Was the death on the cross necessary?

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

so go with that then, as long as you need to, i dont condemn you. I also dont believe you will ever partake in Christ that way, but i also cannot find any judgement for beliefs. I have the feeling that Christ died for my sins indeed--when i killed Him, when i found the world iow--but you might arrive at a diff conclusion, too. Are we required to believe exactly the same in order to be "saved" do you think? I mean really all i care is can i trust you around my kids, right; your beliefs in what you might do or where you might go after you have died, what is that to me?

So imo the death on the cross was necessary bc Yah so loved the world, and that is what the world needed, since the world is full of bloodthirsty little Zeus-believers like me, anxious to punish everyone elses sins

God planned all of the events of the cross.
Our sins are so wicked that God had to come to earth as a substitute.

20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

 

[John Caldwell]

Now, now... don't confuse us with the Facts!

But But But....what those words really "teach", what they "mean' is......

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Berkhof apparently believes for you, does he repent for you too?

Berkhof apparently believes for you, does he repent for you too?

I posted it for people who want to read something of substance, sorry if you have trouble understanding the historic faith.
I am not that smart, but I know that. I look to more gifted persons to compare and improve my understanding. I do not despise the gifts God has given to the churches, pastors, and teachers.
You and those like you think more highly of yourself than you should. 2cor10
12 For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.

It is clear in that you lack a basic understanding of the biblical terms used. That does not stop you from denigrating real scholarship. Why not start your own thread and see if you attract a few stragglers.

 

[John Caldwell]

I need to post this because of the false doctrines that are held by a few indoctrinated people.

It is up to the individual Christian to judge what he or she will allow in their minds, what they will believe.

The test of doctrine is Scripture – NOT what we believe Scripture teaches but Scripture itself.

What we believe Scripture “teaches” is what we are weighing against Scripture.

PSA is foreign to the text of the Bible. There are no passages that even come close to describing God as punishing Christ instead of punishing us.

People may believe Scripture teaches a lot of things. The test is to see if it is actually contained in the text of God’s Word.

As evidenced by this thread (by over 250 posts) there are no passages that affirm PSA. It is a false (and dangerous) doctrine.

For those of us who believe Scripture is the test of doctrine PSA is heresy.

If anyone is not sure, then print out a verse that states that God punished Jesus instead of punishing us. You can’t because it does not exist. BUT PSA depends on that extra-biblical idea.

This is important because Calvinism itself is based on the Theory of PSA being correct, and it is not even in the Bible.

 

[justbyfaith]

I am also now ignoring @John Caldwell and @Candidus.

For if my urgent plea for them to be saved did not avail, I sincerely doubt that there is much hope for them.

Perhaps there will be a delayed effect, in which the seeds planted will break through to them some day and they will repent.

In the meantime, they are preaching a gospel other than Paul's, and I believe that the Bible tells me to let them be accursed...that is, to not attempt to save them any more.

So I am leaving this thread. I suggest that those who believe in and trust in what Jesus did on the Cross for them, also do the same.

Rom 16:17, Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

Pro 19:27, Cease, my son, to hear the instruction that causeth to err from the words of knowledge.

Jer 13:17, But if ye will not hear it, my soul shall weep in secret places for your pride; and mine eye shall weep sore, and run down with tears, because the LORD'S flock is carried away captive.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Yes, Scripture tells us that Jesus died for His sheep, the Elect, the Body, His Bride. It also says that He died for the sins of the whole world in addition to this!

One side shows that His death is for all, but specifically for those who believe upon the Lord Jesus Christ and have it applied fully.

The sins of....is not found in the verse. It was added by the translators, so you are wrong once again. If you read solid teaching from gifted men like Berkhof you would not post such a blunder.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

I am also now ignoring @John Caldwell and @Candidus.

For if my urgent plea for them to be saved did not avail, I sincerely doubt that there is much hope for them.

Perhaps there will be a delayed effect, in which the seeds planted will break through to them some day and they will repent.

In the meantime, they are preaching a gospel other than Paul's, and I believe that the Bible tells me to let them be accursed...that is, to not attempt to save them any more.

So I am leaving this thread. I suggest that those who believe in and trust in what Jesus did on the Cross for them, also do the same.

Rom 16:17, Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

Pro 19:27, Cease, my son, to hear the instruction that causeth to err from the words of knowledge.

Jer 13:17, But if ye will not hear it, my soul shall weep in secret places for your pride; and mine eye shall weep sore, and run down with tears, because the LORD'S flock is carried away captive.

