Was the Trinity included in Jesus’ gospel?

[Groundzero]

[font="Arial][b][size="5"]Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[/size] the[/b][/font]
[font="Arial][b] [/b][/font][/color][/size][font="Arial][b][size="7"]name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,[/b][/font]
[font="Arial][size="2"]Matthew 28:19[/size][/font][font="Arial][color="#800080"]
[/font]

If anything, this verse totally wipes the Trinity out! Are we all so blind that we cannot see that there is only ONE name!!!?????

 

[John Zain]

Pardon me, but what was the name of Mary Jesus? What are brackets doing there then???

Sorry for the stupid error. The verse should read ...

Luke 1:35
“The Holy Spirit will come upon you (Mary), and the power of the Highest will overshadow you;
therefore, also, that Holy One (Jesus) who is to be born will be called the Son of (Father) God.”

If anything, this verse totally wipes the Trinity out!
Are we all so blind that we cannot see that there is only ONE name!!!?????

Let's all write Jesus and tell Him that He should have said ...
"... in the name of the Father, and in the name of the Son, and in the name of the Holy Spirit
... hey, you guys, don't forget all three names, okay? ..."
Yeah, I agree, that would have been much better. Thanks.
It's so great that a blind guy (me) can even type this at all.

 

[Rev.Boris]

Belantos, There is one thing you should know :
Galatians 5:14


And if you try to read some of the Bible you would understand that:



Galatians 5

"Freedom in Christ
[sup]1[/sup] It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery. [sup]2[/sup] Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. [sup]3[/sup] Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. [sup]4[/sup] You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. [sup]5[/sup] For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope. [sup]6[/sup] For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. "







And remember :


1 Corinthians 10:23

 

[Groundzero]

Let's all write Jesus and tell Him that He should have said ...
"... in the name of the Father, and in the name of the Son, and in the name of the Holy Spirit
... hey, you guys, don't forget all three names, okay? ..."
Yeah, I agree, that would have been much better. Thanks.
It's so great that a blind guy (me) can even type this at all.

I think you missed my point. If they all have the same name, couldn't it be because they are the same? Those titles all belong to ONE person, Jesus Christ. Not three.

 

[Prentis]

Im not entering the debate and Im not taking a position. But I would like to point something out here, groundzero.

I havent studied Greek that much, but one thing I looked over is that the word for name means in sorts authority. It could be translated 'in the authority of'. In wich case things are still open-ended. They walk after all in the same authority since they LIVE as one (even if they are/arent).

I personally have a hard time grasping all this. It remains a sort of mystery. I remember reading on a forum what an elder was saying (he was like an uncle in the Lord to me), how he had come to see that they are not one in the sense that we often mean it. I quite frankly dont quite get it. And that's fine. If the Lord wishes to open my understanding then I'd be glad to 'get it'. If not, I'm fine with just trusting for now

 

[Groundzero]

Im not entering the debate and Im not taking a position. But I would like to point something out here, groundzero.

I havent studied Greek that much, but one thing I looked over is that the word for name means in sorts authority. It could be translated 'in the authority of'. In wich case things are still open-ended. They walk after all in the same authority since they LIVE as one (even if they are/arent).

I personally have a hard time grasping all this. It remains a sort of mystery. I remember reading on a forum what an elder was saying (he was like an uncle in the Lord to me), how he had come to see that they are not one in the sense that we often mean it. I quite frankly dont quite get it. And that's fine. If the Lord wishes to open my understanding then I'd be glad to 'get it'. If not, I'm fine with just trusting for now

That's exactly what a name is! When it comes to the Trinity, people like to take their stance there first instead of Scripture. If we start from Scripture, we will have the view that God is ONE! One in every sense! Jesus is supreme deity, he is ALL that God is!

Col_2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

 

[Prentis]

Again, Im not taking a stance. I will simply argue because I still see an open ended possibility.

If a man marries a woman, they become one household, and they have one authority, one name. If God is in perfect unity and oneness, then he has one authority.

I do not think of God as a trinity that has 3 divided persons. At the same time, I have a hard time hearing expressions like '3 manifestations'... Im not saying it's incorrect. I'm saying I don't see it or understand it and therefore refrain from judgment.

This really is something that isn't clear to me.

 

[lawrance]

That's exactly what a name is! When it comes to the Trinity, people like to take their stance there first instead of Scripture. If we start from Scripture, we will have the view that God is ONE! One in every sense! Jesus is supreme deity, he is ALL that God is!

