Was the Trinity included in Jesus’ gospel?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

belantos

New Member
Nov 12, 2010
184
3
0
Not at all. I realize that you have been mislead in your doctrine. I am called to love you no matter how confused you are. Your viewpoint is not the problem I am pointing out; it is the fact that you are teaching your false ideas. I am just giving you a friendly heads up, carry on :)

Aspen, you forget that I was once a trinitarian. I know evangelical doctrine back to front. But I am convinced that it is wrong. My quest is to discover the original apostolic teaching, who were Jews, not Christians, just as Jesus himself was a Jew and practiced Judaism, not Hellenistic Christianity. I am convinced that I have made great advances. I took into consideration a lot of new knowledge and discoveries.

I am not here to proselytise. It is none of my business if people continue in their Hellenistic religion. But it is my hope that some will read my posts and to them they will make sense and will respond to God's calling and leave behind the Hellenistic religion.
 

aspen

“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Apr 25, 2012
14,111
4,778
113
53
West Coast
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I am not here to proselytise. It is none of my business if people continue in their Hellenistic religion. But it is my hope that some will read my posts and to them they will make sense and will respond to God's calling and leave behind the Hellenistic religion.

Really? Because it sure looks like you are:

"I think it is time for all those who truly love God to hear His call and come out of the Paganised Hellenistic idolatrous Babylonian system. Many hears His voice and repent from worshipping their pantheon of three gods."

I've entertained a lot of Mormon missionaries at my door and they haven't been shy about their purpose for visiting me, but they have never been this bold. Do you apply a 2x4 across the forehead along with your heresy when you are actually proselytizing?

In addition, I want to add a statement from a man who follows the Torah, which concludes an article on Jesus:

My intention in this article is to simply articulate why belief in Jesus is incompatible with Judaism. I apologize in advance in case I have offended anyone unintentionally. Jewish beliefs prefer that non-Jews SHOULD believe in some form of monotheism, and while Jews don't proselytize, they encourage gentiles to believe and attend their churches.



 

belantos

New Member
Nov 12, 2010
184
3
0
Really? Because it sure looks like you are:

"I think it is time for all those who truly love God to hear His call and come out of the Paganised Hellenistic idolatrous Babylonian system. Many hears His voice and repent from worshipping their pantheon of three gods."



Yes, I am here to teach Christians and debate with them. To set them free from Hellenism. I am not calling them to my religion, that would be proselytising, but to do their own research and come to their own conclusions. Seek out the resources and do your own studies.

I've entertained a lot of Mormon missionaries at my door and they haven't been shy about their purpose for visiting me, but they have never been this bold. Do you apply a 2x4 across the forehead along with your heresy when you are actually proselytizing?



Don't forget that "heresy" is relative. It is always the victor that writes history and declares who the heretics are. This happened in the early centuries when the Hellenists subdued all others. But in reality they were the heretics.

In addition, I want to add a statement from a man who follows the Torah, which concludes an article on Jesus:

[font="Arial][size="4"]My intention in this article is to simply articulate why belief in Jesus is incompatible with Judaism. I apologize in advance in case I have offended anyone unintentionally. Jewish beliefs prefer that non-Jews SHOULD believe in some form of monotheism, and while Jews don't proselytize, they encourage gentiles to believe and attend their churches.[/size][/font]


Jews believe that they will be a priestly nation in the Kingdom. This is the covenant they are under. They don't proselytise Gentiles because all nations cannot become priests. They are happy with Gentiles as long as they worship the one true God. In acts these Gentiles were called God-fearers.

The Abrahamic covenant ("you shall be the father of many nations") is what Jesus brought to the Gentiles. So no, Gentiles don't need to convert to Judaism to be counted right with God (this applies to the Gentile followers of Jesus) as long as they don't worship a pantheon of gods...


