Was the death on the cross necessary?

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

ROB BELL has sadly been deceived— he is a False Teacher & Heretic (i.e. a Heretic is one who holds views & beliefs that are Contrary to the Scriptures in the Bible). He is one of the leaders of the unbiblical Emergent Church Movement. He is Pastor of Mars Hill Church in Grandville, MI, and is also the featured speaker in a series of "spiritual" short films called NOOMA. Rob Bell claims to be a "Christian", he however is sadly an UNSAVED Person who THINKS that he's Saved. Rob Bell openly DENIES SCRIPTURE— He also DENIES essential Christian Doctrine, and he is a UNIVERSALIST who believes that all people will eventually be Saved which is opposite of what Jesus & the Bible teaches. He DENIES that there is a literal HELL— yet JESUS warned us about Hell more than anyone in Scripture! We Pray for Rob that he'd come to know the Truth of God's Word, & Repent & Believe the Gospel (Mark 1:15). Rob Bell is NOT a Brother-in-Christ to embrace, NO, he is Wolf-in-Sheep's-Clothing to "BEWARE OF" & AVOID as Jesus warned us about in Matt 7:15-20. Read: Judging Others - Should Christians Judge?

The Christian Leaders that are rightly stating that Rob Bell is a False Teacher are: Albert Mohler, John MacArthur, Franklin Graham, John Piper, Paul Washer, Steve Lawson, Michael Horton, Mark Driscoll, Brannon Howse, and many more.

Beware Rob Bell, A False Teacher

https://billmuehlenberg.com/2015/02/19/the-appalling-apostasy-of-rob-bell/

 

[John Caldwell]

It is, in fact, based on scripture; specifically Romans 3:25-26.

Wrong, but nice smoke screen.

Romans 3:21-26
But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

The passage does not state that God punished Jesus instead of us.

That is the problem with disciples of Penal Substitution Theory. You read those words and add to them your theory, claiming it was there all along.

There is a condition worse than blindness, and that is, seeing something that isn't there. (Thomas Hardy)

 

[justbyfaith]

Wrong, but nice smoke screen.

Romans 3:21-26
But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

The passage does not state that God punished Jesus instead of us.

That is the problem with disciples of Penal Substitution Theory. You read those words and add to them your theory, claiming it was there all along.

There is a condition worse than blindness, and that is, seeing something that isn't there. (Thomas Hardy)

"propitiation" means "appeasement of wrath".

The doctrine of PSA is, therefore, in the scripture passage at hand.

And I believe that the average onlooker can see this in spite of your own "smoke screen."

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

It was foretold that the Christ would be attacked by Satan the devil.
Gen 3:15 "And I will put enmity between you (satan) and the woman (Gods heavenly rulership) and between your offspring (evildoers) and her offspring (the christ). He (Jesus) will crush your head, and you (satan) will strike him in the heel.

Satan was bound to make it as painful and excruciating as possible because he would have wanted Jesus to sin and disobey God so that he might have victory. Look at what satan did to Job... he caused him great pain in order to try and cause him to reject Jehovah God.

But Jesus, by standing firm and not giving in won the victory and by his victory all mankind now have the prospect of living forever under the rule of Gods kingdom and will be reunited to Jehovah God.

God has an eternal purpose that is being unfolded as we speak.
You correctly identify the first gospel promise and the futile attempts by Satan to oppose it.

 

[John Caldwell]

"propitiation" means "appeasement of wrath".

The doctrine of PSA is, therefore, in the scripture passage at hand.

And I believe that the average onlooker can see this in spite of your own "smoke screen."

Again, more misdirection.

Propitiation does not mean substitutionary punishment.

ἱλασμός points to Christ as the One through Whom God's wrath is "turned aside". No one denies this.

I believe most here are more intelligent than you give them credit.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

"propitiation" means "appeasement of wrath".

The doctrine of PSA is, therefore, in the scripture passage at hand.

And I believe that the average onlooker can see this in spite of your own "smoke screen."

I have seen people deny that spiritual death occurred at the fall, once that error is made they can never recover. They drift off denying the cross was necessary. That might try and deceive people by seeming to agree with what is being said. That is because they empty the words of their meaning.

 

[John Caldwell]

@justbyfaith,

I am leaving our conversation. For now I am ignoring comments by you, @Anthony D'Arienzo, and @Enoch111.

The reason us with any theological discussions there has to be ground rules or agreed upon presuppositions.

For me, the test for doctrine is Scripture - not theologies and theories. We do not share this criteria. As such you will no doubtly continue to state your view and insist I am wrong, but never actually come up with Scripture stating your belief because none, obviously, exists.

So we are just wasting our time. My view is stated. It is Scripture.

