John v. 22, 27, Matt xxviii. 18, Acts ii. 36.

4. This office the Lord Jesus did most willingly undertake,21 which that he might discharge he was made under the law,22 and did perfectly fulfil it, and underwent the punishment due to us, which we should have borne and suffered,23 being made sin and a curse for us;24 enduring most grievous sorrows in his soul, and most painful sufferings in his body;25 was crucified, and died, and remained in the state of the dead, yet saw no corruption:26 on the third day he arose from the dead27 with the same body in which he suffered,28 with which he also ascended into heaven,29 and there sitteth at the right hand of his Father making intercession,30 and shall return to judge men and angels at the end of the world.31

21Ps. xl. 7, 8, Heb. x. 5–10, John x. 18. 22Gal. iv. 4, Matt. iii. 15. 23Gal. iii. 13, Isa. liii. 6, 1 Pet. iii. 18. 242 Cor. v. 21. 25Matt. xxvi. 37, 38, Luke xxii. 44, Matt. xxvii. 46. 26Acts xiii. 37. 271 Cor. xv. 3, 4. 28John xx. 25, 27. 29Mark xvi. 19, Acts. i. 9–11. 30Rom. viii. 34, Heb. ix. 24. 31Acts x. 42, Rom. xiv. 9, 10, Acts i. 11, 2 Pet. ii. 4.

5. The Lord Jesus, by his perfect obedience and sacrifice of himself, which he through the eternal Spirit once offered up unto God, hath fully satisfied the justice of God,32 procured reconciliation, and purchased an everlasting inheritance in the kingdom of heaven for those whom the Father hath given unto him.33

179

32Heb. ix. 14; x. 14, Rom. iii. 25, 26. 33John xvii. 2, Heb. ix. 1.

6. Although the price of redemption was not actually paid by Christ till after his incarnation, yet the virtue, efficacy, and benefit thereof were communicated to the elect in all ages successively from the beginning of the world, in and by those promises, types, and sacrifice wherein he was revealed, and signified to be the seed which should bruise the serpent’s head;34 and the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world,35 being the same yesterday, and to–day, and forever.36

341 Cor. iv. 10, Heb. iv. 2, 1 Pet. i. 10, 11. 35Rev. xiii. 8. 36Heb. xiii. 8.

7. Christ, in the work of mediation, acteth according to both natures, by each nature doing that which is proper to itself; yet by reason of the unity of the person, that which is proper to one nature is sometimes in scripture, attributed to the person denominated by the other nature.37

37John iii. 13, Acts xx. 28.

8. To all those for whom Christ hath obtained eternal redemption, he doth certainly and effectually apply and communicate the same, making intercession for them;38 uniting them to himself by his Spirit, revealing unto them in and by the Word, the mystery of salvation, persuading them to believe and obey,39 governing their hearts by his Word and Spirit,40 and overcoming all their enemies by his almighty power and wisdom,41 in such manner and ways as are most consonant to his wonderful and unsearchable dispensation, and all of free and absolute grace, without any condition foreseen in them to procure it.42

38John vi. 37; x. 15, 16; xvii. 9, Rom. v. 10. 39John xvii. 6, Eph. i. 9, 1 John v. 20. 40Rom. viii. 9, 14. 41Ps. cx. 1, 1 Cor. xv. 25, 26. 42John iii. 8, Eph. i. 8.

9. This office of mediator between God and man is proper only to Christ, who is the prophet, priest, and king of the church of God, and may not be either in whole, or any part thereof, transferred from him to any other.43

431 Tim. ii. 5.

10. This number and order of offices is necessary; for in respect of our ignorance, we stand in need of his prophetical office;44 and in respect of our alienation from God, and imperfection of the best of our services, we need his priestly office to reconcile us and present us acceptable unto God;45 and in respect of our averseness and utter inability to return to God, and for our rescue and security from our spiritual adversaries, we need his kingly office to convince, subdue, draw, uphold, deliver, and preserve us to his heavenly kingdom.46

44John i. 18. 45Col. i. 21, Gal. v. 17. 46John xvi. 8, Ps. cx. 3, Luke i. 74, 75.