 

Duckybill

New Member
Feb 12, 2010
3,416
44
0
The term "Christian" has been hijacked by the Greeks in the 4th century, so I don't call myself a Christian. I am a Gentile convert to the faith of the apostles.
Your 'faith' shows little resemblance to our English Bibles, to be kind.
You are committing the sin of "motzi shemra", the making of untrue remarks, which is akin to slander or defamation.
And that's your opinion. Anyone who can read knows you don't believe the Bible. Your problem.
The subject of this thread is whether the trinity was included in the gospel of Jesus. If you cannot focus of the subject, you should stay away from the thread, but you must not insult people - else how will you will avoid hell.
Well then, you are VERY off topic.

 

belantos

New Member
Nov 12, 2010
184
3
0

Your 'faith' shows little resemblance to our English Bibles, to be kind.

And that's your opinion. Anyone who can read knows you don't believe the Bible. Your problem.

Well then, you are VERY off topic.


I did not talk about the English bibles, but the faith of the apostles. They didn't have your English bibles.

Oh, you are certainly good at discerning. Your statement reveals that you understood nothing about what I was trying to show you. Your heart is hardened. You read, but don't understand it. You are as stubborn as the Pharisees of Jesus' day and as insulting.

Where is love? Kindness? Patience? Gentleness? These are not your qualities, yet, you keep talking about the Spirit. If you had the Spirit you would have these, but you lack them, you don't even have as much as an atheist. I seriously suggest you take a deep self examination to see if your heart is right with God.

You claim you are, but reality shows different. And when words and actions disagree I believe actions. Your actions speak so loud that I cannot hear what you are saying.

Your actions screem that you do not know the Almighty.
 

Duckybill

New Member
Feb 12, 2010
3,416
44
0
I did not talk about the English bibles, but the faith of the apostles. They didn't have your English bibles.
No kidding? Doesn't your god know how to communicate in English?
Oh, you are certainly good at discerning. Your statement reveals that you understood nothing about what I was trying to show you. Your heart is hardened. You read, but don't understand it. You are as stubborn as the Pharisees of Jesus' day and as insulting.
I understood quite well. You are trying to deceive others as you have been deceived by Satan.
Where is love? Kindness? Patience? Gentleness? These are not your qualities, yet, you keep talking about the Spirit. If you had the Spirit you would have these, but you lack them, you don't even have as much as an atheist. I seriously suggest you take a deep self examination to see if your heart is right with God.
The love is in warning you that you are headed for the Lake of Fire.
You claim you are, but reality shows different. And when words and actions disagree I believe actions. Your actions speak so loud that I cannot hear what you are saying.

Your actions screem that you do not know the Almighty.

John 1:1 (ESV)
[sup]1 [/sup]In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:14 (ESV)
[sup]14 [/sup]And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

 

belantos

New Member
Nov 12, 2010
184
3
0
No kidding? Doesn't your god know how to communicate in English?


Do you actually understand English sentences? I said, the apostles didn't have your English bibles. The last time I checked they knew Hebrew and perhaps Greek.




I understood quite well. You are trying to deceive others as you have been deceived by Satan.



There is not a drop of deception in the expositions I gave. The deception originated from those who fulfilled the prophecies about the apostasy that occurred from the middle of the second century. Outside of Christianity all scholars, who deal with the period knows it. Go and learn from them.

The love is in warning you that you are headed for the Lake of Fire.


John 1:1 (ESV)
[sup]1 [/sup]In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:14 (ESV)
[sup]14 [/sup]And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

You are gravely mistaken and filled with hate. You do not know God.

And because of your hateful attitude our conversation is over.
 

Duckybill

New Member
Feb 12, 2010
3,416
44
0

Do you actually understand English sentences? I said, the apostles didn't have your English bibles. The last time I checked they knew Hebrew and perhaps Greek.

Let's see, God understands Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek and yes indeed English!
There is not a drop of deception in the expositions I gave.
A ton maybe?
You are gravely mistaken and filled with hate. You do not know God.