Until you (and the others) are willing to accept Scripture as the source, authority, and test of doctrine we will not have enough common ground to discuss differing interpretations.

I accept all of PSA that is in the Bible but reject what is not. So I believe the passages you provide. But I reject the idea God punished Jesus instead of punishing us because it is not only unbiblical but anti- biblical.

 

[Candidus]

The Bible teaches Penal Substitution theory.

What a laugh!

Where doe the Bible use the word "Penal" or "Substitution?"

There does it say that Jesus was the subject of God's wrath?
Where does the myth of transfer of Character come in with Scripture?
Where does it say that sin was paid for?
Where does it say that Jesus was punished?

PSA is built on the imagination of biased people who read things into Scripture that are just not there.

 

[Candidus]

ROB BELL has sadly been deceived— he is a False Teacher & Heretic (i.e. a Heretic is one who holds views & beliefs that are Contrary to the Scriptures in the Bible). He is one of the leaders of the unbiblical Emergent Church Movement. He is Pastor of Mars Hill Church in Grandville, MI, and is also the featured speaker in a series of "spiritual" short films called NOOMA. Rob Bell claims to be a "Christian", he however is sadly an UNSAVED Person who THINKS that he's Saved. Rob Bell openly DENIES SCRIPTURE— He also DENIES essential Christian Doctrine, and he is a UNIVERSALIST who believes that all people will eventually be Saved which is opposite of what Jesus & the Bible teaches. He DENIES that there is a literal HELL— yet JESUS warned us about Hell more than anyone in Scripture! We Pray for Rob that he'd come to know the Truth of God's Word, & Repent & Believe the Gospel (Mark 1:15). Rob Bell is NOT a Brother-in-Christ to embrace, NO, he is Wolf-in-Sheep's-Clothing to "BEWARE OF" & AVOID as Jesus warned us about in Matt 7:15-20. Read: Judging Others - Should Christians Judge?

The Christian Leaders that are rightly stating that Rob Bell is a False Teacher are: Albert Mohler, John MacArthur, Franklin Graham, John Piper, Paul Washer, Steve Lawson, Michael Horton, Mark Driscoll, Brannon Howse, and many more.

Beware Rob Bell, A False Teacher

https://billmuehlenberg.com/2015/02/19/the-appalling-apostasy-of-rob-bell/

What does that have to do with Penal Substitution? Showing that Rob Bell is a false teacher does nothing to prove that Penal Substitution is in the Bible... does it!

 

[Candidus]

The Christian Leaders that are rightly stating that Rob Bell is a False Teacher are: Albert Mohler, John MacArthur, Franklin Graham, John Piper, Paul Washer, Steve Lawson, Michael Horton, Mark Driscoll, Brannon Howse, and many more.

That's a boatload of false teachers in Fatalism and License to sin!

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

The words born again do not appear in the book of Acts. That must mean no one was born again there using such reasoning.

 

[Candidus]

Again, more misdirection.

Propitiation does not mean substitutionary punishment.

ἱλασμός points to Christ as the One through Whom God's wrath is "turned aside". No one denies this.

I believe most here are more intelligent than you give them credit.

Propitiation means throwing a virgin into a volcano! It's in the encyclopedia!

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

What does that have to do with Penal Substitution? Showing that Rob Bell is a false teacher does nothing to prove that Penal Substitution is in the Bible... does it!

I used him as an example of how error, leads to more error, then apostasy.

 

[Candidus]

The words born again do not appear in the book of Acts. That must mean no one was born again there using such reasoning.

Is Acts the only book in the Bible you acknowledge?

 

[Candidus]

I used him as an example of how error, leads to more error, then apostasy.

yea, you show how Penal Substitution has led these false teachers to Eternal Security and Fatalism! Thanks for proving the point!

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Propitiation means throwing a virgin into a volcano! It's in the encyclopedia!

That is not the biblical usage. You do not want truth.

 

[Candidus]

That is not the biblical usage. You do not want truth.

The Biblical usage is Expiation.

You do understand that "cutting the cheese" means something different in France than it does in America!

You do the same with "propitiation."

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

yea, you show how Penal Substitution has led these false teachers to Eternal Security and Fatalism! Thanks for proving the point!

So according to you, all the reformers, puritans, Apostles, are all mistaken, but you and a few others are correct....lol...not buying what you are selling.

 

[Candidus]

Propitiation, if you are honest with the truth, is no different in sacrificing a virgin in a volcano in the way you use it, than the biblical usage you ignore in Biblical context.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

The Biblical usage is Expiation.

You do understand that "cutting the cheese" means something different in France than it does in America!

You do the same with "propitiation."

The psa taught in scripture includes expiation as well as several other aspects of the cross.