AN EXPOSITION OF THE DOCTRINE481

For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit. (1 Peter 3:18)

481 The article on “Particular Redemption” adapted from the tract, “The Full and Glorious Atonement of Our Lord Jesus Christ” by the author. 180

1 Peter 3:18 provides a commentary on the atonement wrought by our Lord Jesus Christ. “For Christ hath once suffered for sins…” This reveals the fact and necessity of redemption or why our Lord died. It was for sin. When Peter goes on to say, “The just for the unjust…” that reveals the vicarious or substitutionary nature of Christ’s death. When the apostle declares “…that he might bring us to God,” we note the certainty of redemption. Our Lord did not die to make men savable. The purpose was to reconcile men to God!

Such a profound subject necessitates both clarity and conciseness. The subject is approached in the following manner: Particular Redemption considered Theologically, Scripturally and Practically.

Perhaps the suggestion that you should place you faith on Jesus Christ and God's Word instead of human "Confessions" for you salvation, you might see the truth would be in order!

 

[Candidus]

well that maybe seems fair from a certain pov, but imo you cant really blame ppl for believing the preacher, and going along with the camp? Change is hard; it is even postulated that we suffer mostly in resistance to change

I can blame people for believing the preacher! The Bible blames people for "believing the preacher"!

In the Dark Ages... before the internet It was common in debate for people to place their faith "in the preacher." Will that preacher "believe you" into heaven? It was common to find many people who actually believed that their Preacher had faith for them by proxy.

At that time it was common to hear in debate the fallacy of Authority, or the "My Daddy can beat up your Daddy" approach." In a debate, the one who wins is not always right... they are just a better debater! I found that many people "believed" certain things because the person they trusted was the one that was the most dogmatic and "sure of themselves." It is a transfer of "confidence" that they have faith in. We see this in postings online where people cannot defend their position, and post dissertations of people's arguments that they agree with, as if that were their own defense. This is actually pathetic and sad.

You will notice that those who's faith is in men, place their faith in whoever is the most "sure" of what they believe. They are impressed by bullheaded Dogma, this is how they "arrive at truth." I used to try to "reason" with them, but they are "unreasonable"; they yield to a Higher Power called "Dogma." The only hope to get through to them is two-fold. First, you have to be more Dogmatic than the people they place their faith in for their beliefs. Big names, Confessions and Creeds are their faith; not Jesus Christ and the Scriptures. If they find truth in dogmatism, the only argument they can respect is greater dogmatism! Secondly, unless you can get them to see the futility of dogmatism as a means to establish truth, they will never be honest with Scripture and themselves. Then, and only then, will they consider what the Bible says as the source of what they believe. Until the logical fallacy of Dogmatism is abandoned, then and only then can people actually say "Come, let us reason together..."

I was once told, "Our preacher is not always right; but he's never in doubt!"
It was said to be funny or cute; but the fact that they were correct, I saw it as frightening!

 

[Behold]

The strange thing is they deny continued special revelation yet somehow cling to the myth even though they know that they cannot provide even one verse stating God punished Jesus instead of punishing men.

[/QUOTE]

God's wrath poured out on Jesus, on the Cross.
"Judgement".
So, the issue you have is that someone's theology has taught you all that you are thinking, and this person is a heretic.
You need to burn all your commentaries, as they have ruined your understanding of the reason Jesus was nailed to a tree after He was beaten and whipped.
This is punishment, inflicted by men, upon the LAMB of God, who is taking away the sin of the world, by enduring the Judgment of God, against SIN.

 

[Candidus]

The strange thing is they deny continued special revelation yet somehow cling to the myth even though they know that they cannot provide even one verse stating God punished Jesus instead of punishing men.


God's wrath poured out on Jesus, on the Cross.
"Judgement".
So, the issue you have is that someone's theology has taught you all that you are thinking, and this person is a heretic.
You need to burn all your commentaries, as they have ruined your understanding of the reason Jesus was nailed to a tree after He was beaten and whipped.
This is punishment, inflicted by men, upon the LAMB of God, who is taking away the sin of the world, by enduring the Judgment of God, against SIN.

Show me where the Bible specifically and precisely says that "God's wrath poured out on Jesus, on the Cross." If you cannot show me, then stop calling your man-made myths "truth" or "Scripture."

You can't because what you teach is no more truth than saying Joseph Smith was a Prophet of God!

 

[bbyrd009]

I can blame people for believing the preacher! The Bible blames people for "believing the preacher"!

ha well sure, but one will never hear that from a pulpit, they have to go and find that for themselves right

Show me where the Bible specifically and precisely says that "God's wrath poured out on Jesus, on the Cross." If you cannot show me, then stop calling your man-made myths "truth" or "Scripture."