And because of your hateful attitude our conversation is over.
Ok, you lose.

John 1:1 (ESV)
[sup]1 [/sup]In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:14 (ESV)
[sup]14 [/sup]And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.
 

John Zain

Newbie trainee
Sep 16, 2010
750
32
0
San Diego, CA
Belantos,

I don't mean to be ganging up on you here ... but ...

Haven't you seen the 70+ verses that all POINT TO the fact that:
the Scriptures show-teach-reveal:
Jesus is God
Jesus is equal to the Father
Jesus is the Creator
Jesus is the Sustainer now
Jesus is the Giver of eternal life

Now, this all stops being so ridiculous, IF you maintain that
God's most Holy and Precious Scriptures were drastically altered to teach the Triune God
... and IF you can show some reasonable evidence for such.

But, since the Muslims in 1700 years have failed to do this, you will not be successful.
 

Groundzero

Not Afraid To Stand
Jul 20, 2011
819
35
0
29
Australia

This is NOT arguing against the Trinity … I believe in the Triune Godhead.

Jesus went around to all of the villages and towns preaching the gospel ... His gospel.
And later, Jesus commanded His disciples to preach His gospel to the ends of the earth.
Jesus’ gospel (good news, glad tidings, etc.), not Paul's gospel, nor anyone else's gospel.
And this obviously has nothing to do with the Nicean Creed from 325 a.d.

Note:
There is some difference between Jesus’ preaching of His gospel to the multitudes
compared to His teaching to His disciples (especially at the end of His ministry).
To the mutlitudes … was the Holy Spirit ever included?
To the disciples … the Holy Spirit was included,
especially in His great farewell discourse ... see a great Trinity passage: John 14:16-26.

Two sources of belief in the Trinity:
1) being born into a family, culture, etc. which has “blind faith” in it.
2) being given a further spiritual revelation (beyond a belief in the gospel).

My bottom line
The Trinity was never a part of the simple gospel that Jesus preached to the multitudes.
A belief in the Trinity often needs to come from a spiritual revelation.

Are you able to show me verses of Jesus' preaching (in the 4 gospels)
where the Trinity is a part of His gospel?

Note:
This has led many (including Muslims) to insist that Paul preached a different gospel.
But, let us realize that Jesus and Paul preached to 2 totally different audiences:
Jesus preached to the multitudes (none of which had the Holy Spirit).
Paul’s letters were to the churches (most of whom had the Holy Spirit).

What spiritual revelation?! If a spiritual revelation is contrary to Scripture, it's not of God. There is no base in Scripture for the Trinity, neither will there be. As I have said so many times, why do we need to take a view taught by men and try and mould the Bible to it? Why not take the Bible and mould OUR views to it? The Bible never mentions three persons, it mentions the holy ONE, it mentions ONE God, it mentions ONE Almighty. Instead of trying to prove the Trinity Scripturally, why not start on what the Bible states and work from there?!

Belantos,

I don't mean to be ganging up on you here ... but ...

Haven't you seen the 70+ verses that all POINT TO the fact that:
the Scriptures show-teach-reveal:
Jesus is God
Jesus is equal to the Father
Jesus is the Creator
Jesus is the Sustainer now
Jesus is the Giver of eternal life

Now, this all stops being so ridiculous, IF you maintain that
God's most Holy and Precious Scriptures were drastically altered to teach the Triune God
... and IF you can show some reasonable evidence for such.

But, since the Muslims in 1700 years have failed to do this, you will not be successful.



Ummm, if Jesus is equal to the Father, have we ever considered that it might be because he IS the Father?! If Jesus is the Creator, doesn't that make HIM the Father?! The Scriptures do NOT teach about a Triune God. They teach of ONE God who manifest himself in flesh. Divinity and humanity FUSED but not CONFUSED.

 

John Zain

Newbie trainee
Sep 16, 2010
750
32
0
San Diego, CA
There is no base in Scripture for the Trinity, neither will there be.
The Bible never mentions three persons
Okay, my next nuke is headed for GroundZero in Newcastle.