Col_2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

How does anyone get to know God then, if it's not from the Spirit ?
Their is one person you could say, that being you or me or anyone other and then they comprehend what the Spirit is ? thats one ?

Then they comprehend who Jesus Christ is ? that's two ?

Then their is the Father? that's three ?

All three are one ? we have unity with God and their is no other way to comprehend God and any other way is just vague comprehension of God.

The Jews are barking up the wrong tree as are the others and even some so called Christians.

 

[Groundzero]

Again, Im not taking a stance. I will simply argue because I still see an open ended possibility.

If a man marries a woman, they become one household, and they have one authority, one name. If God is in perfect unity and oneness, then he has one authority.

I do not think of God as a trinity that has 3 divided persons. At the same time, I have a hard time hearing expressions like '3 manifestations'... Im not saying it's incorrect. I'm saying I don't see it or understand it and therefore refrain from judgment.

This really is something that isn't clear to me.

I can see what you are saying. Think about it though, what does the Bible expressly teach about God? He is ONE! Wouldn't God have told us if there were three persons that acted differently, etc? I think so. When God said he was ONE, he meant it as ONE! Interestingly, the Trinity is summed up as a mystery. Pray, tell me, where in Scripture do we find such a statement? I'll tell you what mystery we find in Scripture: How God was manifest in flesh! That was a mystery! Even worse, in the foundation of the Trinity, the Athanasian Creed, it says that whoever wishes to be saved must believe the Trinity! God help us! Where do we find that in Scripture!?


1Ti_3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

How does anyone get to know God then, if it's not from the Spirit ?
Their is one person you could say, that being you or me or anyone other and then they comprehend what the Spirit is ? thats one ?

Then they comprehend who Jesus Christ is ? that's two ?

Then their is the Father? that's three ?

All three are one ? we have unity with God and their is no other way to comprehend God and any other way is just vague comprehension of God.

The Jews are barking up the wrong tree as are the others and even some so called Christians.

Oh yeah? Since when did Father become an actual name that distinguishes who a person is!? Since when did the Holy Ghost become an actual name? The Son? None of them are names! They are just titles, and they all belong to one! JESUS!

I'll tell you who the Spirit is: Jesus! Joh_14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

I'll tell you who the Son is: Jesus! Luk_1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

I'll tell you who the Father is: Jesus! Isa_9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

I don't see any proof in Scripture of distinct persons. All I see, are three titles, ONE person!

 

[John Zain]

If a man marries a woman, they become one household, and they have one authority, one name.
If God is in perfect unity and oneness, then he has one authority.

Very nicely put. And I'd say it's not completely clear to anyone ...

“For My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways My ways”, says the Lord.
“For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways,
and My thoughts (higher) than your thoughts.” (Isaiah 55:8-9)

 

[John Zain]

... the Athanasian Creed, it says that whoever wishes to be saved must believe the Trinity!
God help us! Where do we find that in Scripture!
I don't see any proof in Scripture of distinct persons. All I see, are three titles, ONE person!

Jesus warned, "... if you do not believe that I AM, you will die in your sins." John 8:24

But, PROVING you MUST believe the Holy Spirit is God to be saved is more difficult.

Christians believe that God the Son totally "encompassed" the man Jesus to make Him "fully God".

So, how do you view all of those verses where Jesus is praying to Father God?

 

[Comm.Arnold]

There is not a single passage that teaches that Jesus "came down to Earth", on the contrary, Paul clearly stated, "....concerning God's son, Yeshua the Messiah, our Master, the one who comes from the [patrilineal] seed of David according to the flesh and the one who was designated son of God in power according to the spirit of Holiness by reason of a resurrection from the dead...." [Romans 1.1-4]

The early Greek fathers, who adopted the virginal conception idea from their Pagan beliefs, proposed that God impregnated a man's wife behind his back, and when he found out about it, told him that he was to put up with it. This is a character alien to God and insulting to Him.

On the other hand there were many Greek mythological heroes that had virgin births, even Plato:

"It is said, even when he was still alive, that Plato was of divine birth. The story, no doubt developed much after Plato's death, goes that the figure of god Apollo came to Plato's virgin mother, Perictione, and impregnated her. When his father, Ariston, attempted to lie with her, the god appeared to him in a vision, commanding him to abstain from her for ten months until the child was born.