You can't because what you teach is no more truth than saying Joseph Smith was a Prophet of God!

we get propitiation bc we believe we need propitiation i guess; the virgin in the volcano. And we read stuff like I desire mercy, not sacrifice, but it just goes right over our heads or something? The Esau Story, same thing?

 

[Candidus]

ha well sure, but one will never hear that from a pulpit, they have to go and find that for themselves right

we get propitiation bc we believe we need propitiation i guess; the virgin in the volcano. And we read stuff like I desire mercy, not sacrifice, but it just goes right over our heads or something? The Esau Story, same thing?

Propitiation is not something "we" need. It is said to be something "God" needs. Not every definition of Propitiation has to do with "Wrath", which is a simple fact. The context of Scripture helps to determine "which" form the word takes. The primary meanings that Lexicons give to the word as an action or a verb is Expiation, which means to take out of the way. Remove, cover if the benefit is directed toward man. If it is an action directed towards God, the propitiation would be more logical. Yet, nothing in the word itself means "wrath" or the removal or "wrath." To "conciliate" can mean to quell anger, but it also can merely mean to reconcile or bring together a divided set of parties. There is no "wrath" or "punishment" or getting your "Pound of Flesh" in retaliation in the word; the context in which the word is used must say that for it to carry that meaning.

One example that keeps coming up is Romans 3:25. "Whom God has set forth (to be) propitiation through faith in His blood...."

So, I ask, "who" is the benefactor in which this is directed? To "who's" benefit does the Blood affect? Man... not God!

The other thing that is ignored in an effort to find a proof-text is, the term translated "propitiate" here is not even a verb! It is not an "action," but a "thing." In this, the suggestion of Strong's would be the meaning of "atonement" or as Bauer shows... "sin-offering." In Romans 3:25 it would be wrong to force an action either way into the passage since it is not a verb. I would say that exegetically, the word "Atonement" would be more fitting. It neither confirms nor denies either position people take; it just denies them the use of it as a mere "proof-text." If the meaning of "wrath" in a proprietary capacity is to be proved, it cannot be found here. It can only be established if it can be found elsewhere in Scripture.

 

[bbyrd009]

It is said to be something "God" needs.

where? ty
i mean it is maybe tempting to extract that from

"Whom God has set forth (to be) propitiation through faith in His blood...."

but imo that can also be taken another way, as Yah setting forth the propitiation bc we needed it
otherwise Yah is made a liar @ I desire mercy, not sacrifice right

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

then wadr you better pick that puppy up and believe for reals that No son of man may die for another's sins, just like the Book tells us. Ha we wanna walk on water but we dont even wanna walk out that front door lol

Jesus died for all the sins of the elect. He died in our place.

 

[bbyrd009]

Jesus died for all the sins of the elect. He died in our place.

so go with that then, as long as you need to, i dont condemn you. I also dont believe you will ever partake in Christ that way, but i also cannot find any judgement for beliefs. I have the feeling that Christ died for my sins indeed--when i killed Him, when i found the world iow--but you might arrive at a diff conclusion, too. Are we required to believe exactly the same in order to be "saved" do you think? I mean really all i care is can i trust you around my kids, right; your beliefs in what you might do or where you might go after you have died, what is that to me?

So imo the death on the cross was necessary bc Yah so loved the world, and that is what the world needed, since the world is full of bloodthirsty little Zeus-believers like me, anxious to punish everyone elses sins

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Louis Berkhof saw this in scripture;
2. THE SUFFERINGS OF THE SAVIOUR. Several points should be stressed in connection with the sufferings of Christ.

a. He suffered during His entire life. In view of the fact that Jesus began to speak of His coming sufferings towards the end of His life, we are often inclined to think that the final agonies constituted the whole of His sufferings. Yet His whole life was a life of suffering. It was the servant-life of the Lord of Hosts, the life of the Sinless One in daily association with sinners, the life of the Holy One in a sin-cursed world.
The way of obedience was for Him at the same time a way of suffering. He suffered from the repeated assaults of Satan, from the hatred and unbelief of His own people, and from the persecution of His enemies. Since He trod the wine-press alone, His loneliness must have been oppressive, and His sense of responsibility, crushing. His suffering was consecrated suffering, increasing in severity as He approached the end. The suffering that began in the incarnation finally reached its climax in the passio magna at the end of His life. Then all the wrath of God against sin bore down upon Him.

b. He suffered in body and soul. There has been a time when the attention was fixed too exclusively on the bodily sufferings of the Saviour.