But first, I have enough time for ...

There are 10+ Scripture passages which have all 3 Persons
of the Triune Godhead in each passage.

Wanna, wanna, see 'em?

 

Groundzero

Not Afraid To Stand
Jul 20, 2011
819
35
0
29
Australia
Okay, my next nuke is headed for GroundZero in Newcastle.

But first, I have enough time for ...

There are 10+ Scripture passages which have all 3 Persons
of the Triune Godhead in each passage.

Wanna, wanna, see 'em?




Lol. That's funny. Unfortunately, we are a nuclear-free zone!

Great. Let's see them!

As a note, there are 50+ passages supporting ONE God!

 

lawrance

New Member
Mar 30, 2011
738
19
0
There is no movement called "the Way", I only gave it to you because you asked for a name. The early Jewish disciples used that name because they were zealous for the Torah and the "way" is a reference to faithful Torah obedience.

Let me give you a bit of an overview.

Covenants are promises. They are made between two parties and are valid as long as both of them are alive / exist. Newer covenants may build on an existing one, but it never replaces it. Therefore, the new covenant of Jesus doesn't replace the covenant God made with Israel, which is, "You are my people and I am your God". The Torah describes how you live within that covenant, that is, it describes the covenant relationship.

A covenant cannot be broken, only the covenant relationship can be, which needs to be renewed. This way, when the sinful of Israel return to God they renew their covenant relationship with God.



===========================================================================================================================

When the sinful of Israel return to God ?? The so called sinful are not Israel and never were. as it's the dogs that are out side is it not. they are just Jews.

=========================================================================================================================





Jeremiah's new covenant is not a brand new covenant with a brand new set of laws, but a placing of the existing laws within the hearts of the Jewish people. In that sense, it is still the existing covenant with a new way of giving of the Torah (ie, not in written form that people had to internalise - put in the heart).

The covenant of the Jews go back to Abraham's promise about the seed in whom all families of the world will be blessed. Gentiles were never under this covenant, but under the one God made with Noah. Hence, Melchizedek was the high priest of God within that covenant, in which the laws of Noah applied.

Now Jesus utilises another covenant, which seems to go back to an earlier promise God made to Abraham, that he shall be the father of many nations. This includes both Jews and Gentiles who mimic his faithfulness. Jews were already in that covenant because the other Abrahamic and the Mosaic covenants build on it (their covenant even includes the Noahide and Adamite covenants).

But Gentiles before were not God's people and are now called into this covenant by a man who showed what faithful life they were expected to live. Those who immerse themselves into the faithful life of Jesus to the point of death, that is, they repent (die to the old sinful life) and mimic live the righteous life Jesus lived, are the ones who died to their old man and being born again live in the newness of life. The entry into this covenant is by repentance and faith, which faith (the faith of Abraham) which includes righteous conduct. This is how Gentile converts are drawn near and become partakers in this covenant.

There are two views regarding what laws are required of Gentile converts:

1. the Jerusalem council lists the laws of Noah with additional laws may be required depending on local conditions (the reason given is that Moses has been preached in their cities).

Acts 15:19 Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles, 20 but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood. 21 For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”

Acts 21:25 But concerning the Gentiles who have believed, we wrote, having decided that they should abstain from meat sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from fornication.”​

2. the Jerusalem council lists the laws of the "ger" from Lev 17-18 as core laws required for peaceful co-existence between Jewish and Gentile believers. Gentile believers then would receive the full Torah training over the years and could voluntarily convert.

If you ask my opinion, these are basic laws that were expected from all Gentiles to be counted righteous, independently of their beliefs in Jesus, whether these are derived from Lev 17-18 or from the Noahide laws, but Gentile converts were encouraged to observe as much of the Torah as they could. Hence Paul could write:

Romans 2
14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them
...
25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.​

Paul is not saying that Gentiles become Jews by observing the Torah, he only illustrates that it is not circumcision, but obedience that matters. Indeed, physical circumcision carries the symbolic meaning of repentance - putting away the old flesh, cutting it off, and you cannot take it back.