...


By a frugal life and strict personal care, Plato lived to a great age. He died willfully on his own birthday, being exactly 81 years of age. The number 81 is holy. It is the called the "squared-squared number", and is the square of the number of Muses, the choir of his god Apollo.

On this Seneca wrote, "You know, I am sure, that Plato had the good fortune, thanks to his careful living, to die on his birthday, after exactly completing his eighty-first year. For this reason wise men of the East, who happened to be in Athens at that time, sacrificed to him after his death, believing that his length of days was too full for a mortal man, since he had rounded out the perfect number of nine times nine. I do not doubt that he would have been quite willing to forgo a few days from this total, as well as the sacrifice."

http://www.platonic-....org/plato.html

Interestingly, the Hebrew version of Matthew used by the Ebionites (who were the Jews that escaped from Jerusalem and were led by Jesus' brothers) lacked the birth narrative...

Are you one of those Zeitgeisters trying to spread the rumour that christ is a copied story ? Every single one of those examples is a complete lie.

 

[Groundzero]

Jesus warned, "... if you do not believe that I AM, you will die in your sins." John 8:24

But, PROVING you MUST believe the Holy Spirit is God to be saved is more difficult.

Christians believe that God the Son totally "encompassed" the man Jesus to make Him "fully God".

So, how do you view all of those verses where Jesus is praying to Father God?

If you believe in the dual nature of Jesus Christ, the fact that he said the above is not a surprise. If you don't believe that he is God, you WILL die in your sins.

You don't have to prove that the Holy Spirit is God! All you have to prove is that Jesus was the Holy Ghost! Of course, that flat rejects the Trinity!

Jesus prayed for two reasons:

1. Jesus Christ was both humanity and deity. According to Scripture, all flesh must pray.Psa_65:2 O thou that hearest prayer, unto thee shall all flesh come.

2. To be our example. 1Pe_2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:

While Jesus prayed, here's something interesting: He also was the ONE who ANSWERED PRAYER!
Joh_14:14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

Great is the mystery of godliness. God was manifest in the flesh! The man Jesus prayed as humanity, but as deity, he was the one who answered prayer!

Jesus warned, "... if you do not believe that I AM, you will die in your sins." John 8:24

But, PROVING you MUST believe the Holy Spirit is God to be saved is more difficult.

Christians believe that God the Son totally "encompassed" the man Jesus to make Him "fully God".

So, how do you view all of those verses where Jesus is praying to Father God?

One more thing: The ONLY way Jesus can be 'fully God' is if he IS the Father and the Holy Ghost as well as the Son!

 

[lawrance]

I can see what you are saying. Think about it though, what does the Bible expressly teach about God? He is ONE! Wouldn't God have told us if there were three persons that acted differently, etc? I think so. When God said he was ONE, he meant it as ONE! Interestingly, the Trinity is summed up as a mystery. Pray, tell me, where in Scripture do we find such a statement? I'll tell you what mystery we find in Scripture: How God was manifest in flesh! That was a mystery! Even worse, in the foundation of the Trinity, the Athanasian Creed, it says that whoever wishes to be saved must believe the Trinity! God help us! Where do we find that in Scripture!?


1Ti_3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.




Oh yeah? Since when did Father become an actual name that distinguishes who a person is!? Since when did the Holy Ghost become an actual name? The Son? None of them are names! They are just titles, and they all belong to one! JESUS!

I'll tell you who the Spirit is: Jesus! Joh_14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

I'll tell you who the Son is: Jesus! Luk_1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

I'll tell you who the Father is: Jesus! Isa_9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

I don't see any proof in Scripture of distinct persons. All I see, are three titles, ONE person!

Because all three are one in the Spirit, but three separate idenitys.
God the Father is one.
God the Son is two.
And the Spirit is the one that we partake in.
So when we are in the Spirit we are at one with the Son and the Son is at one with the Father.

The Bible is just a book bro ? so do you think you could do an apprenticeship and become a fully qualified hands on contractor by just reading books.

Some people run around stating verse this and verse that just to peddle their own simple views but they can't fathom the bigger picture.
When people try to distort the trinity they are delusional and run around dreaming up all types of rubbish to state their case.
Their was no trinity in the OT because Jesus had not came to fulfil. so their was only you and God and the picture or the blue print was all we had to go by. so when Jesus came he enlightened all. so anyone who pushes an only just God doctrine is pushing a rejection of Christ, as he is our only Lord and Saviour.
The trinity is a mystery, but it can be comprehended in the Spirit. and without the Spirit people have no comprehension of it at all but just end up barking up the wrong tree.
So Christians have to endure with this type of poor foolish worldly concepts belligerently aimed at attacking Christ.