It was not the blind physical pain as such that constituted the essence of His suffering, but that pain accompanied with anguish of soul and with a mediatorial consciousness of the sin of humanity with which He was burdened.

Later on it became customary to minimize the importance of the bodily sufferings, since it was felt that sin, being of a spiritual nature, could only be atoned for by purely spiritual sufferings. These one-sided views must be avoided. Both body and soul were affected by sin, and in both the punishment had to be borne. Moreover, the Bible clearly teaches that Christ suffered in both.
He agonized in the garden, where His soul was “exceeding sorrowful, even unto death,” and He was buffeted and scourged and crucified.

c. His sufferings resulted from various causes. In the last analysis all the sufferings of Christ resulted from the fact that He took the place of sinners vicariously. But we may distinguish several proximate causes, such as: (1) The fact that He who was the Lord of the universe had to occupy a menial position, even the position of a bond-servant or slave, and that He who had an inherent right to command was in duty bound to obey.

(2) The fact that He who was pure and holy had to live in a sinful, polluted atmosphere, in daily association with sinners, and was constantly reminded of the greatness of the guilt with which He was burdened by the sins of His contemporaries.

(3) His perfect awareness and clear anticipation, from the very beginning of His life, of the extreme sufferings that would, as it were, overwhelm Him in the end. He knew exactly what was coming, and the outlook was far from cheerful.

(4) Finally, also the privations of life, the temptations of the devil, the hatred and rejection of the people, and the maltreatment and persecutions to which He was subjected.

d. His sufferings were unique. We sometimes speak of the “ordinary” sufferings of Christ, when we think of those sufferings that resulted from the ordinary causes of misery in the world. But we should remember that these causes were far more numerous for the Saviour than they are for us. Moreover, even these common sufferings had an extraordinary character in His case, and were therefore unique. His capacity for suffering was commensurate with the ideal character of His humanity, with His ethical perfection, and with His sense of righteousness and holiness and veracity.
No one could feel the poignancy of pain and grief and moral evil as Jesus could. But besides these more common sufferings there were also the sufferings caused by the fact that God caused our iniquities to come upon Him like a flood. The sufferings of the Saviour were not purely natural, but also the result of a positive deed of God, Isa. 53:6,10.
To the more special sufferings of the Saviour may also be reckoned the temptations in the desert, and the agonies of Gethsemane and Golgotha.

e. His sufferings in temptations. The temptations of Christ formed an integral part of His sufferings. They are temptations that are encountered in the pathway of suffering, Matt. 4:1-11 (and parallels); Luke 22:28; John 12:27; Heb. 4:15; 5:7,8. His public ministry began with a period of temptation, and even after that time temptations were repeated at intervals right on into dark Gethsemane. It was only by entering into the very trials of men, into their temptations, that Jesus could become a truly sympathetic High Priest and attain to the heights of a proved and triumphant perfection, Heb. 4:15; 5:7-9. We may not detract from the reality of the temptations of Jesus as the last Adam, however difficult it may be to conceive of one who could not sin as being tempted.

 

[Candidus]

Jesus died for all the sins of the elect. He died in our place.

Yes, Scripture tells us that Jesus died for His sheep, the Elect, the Body, His Bride. It also says that He died for the sins of the whole world in addition to this!

One side shows that His death is for all, but specifically for those who believe upon the Lord Jesus Christ and have it applied fully.

 

[John Caldwell]

ἱλασμός is used twice in the New Testament. It has been translated "propitiation" and "expiation" (both are appropriate).


ἱλασμός means "atoning sacrifice, sin offering, propitiation, expiation, one who makes propitiation/ expiation".

In the Bible ἱλασμός means "One who makes propitiation/ expiation" as the subject is Christ rather than human sin or divine wrath. Christ is set forth, Christ is our Propitiation/ Expiation.