The Noahide laws fall into 7 categories:

Prohibition of Idolatry
Prohibition of Murder
Prohibition of Theft
Prohibition of Sexual immorality
Prohibition of Blasphemy
Prohibition of eating flesh taken from an animal while it is still alive (you can knock it unconscious, the only way you know it is dead is if you pour out all of its blood)
Establishment of courts of law

You notice that the letter of the council doesn't mention theft or murder. Does that mean these were OK? I doubt. My take is that the council's letter simply mentioned the core laws that Gentiles were generally guilty of breaking, therefore they needed to be emphasised. They were certainly expected to observe the full list of the laws of Noah.

Gen 9:5
...And from every man, from every man’s brother I will require the life of man.

This is the prohibition of murder and the prohibition of assisted suicide (euthanasia).

So the conclusion is that no, Gentiles didn't have to convert to Judaism in order to be considered saved and be counted as the people of God. But since the Torah was given as the light to the world, and those "who lived in great darkness saw a great light", we are encouraged to observe as much of it as we can (without coming under its condemnation if we don't - you remember, we are not obliged, but encouraged because these are the laws of God) and which helps to purify our walk in this world. "By the Torah is the knowledge of sin", therefore, we should reflect on it to learn the ways of God.

Not all laws are applicable. If you are a free male, you don't observe the laws of women, slaves, priesthood and kings. So you only ever have a subset of laws that apply. You should notice that even though Paul is very much against getting the Gentiles circumcised for salvation, he applies the laws of the Torah way beyond what is required by the laws listed by the council.

To sum it up, Jews continued to have the obligation to observe the Torah completely. They were already under these covenants, so they only renewed their covenant relationship with God. Gentile sinners had no such promises, though they were under the Noahide covenant (as all Gentiles are), they have forgotten God and their covenant. When they convert they enter into the earlier Abrahamic covenant and are obliged to observe the required laws, as well as encouraged to observe the Torah, the "good word of God".

One is saved from his sin when he repents and immerses himself in the faithful life of the Messiah, ie, lives faithfully (walks as he also walked"). Belief alone is worthless unless are coupled with all these. God always and ever cared about conduct, not head knowledge.

So much for now.
 

lawrance

New Member
Mar 30, 2011
738
19
0
[/size][/font][/color]


Yes, I am here to teach Christians and debate with them. To set them free from Hellenism. I am not calling them to my religion, that would be proselytising, but to do their own research and come to their own conclusions. Seek out the resources and do your own studies.

[/color][/size][/font]


Don't forget that "heresy" is relative. It is always the victor that writes history and declares who the heretics are. This happened in the early centuries when the Hellenists subdued all others. But in reality they were the heretics.




Jews believe that they will be a priestly nation in the Kingdom. This is the covenant they are under. They don't proselytise Gentiles because all nations cannot become priests. They are happy with Gentiles as long as they worship the one true God. In acts these Gentiles were called God-fearers.

The Abrahamic covenant ("you shall be the father of many nations") is what Jesus brought to the Gentiles. So no, Gentiles don't need to convert to Judaism to be counted right with God (this applies to the Gentile followers of Jesus) as long as they don't worship a pantheon of gods...


So you are pushing that Jesus Christ did not come to save the Jewish people but only the stupid goy.

So it's ok for Jewish to reject Jesus or just put him a side.

I would say that anyone that rejects the truth of the trinity is just ignorant or spiritually naive as it is plastered all through the bible as testimony of it. as their are verses every where that reveal it.
 

Groundzero

Not Afraid To Stand
Jul 20, 2011
819
35
0
29
Australia
I would say that anyone that rejects the truth of the trinity is just ignorant or spiritually naive as it is plastered all through the bible as testimony of it. as their are verses every where that reveal it.