Well, false teachers feel the need to correct all people in church history. Only they have it right of course, so they inflict their error on us, even though no one asked them to do so,lol

 

[Candidus]

The sins of....is not found in the verse. It was added by the translators, so you are wrong once again. If you read solid teaching from gifted men like Berkhof you would not post such a blunder.

"And He is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our sins only, but also for the sins of the whole world." 1 Jn. 2:2. So, take it out and what do you get? "not for our sins only, but also for the whole world." Like a good little Berkhof Fatalist, you can deny it, but it is referring to The SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD!

Berkhof was a blundering boob that could not see his own bias and self-contradiction that was before his face.

 

[Candidus]

Well, false teachers feel the need to correct all people in church history. Only they have it right of course, so they inflict their error on us, even though no one asked them to do so,lol

So, the guy that can only appeal to recent history, mocks people who look at history! That is no answer, is it!

What do you do with the majority of people who believed the Gospel in history... which is the majority of history, that did not believe in the myth of Penal Substitution? We are o the side of history, you are the false teacher with your Johnny-come-Lately doctrine! You should feel at home with Joseph Smith and Charles Taze Russell!

 

[John Caldwell]

So, the guy that can only appeal to recent history, mocks people who look at history! That is no answer, is it!

What do you do with the majority of people who believed the Gospel in history... which is the majority of history, that did not believe in the myth of Penal Substitution? We are o the side of history, you are the false teacher with your Johnny-come-Lately doctrine! You should feel at home with Joseph Smith and Charles Taze Russell!

They are very much cult-like. They deny classic Christianity, historical Christianity, and Scripture.

They replace history with a claim the Church has always held their theory - nevermind no historical evidence exists of anyone in the early church teaching God punished Jesus instead of punishing us.

They replace Scripture with their philosophy - nevermind no passage exists stating God punished Jesus instead of punishing us.

They build their soteriology upon the PSA - nevermind no verse exists that says God punished Jesus instead of punishing us.

And they believe the the heresy with all that is in them. They have placed their faith in men and in humanistic, vain philosophy.

 

[bbyrd009]

God planned all of the events of the cross.
Our sins are so wicked that God had to come to earth as a substitute.

he said, with overwhelming confidence look Anthony, i am inclined to practice forgiveness, but even that has a breaking point ok, and no offense but you do not know like you prolly think you do sir. Yah is not some capricious god that needs sacrifices for sins, wadr, as Scripture makes abundantly clear even. Now you can play Esau as long as you like, but make no mistake that is just who you are

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

he said, with overwhelming confidence look Anthony, i am inclined to practice forgiveness, but even that has a breaking point ok, and no offense but you do not know like you prolly think you do sir. Yah is not some capricious god that needs sacrifices for sins, wadr, as Scripture makes abundantly clear even. Now you can play Esau as long as you like, but make no mistake that is just who you are

Do you believe Jesus is God who came to earth and took on a body of flesh?
Are you a Christian?

 

[bbyrd009]

Do you believe Jesus is God who came to earth and took on a body of flesh?

I said "you are elohim"

wadr it seems you are asking Qs merely to divide or exclude, Mr D

Are you a Christian?

well, depends i guess, but if by that you mean "Mithraist, Cult of Sol Invictus," then no. However Esau was not condemned for needing blood right, and I have not seen such faith from anyone in Israel was said of a Roman, too

now, any chance you might address my points?
if not, i understand ok, i bring them up precisely bc they are uncomfortable for "Christians"

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

I said "you are elohim"

wadr it seems you are asking Qs merely to divide or exclude, Mr D

well, depends i guess, but if by that you mean "Mithraist, Cult of Sol Invictus," then no. However Esau was not condemned for needing blood right, and I have not seen such faith from anyone in Israel was said of a Roman, too

now, any chance you might address my points?
if not, i understand ok, i bring them up precisely bc they are uncomfortable for "Christians"

There is no chance, I do not deal with incoherent posts like this one, and your other two cohorts.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Candidus,

Berkhof was a blundering boob that could not see his own bias and self-contradiction that was before his face.