 

[Candidus]

Louis Berkhof saw this in scripture;
2. THE SUFFERINGS OF THE SAVIOUR. Several points should be stressed in connection with the sufferings of Christ.

a. He suffered during His entire life. In view of the fact that Jesus began to speak of His coming sufferings towards the end of His life, we are often inclined to think that the final agonies constituted the whole of His sufferings. Yet His whole life was a life of suffering. It was the servant-life of the Lord of Hosts, the life of the Sinless One in daily association with sinners, the life of the Holy One in a sin-cursed world.
The way of obedience was for Him at the same time a way of suffering. He suffered from the repeated assaults of Satan, from the hatred and unbelief of His own people, and from the persecution of His enemies. Since He trod the wine-press alone, His loneliness must have been oppressive, and His sense of responsibility, crushing. His suffering was consecrated suffering, increasing in severity as He approached the end. The suffering that began in the incarnation finally reached its climax in the passio magna at the end of His life. Then all the wrath of God against sin bore down upon Him.

b. He suffered in body and soul. There has been a time when the attention was fixed too exclusively on the bodily sufferings of the Saviour.

It was not the blind physical pain as such that constituted the essence of His suffering, but that pain accompanied with anguish of soul and with a mediatorial consciousness of the sin of humanity with which He was burdened.

Later on it became customary to minimize the importance of the bodily sufferings, since it was felt that sin, being of a spiritual nature, could only be atoned for by purely spiritual sufferings. These one-sided views must be avoided. Both body and soul were affected by sin, and in both the punishment had to be borne. Moreover, the Bible clearly teaches that Christ suffered in both.
He agonized in the garden, where His soul was “exceeding sorrowful, even unto death,” and He was buffeted and scourged and crucified.

c. His sufferings resulted from various causes. In the last analysis all the sufferings of Christ resulted from the fact that He took the place of sinners vicariously. But we may distinguish several proximate causes, such as: (1) The fact that He who was the Lord of the universe had to occupy a menial position, even the position of a bond-servant or slave, and that He who had an inherent right to command was in duty bound to obey.

(2) The fact that He who was pure and holy had to live in a sinful, polluted atmosphere, in daily association with sinners, and was constantly reminded of the greatness of the guilt with which He was burdened by the sins of His contemporaries.

(3) His perfect awareness and clear anticipation, from the very beginning of His life, of the extreme sufferings that would, as it were, overwhelm Him in the end. He knew exactly what was coming, and the outlook was far from cheerful.

(4) Finally, also the privations of life, the temptations of the devil, the hatred and rejection of the people, and the maltreatment and persecutions to which He was subjected.

d. His sufferings were unique. We sometimes speak of the “ordinary” sufferings of Christ, when we think of those sufferings that resulted from the ordinary causes of misery in the world. But we should remember that these causes were far more numerous for the Saviour than they are for us. Moreover, even these common sufferings had an extraordinary character in His case, and were therefore unique. His capacity for suffering was commensurate with the ideal character of His humanity, with His ethical perfection, and with His sense of righteousness and holiness and veracity.
No one could feel the poignancy of pain and grief and moral evil as Jesus could. But besides these more common sufferings there were also the sufferings caused by the fact that God caused our iniquities to come upon Him like a flood. The sufferings of the Saviour were not purely natural, but also the result of a positive deed of God, Isa. 53:6,10.
To the more special sufferings of the Saviour may also be reckoned the temptations in the desert, and the agonies of Gethsemane and Golgotha.

e. His sufferings in temptations. The temptations of Christ formed an integral part of His sufferings. They are temptations that are encountered in the pathway of suffering, Matt. 4:1-11 (and parallels); Luke 22:28; John 12:27; Heb. 4:15; 5:7,8. His public ministry began with a period of temptation, and even after that time temptations were repeated at intervals right on into dark Gethsemane. It was only by entering into the very trials of men, into their temptations, that Jesus could become a truly sympathetic High Priest and attain to the heights of a proved and triumphant perfection, Heb. 4:15; 5:7-9. We may not detract from the reality of the temptations of Jesus as the last Adam, however difficult it may be to conceive of one who could not sin as being tempted.

Berkhof apparently believes for you, does he repent for you too?

 

[Candidus]

ἱλασμός is used twice in the New Testament. It has been translated "propitiation" and "expiation" (both are appropriate).


ἱλασμός means "atoning sacrifice, sin offering, propitiation, expiation, one who makes propitiation/ expiation".

In the Bible ἱλασμός means "One who makes propitiation/ expiation" as the subject is Christ rather than human sin or divine wrath. Christ is set forth, Christ is our Propitiation/ Expiation.

Now, now... don't confuse us with the Facts!