Is that so? Let's see how the 'truth of Trinity' fares in light of Scripture! Several people have crowed that there loads of evidence for the Trinity. Let's see it! Show me every one of these 'numerous' verses that show all three persons together! If we're having difficulty pulling up lots of those, bring up some that just have two! Btw, this is not a personal challenge. Let's see the verses that support the Trinity.
 

John Zain

Newbie trainee
Sep 16, 2010
750
32
0
San Diego, CA
Several people have crowed that there loads of evidence for the Trinity.
Let's see it! Show me every one of these 'numerous' verses that show all three persons together!
If we're having difficulty pulling up lots of those, bring up some that just have two!
Btw, this is not a personal challenge. Let's see the verses that support the Trinity.
First, it’s not necessary for the 3 Persons of the Triune God to all be in the same verse.
In seeing these passages in their true light, one needs to be aware of the many
other Scripture verses that reveal who these 3 Persons are.
I.E. Every passage cannot go into detailed proofs of who the 3 Persons are,
and everything needs to be understood in the context of the entire Bible.

Isaiah 48:12-16
“Listen to Me, O Jacob, and Israel, My called: I am He, I am the First, I am also the Last.
Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth, and My right hand has stretched out the heavens
… I, even I, have spoken; yes, I have called him, I have brought him,
and his way will prosper.
Come near to Me, hear this: I (Jesus) have not spoken in secret from the beginning;

from the time that it was, I was there, and now the Lord GOD and His Spirit have sent Me.”
Note: Father God promises to come to His people in the form of His Servant Jesus

Matthew 3:16-17

“When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold,
the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove
and alighting upon Him. And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying,
‘This is My beloved Son, in whom I (Father God) am well pleased.’ ”

Matthew 28:19
“Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them
in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit …”

Luke 1:35
“The Holy Spirit will come upon you (Jesus), and the power of the Highest will over-
shadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.”

John 14:26
“But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My (Jesus)
He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.”

John 15:26

“But when the Helper comes, whom I (Jesus) shall send to you from the Father,
the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me.”

Acts 2:38-39
“Then Peter said to them, ‘Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of
Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off,
as many as the Lord our God (the Father) will call.’ ”

Ephesians 4:4-6
“There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling;
one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is above all,
and through all, and in you all.”

... this is not considered to be a complete list, by any means ...

 

lawrance

New Member
Mar 30, 2011
738
19
0
The Trinity is not hard to fathom we are united with Christ and Chris is the only way to the Father. and if you can't comprehend that something is wrong.
 

Groundzero

Not Afraid To Stand
Jul 20, 2011
819
35
0
29
Australia
The Trinity is not hard to fathom we are united with Christ and Chris is the only way to the Father. and if you can't comprehend that something is wrong.

Haha. I am afraid that if I had to believe something else, I would not choose the Trinity. I think I would choose what Guestman believes about Jesus: Jesus is not God, just a man. That is so much easier to defend! I have previously given explanations about the dual nature of Christ. Whether anyone wishes to actually try it is another issue. I can comprehend that something is wrong. EXTREMELY WRONG! According to the Trinity, Jesus is ONLY the Son. In that case, we do have enormous issues, because the Son is inferior to the Father which places Jesus as a lower god, or, if you please, NO GOD AT ALL!

Just so I'm not taken wrong, I don't believe that Jesus is not God. I believe that Jesus is fully God, because that is what Scripture states: In HIM (Jesus Christ) dwelleth ALL the FULLNESS of the GODHEAD (or deity) BODILY!
 

Groundzero

Not Afraid To Stand
Jul 20, 2011
819
35
0
29
Australia
First, it’s not necessary for the 3 Persons of the Triune God to all be in the same verse.
In seeing these passages in their true light, one needs to be aware of the many
other Scripture verses that reveal who these 3 Persons are.
I.E. Every passage cannot go into detailed proofs of who the 3 Persons are,
and everything needs to be understood in the context of the entire Bible.