Louis Berkhof
Louis Berkhof was an American-Dutch Reformed theologian whose works on systematic theology have been influential in seminaries and Bible colleges in the United States, Canada, Korea and with individual Christians in general throughout the 20th century.Wikipedia
Born:Oct 13, 1873, Emmen, Netherlands
Died:May 18, 1957, Grand Rapids, Michigan
Alma mater:Calvin Theological Seminary, Princeton Theological Seminary

He graduated from Calvin Theological Seminary in 1900 and accepted the call to be the pastor of the Allendale, Michigan First Christian Reformed Church. In 1902 he went to Princeton University for two years earning a B.D. degree. He then accepted the pastorship of the Oakdale Park Church in Grand Rapids. [1]

In 1906 he was appointed to the faculty of Calvin Theological Seminary. He assumed the presidency of the seminary in 1931, the year after the Hekman Seminary Building was dedicated on the Frankin Street campus, and served until retirement in 1944. Taking office during the troubled social and economic times of the Great Depression, Berkhof stressed the importance of maintaining orthodoxy in seminaries. Annual graduations from the seminary increased from 14 to 17 during his tenure. This modest increase occurred despite the fact that some felt the denomination's pulpits were over-supplied during the 1930s. Throughout he quietly sought to guide the denomination as well as the seminary through controversies that arose. [2]

A talented teacher and hard-working author, among his twenty-two books is Systematic Theology, which has been translated into several languages. In 1900 Berkhof married Reka Dijkhuis (d.1928). They had four children: Grace Meyer, William, Jean Stuk, and John. Later he married Dena Heyns-Joldersma (d.1984), who had two daughters, Joanne Heyns De Jong and Wilma Heyns Brouwer. [3]

Selected publications

• Systematic Theology. Eerdmans, 1932; New Combined Edition, 1996.
• The History of Christian Doctrines. Baker, 1978; Banner of Truth, revised, 1996.
• Principles of Biblical Interpretation. Baker Academic, 1981; republished, 1994.
• A Summary of Christian Doctrine. Eerdmans, 1939; Banner of Truth, 1960.

This tells us all we need to know about this poster and those who like his posting. He considers this accomplished person a "boob", and believes his posts and his friends carnal musings are more in line with biblical teaching.....Not so.

 

[bbyrd009]

There is no chance, I do not deal with incoherent posts like this one, and your other two cohorts.

you might consider whether those are only incoherent bc you are ignorant of the terms? But maybe for the best

There is no chance, I do not deal with incoherent posts like this one, and your other two cohorts.

superior much?

 

[bbyrd009]

There is no chance, I do not deal with incoherent posts like this one, and your other two cohorts.

im still a jerk too, fwiw. Ego is hard to overcome i guess; i have gone to what yall would consider prolly ridiculous extremes to sublimate my ego, and i gotta tell ya that worked for ezackly one day! lol

 

[John Caldwell]

im still a jerk too, fwiw. Ego is hard to overcome i guess; i have gone to what yall would consider prolly ridiculous extremes to sublimate my ego, and i gotta tell ya that worked for ezackly one day! lol

I feel ya bro! Lol.. Some folks just bring out the jerk in us. A few deserve it. Lol.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

he said, with overwhelming confidence look Anthony, i am inclined to practice forgiveness, but even that has a breaking point ok, and no offense but you do not know like you prolly think you do sir. Yah is not some capricious god that needs sacrifices for sins, wadr, as Scripture makes abundantly clear even. Now you can play Esau as long as you like, but make no mistake that is just who you are

im still a jerk too, fwiw. Ego is hard to overcome i guess; i have gone to what yall would consider prolly ridiculous extremes to sublimate my ego, and i gotta tell ya that worked for ezackly one day! lol

you might consider whether those are only incoherent bc you are ignorant of the terms? But maybe for the best

well, depends i guess, but if by that you mean "Mithraist, Cult of Sol Invictus," then no. However Esau was not condemned for needing blood right, and I have not seen such faith from anyone in Israel was said of a Roman, too

now, any chance you might address my points?
if not, i understand ok, i bring them up precisely bc they are uncomfortable for "Christians"

None of your posts are on this topic. If you expect a response make an attempt to address directly what is posted.

 

[John Caldwell]

I said "you are elohim"

wadr it seems you are asking Qs merely to divide or exclude, Mr D

well, depends i guess, but if by that you mean "Mithraist, Cult of Sol Invictus," then no. However Esau was not condemned for needing blood right, and I have not seen such faith from anyone in Israel was said of a Roman, too

now, any chance you might address my points?
if not, i understand ok, i bring them up precisely bc they are uncomfortable for "Christians"

True. There are a few "Christians" who substitute their theories for Christianity. And you are right, the fact Christian faith goes beyond our personal convictions, that it is focused on Christ and not traditions, makes many uncomfortable.