 

[Groundzero]

Because all three are one in the Spirit, but three separate idenitys.
God the Father is one.
God the Son is two.
And the Spirit is the one that we partake in.
So when we are in the Spirit we are at one with the Son and the Son is at one with the Father.

Perhaps you have heard of this Scripture verse: 1 Co. 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
I have read stuff that went over my head, but I can tell you right now, that if what you just explained is logical, then it was about 1,000 miles over my head!!!! God is simple, his laws are simple. The Trinity is not only complex, it doesn't make sense.

The Bible is just a book bro ? so do you think you could do an apprenticeship and become a fully qualified hands on contractor by just reading books.

Some people run around stating verse this and verse that just to peddle their own simple views but they can't fathom the bigger picture.
When people try to distort the trinity they are delusional and run around dreaming up all types of rubbish to state their case.

What do you mean by that? I don't claim to be a fully qualified bible teacher or anything. Oooooo! What big picture? some picture that man has drawn up!? Show me the 'rubbish' that I have used! I can think of some really rubbish 'Trinity' verses! For the onlookers, please note, I have barely even had to look in my Bible, since atm, all I've been faced with is a whole lot of sentences with NO authority behind them! Show me the proof in Scripture! Unless of course you don't believe Scripture is essential. Then I don't know what I am doing discussing this with you!

Their was no trinity in the OT because Jesus had not came to fulfil. so their was only you and God and the picture or the blue print was all we had to go by. so when Jesus came he enlightened all. so anyone who pushes an only just God doctrine is pushing a rejection of Christ, as he is our only Lord and Saviour.

Hmmmm. So apparently I am suppose to be reading alot about the Trinity in the NT. Sorry, the NT declares the SAME God as the OT.

Mar_12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:


1Co_8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. (Seems to be that there is ONE God who is the Father, and that he created everything. It seems to be that Jesus created everything as well. It only works if Jesus IS the Father, not a distinct identity)

Eph_4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. (Who is inside the believer? The Holy Ghost! Do we have two separate identities inside the believer? NO! We have ONE identity with different titles! Just like I have different titles! I am a son, an editor, and a footy player. Are they all different identities? NO! They all belong to one, me, Joses!)

Tell me, dear friend, how I deny the supreme deity of Jesus? As far as I was aware, I have made Jesus SUPREME Deity, because a god who is not over ALL, is not god at all!

The trinity is a mystery, but it can be comprehended in the Spirit. and without the Spirit people have no comprehension of it at all but just end up barking up the wrong tree.
So Christians have to endure with this type of poor foolish worldly concepts belligerently aimed at attacking Christ.

Where's the Scripture for that? It doesn't speak of a mystery of Trinity, it speaks of the mystery of godliness, God manifest in flesh (let's leap even further here, if it truly means God, does that mean (if you believe the Trinity) that the man Christ Jesus had THREE separate identities inside him? I don't think so! God was manifest in the flesh as Jesus Christ! The ONE and ONLY GOD!)

How in the world am I attacking Christ? I don't make him 1/3, and I don't make him 'a god'. I make him SUPREME deity, because that is what he IS!!!! If I am attacking Christ, I hate to think what you are doing to him!

 

[John Zain]

While Jesus prayed, here's something interesting: He also was the ONE who ANSWERED PRAYER!
Joh_14:14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
Great is the mystery of godliness.

Great is the mystery of Groundzero, that's for sure.
You are implying that Jesus answered His own prayers. Choose your words carefully.
John 14:14 was a promise to believers, not to Himself.

 

[Groundzero]

Great is the mystery of Groundzero, that's for sure.
You are implying that Jesus answered His own prayers. Choose your words carefully.
John 14:14 was a promise to believers, not to Himself.

I have chosen my words carefully . Why should it amaze someone that the OMNIPRESENT, OMNIPOTENT God is not capable of doing that?

Jesus told his disciples that the Father would answer the prayers they asked in his name. In another place he told them that he would answer their requests. There is only one explanation for this: Jesus is the Father.