Oh, I understand, perfectly. You can't pull up any verses to support a triune God that state it directly! Of course you can't! Because there ain't any there! Of course, there are plenty of verses like there: Deu_6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

Isaiah 48:12-16
“Listen to Me, O Jacob, and Israel, My called: I am He, I am the First, I am also the Last.
Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth, and My right hand has stretched out the heavens
… I, even I, have spoken; yes, I have called him, I have brought him,
and his way will prosper.
Come near to Me, hear this: I (Jesus) have not spoken in secret from the beginning;

from the time that it was, I was there, and now the Lord GOD and His Spirit have sent Me.”
Note: Father God promises to come to His people in the form of His Servant Jesus



Oooooh! I never even knew this verse existed! Now I do, let's begin! As I understand from reading previous verses, this is the LORD speaking: Jehovah. Now I don't understand where Jehovah fits into the Trinity, whether he is just God the Father, or whether he is all of God. I do know, however, that Jehovah is the First and the Last. Guess who else said that? JESUS!?


Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:


Ouch. You mean to tell me that Jesus is Jehovah? Hey, I thought the Trinity was an established fact! Apparently Jesus thought otherwise!


Now to reconcile this verse to what the Scripture teaches, that there is ONE God. What we see here is Christ's humanity speaking. The man, Jesus Christ, was a fusion of humanity and deity. At times he spoke as man, at times he spoke as God. As a man, he is saying that he had been sent from God, but as deity, he WAS God.


Your note is a boomerang. The Father DID come to the dying world which HE created, and he did it in the form of a human being, who COULD feel pain, who was hungry and thirsty. Never at any stage was there a God the Son, because the Son was just the humanity of Jesus! If you wish to make Jesus just the son, then you are going to have some serous issues.

Matthew 3:16-17
“When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold,
the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove
and alighting upon Him. And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying,
‘This is My beloved Son, in whom I (Father God) am well pleased.’ ”



I cannot see three here. Unless you wish to strip Jesus of the title of omnipresence, then he was up in heaven and was responsible for the voice!

Matthew 28:19
“Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them
in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit …”



Have you ever noticed how it says THE NAME? This Scripture is saying that the Father's name is Jesus, the Son's name is Jesus, and the Holy Spirit's name is Jesus! If they all have the same name, could it be that it's because they are one!? Could it be that Jesus was verifying once more with his disciples that HE WAS the FATHER, the SON, and the HOLY SPIRIT? The disciples understood perfectly! When Peter preached on the day of Pentecost, he said to baptise in the name of Jesus (acts 2:38). Peter understood that name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit was Jesus! If anything, this verse proves that Jesus IS the Father and the Holy Ghost as well! Unless the Trinity is so absurd as to suggest that they all have the same names as well!!!!

Luke 1:35
“The Holy Spirit will come upon you (Jesus), and the power of the Highest will over-
shadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.”



Pardon me, but what was the name of Mary Jesus? What are brackets doing there then??? I'll tell you what this verse is saying. This verse is saying that the Holy Spirit performed the miraculous act of conception in Mary's womb! In this conception, humanity and deity were FUSED NOT CONFUSED!

John 14:26
“But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My (Jesus)
He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.”



It seems to be that this verse is incomplete! Let me help you. After the brackets, you should have 'name.' How interesting. Let's go back a few verses: Joh 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. In verse 26, Jesus is talking as a man, in verse 18, however, he was talking as God. Jesus declared himself to be the Comforter! Or the Holy Ghost!


John 15:26
“But when the Helper comes, whom I (Jesus) shall send to you from the Father,
the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me.”



This has already been answered in the previous verse. But here's something: Jesus said that HE was THE Truth! Are there two spirits of Truth? NO! There is ONE Spirit! Ephesians 4:4. Once again, Jesus Christ is talking from a human perspective here.