If we wish to stick to the Trinity, these are the ramifications: if the Father, an individual identity according to the Trinity, answered Jesus' prayers, that means that the Father is greater! Therefore, why pray to Jesus? I think I'll just pray to the Father, thank you! The reason we pray to Jesus, is because Jesus IS the Father!

 

[lawrance]

I have chosen my words carefully . Why should it amaze someone that the OMNIPRESENT, OMNIPOTENT God is not capable of doing that?

Jesus told his disciples that the Father would answer the prayers they asked in his name. In another place he told them that he would answer their requests. There is only one explanation for this: Jesus is the Father.

If we wish to stick to the Trinity, these are the ramifications: if the Father, an individual identity according to the Trinity, answered Jesus' prayers, that means that the Father is greater! Therefore, why pray to Jesus? I think I'll just pray to the Father, thank you! The reason we pray to Jesus, is because Jesus IS the Father!

Jesus is not the Father but as one with the Father.
I am sorry to say that your position on the trinity is so and i think it's to do with a dictatorial perception of the Bible. but could be some how just some sort of idolatry ?
What denomination are you.
You are pushing a OT stance.

 

[lawrance]

Perhaps you have heard of this Scripture verse: 1 Co. 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
I have read stuff that went over my head, but I can tell you right now, that if what you just explained is logical, then it was about 1,000 miles over my head!!!! God is simple, his laws are simple. The Trinity is not only complex, it doesn't make sense.


The trinity is simple if viewed from the correct position.
==========================================





What do you mean by that? I don't claim to be a fully qualified bible teacher or anything. Oooooo! What big picture? some picture that man has drawn up!? Show me the 'rubbish' that I have used! I can think of some really rubbish 'Trinity' verses! For the onlookers, please note, I have barely even had to look in my Bible, since atm, all I've been faced with is a whole lot of sentences with NO authority behind them! Show me the proof in Scripture! Unless of course you don't believe Scripture is essential. Then I don't know what I am doing discussing this with you!

Scripture is essential, but one can get lost with only scripture.
===============================================

Hmmmm. So apparently I am suppose to be reading alot about the Trinity in the NT. Sorry, the NT declares the SAME God as the OT.

Yes it does decare the same God, but Jesus has come.
===========================================


Mar_12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:


1Co_8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. (Seems to be that there is ONE God who is the Father, and that he created everything. It seems to be that Jesus created everything as well. It only works if Jesus IS the Father, not a distinct identity)

Eph_4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. (Who is inside the believer? The Holy Ghost! Do we have two separate identities inside the believer? NO! We have ONE identity with different titles! Just like I have different titles! I am a son, an editor, and a footy player. Are they all different identities? NO! They all belong to one, me, Joses!)

Tell me, dear friend, how I deny the supreme deity of Jesus? As far as I was aware, I have made Jesus SUPREME Deity, because a god who is not over ALL, is not god at all!



Jesus is the Son not the Father. so Jesus is our Lord and saviour, no one comes to the Father but through the Son.
===================================================================================



Where's the Scripture for that? It doesn't speak of a mystery of Trinity, it speaks of the mystery of godliness, God manifest in flesh (let's leap even further here, if it truly means God, does that mean (if you believe the Trinity) that the man Christ Jesus had THREE separate identities inside him? I don't think so! God was manifest in the flesh as Jesus Christ! The ONE and ONLY GOD!)


You are looking at it all wrong, no one can come to Christ with out the Spirit.
===========================================================


How in the world am I attacking Christ? I don't make him 1/3, and I don't make him 'a god'. I make him SUPREME deity, because that is what he IS!!!! If I am attacking Christ, I hate to think what you are doing to him!

WELL the point is you are coming at it all wrong. one that the delinquent Jewish religion would like to push for one.
The reason why i call them delinquent is because they had the opportunity to go forward but rejected the truth of Israel.

 

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[21] Now when all the people were baptized, and when Jesus also had been baptized and was praying, the heavens were opened, [22] and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form, like a dove; and a voice came from heaven, “You are my beloved Son; with you I am well pleased.” (Luke 3:21-22 ESV)

I think this is a pretty clear representation of the three person's of the Godhead in action, and even though it is right at the beginning of Jesus journey/teaching, I think it's hugely important.

Actions, especially God's actions, speak louder than words...to those who seek the truth and wish to know His heart.

To others the ways of evasion, deceit and disbelief pave the way to hell's heart.