Acts 2:38-39
“Then Peter said to them, ‘Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of
Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off,
as many as the Lord our God (the Father) will call.’ ”



Seems that you forget that countless times there is a title before the name Jesus: Lord. Ouch. According to Eph 4:4, there is ONE Lord. According to 1 timothy 6:15, Jesus is the Lord of lords! Therefore, either the Bible is very wrong, God the father and God the Holy Ghost really aren't Gods since Jesus is Lord over them, or Jesus is the Father and the Holy Ghost as well as the Son!


Ephesians 4:4-6
“There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling;
one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is above all,
and through all, and in you all.”


Oh boy. I have had many verses thrown at me in 'support' of the Trinity, but this is just incredible! Have we considered the repercussions of ONE SPIRIT?! of ONE LORD!? of ONE GOD THE FATHER WHO IS IN ALL?!


If there is ONE Spirit, that means that the Father, the Holy Ghost, and the Spirit of Jesus are ALL the SAME! Or we have some issues in the Bible's authenticity!


If there is ONE LORD, I think you already know the answer, because Jesus is the LORD OF LORDS!


If there is ONE GOD THE FATHER who is IN all, please tell me, who is inside the believer? TWO SPIRITS? NO!!!!!! There is ONE SPIRIT! The Holy Ghost and the Father are exactly the same!


... this is not considered to be a complete list, by any means ...











Oh, of course not!


My turn.


WHO WAS JESUS' FATHER? According to the Scripture, it was the Holy Spirit!

HOW CAN GOD BE IN CHRIST IF CHRIST IS A DEITY (2 Cor. 5:19)? The only way this is possible, is if the Son/humanity is NOT God, but merely humanity. Remember, the key to understanding Jesus is to understand that he had a dual personality: deity and humanity. The son/Christ refers to his humanity.

WHOM SHALL WE WORSHIP? Jesus only mentioned the Father! No issues if we understand that Jesus IS the Father!


Joh 4:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
Joh 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

http://www.truegospelofjesus.org/articles/trinity.html
 

Rev.Boris

New Member
Aug 7, 2011
5
0
0

This is NOT arguing against the Trinity … I believe in the Triune Godhead.

Jesus went around to all of the villages and towns preaching the gospel ... His gospel.
And later, Jesus commanded His disciples to preach His gospel to the ends of the earth.
Jesus’ gospel (good news, glad tidings, etc.), not Paul's gospel, nor anyone else's gospel.
And this obviously has nothing to do with the Nicean Creed from 325 a.d.

Note:
There is some difference between Jesus’ preaching of His gospel to the multitudes
compared to His teaching to His disciples (especially at the end of His ministry).
To the mutlitudes … was the Holy Spirit ever included?
To the disciples … the Holy Spirit was included,
especially in His great farewell discourse ... see a great Trinity passage: John 14:16-26.

Two sources of belief in the Trinity:
1) being born into a family, culture, etc. which has “blind faith” in it.
2) being given a further spiritual revelation (beyond a belief in the gospel).

My bottom line
The Trinity was never a part of the simple gospel that Jesus preached to the multitudes.
A belief in the Trinity often needs to come from a spiritual revelation.

Are you able to show me verses of Jesus' preaching (in the 4 gospels)
where the Trinity is a part of His gospel?

Note:
This has led many (including Muslims) to insist that Paul preached a different gospel.
But, let us realize that Jesus and Paul preached to 2 totally different audiences:
Jesus preached to the multitudes (none of which had the Holy Spirit).
Paul’s letters were to the churches (most of whom had the Holy Spirit).

[font="Arial][b][color="#800080"]Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the[/color][/b][/font]
[font="Arial][b] [/b][/font][/size][size="7"][font="Arial][b][color="#800080"]name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,[/color][/b][/font]
[font="Arial][size="2"]Matthew 28:19[/size][/font][font="Arial][color="#800080"]
[/color][/font]