Were the brothers in Matthew 13:55 Mary's sons?

[Sigma]

Hebrew language lots of times use two words for one meaning.

I was referring to how in post #157 you cited modern Hebrew words, essentially meaning "cousin", as evidence that there were ancient Hebrew words with the specific definition "cousin" in ancient times, to which I explained in post #48 there were not. Again, as @Illuminator also told you, there was no word in ancient Hebrew with the specific definition "cousin". That's why ancient Hebrew words such as "אחים" ('âchiem) and "אָח" ('âch) were used to refer to various types of kin.

Anepsios is Greek means cousin and it was never used to describe Jesus brothers or sisters.

Using the Koine Greek word "ἀνεψιός" (ἀνεψιός anepsios) isn't the only way to refer to someone's cousin. There's also "ἀδελφός" (sing. adelphos; pl. ἀδελφοὶ adelphoi) and "συγγενής" (syngenēs), etc. Did you read somewhere that the New Testament translators could only use "ἀνεψιός" (ἀνεψιός anepsios) when referring to someone's cousin?


Do you believe Jesus's brother James in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 and Gal. 19 were the same person? This is the third time I've had to ask. Is there a problem?

 

[BeyondET]

Those terms “ben dod" בן דוד, meaning “son of uncle", and “bat doda" בת דודה, meaning “daughter of aunt”, are modern Hebrew terms. In ancient Hebrew, there was no word specifically for "cousin", for example.

Hebrew language lots of times use twords for one meaning.

English doesn't have that thus cousin.

I was referring to how in post #157 you cited modern Hebrew terms, essentially meaning "cousin", as evidence that there were words with the specific definition "cousin" in ancient times, to which I explained in a previous post they are not. Again, as @Illuminator also told you, there was no word in ancient Hebrew with the specific definition "cousin". That's why ancient Hebrew words such as "אחים" ('âchiem) and "אָח" ('âch) were used and referred to various types of kin.



Using the Koine Greek word "ἀνεψιός" (ἀνεψιός anepsios) isn't the only way to refer to someone's cousin. There's also "ἀδελφός" (sing. adelphos; pl. ἀδελφοὶ adelphoi) and "συγγενής" (syngenēs), etc. Did you read somewhere that the New Testament translators could only use "ἀνεψιός" (ἀνεψιός anepsios) when referring to someone's cousin?


Do you believe Jesus's brother James in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 and Gal. 19 were the same person? This is the third time I've had to ask. Is there a problem?

The Greek was never used in Greek to describe Jesus bothers and sisters

If they were Jesus cousins the Greek word for cousin would of been used but it's not thus Jesus brothers and sisters were half brothers and sisters with the same mother.

Pronunciation
Edit
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IPA(key): /a.nep.si.ós/ → /a.nep.siˈos/ → /a.nep.siˈos/
Noun
Edit
ᾰ̓νεψῐός • (anepsiós) m (genitive ᾰ̓νεψῐοῦ); second declension

(male) first cousin, cousin

 

[Sigma]

If they were Jesus cousins the Greek word for cousin would of been used but it's not...

Using the Koine Greek word "ἀνεψιός" (ἀνεψιός anepsios) isn't the only way to refer to someone's cousin. There's also "ἀδελφός" (sing. adelphos; pl. ἀδελφοὶ adelphoi) and "συγγενής" (syngenēs), etc. Did you read somewhere that the New Testament translators could only use "ἀνεψιός" (ἀνεψιός anepsios) when referring to someone's cousin?

Hebrew language lots of times use twords for one meaning.

English doesn't have that thus cousin.

The New Testament wasn't written in English. It was written in Koine Greek, and the Koine Greek word used in the verses in question are either "ἀδελφός" (sing. ἀδελφός adelphos), or its plural form "ἀδελφοί" (pl. ἀδελφοὶ adelphoi). The literal English translation of the Koine Greek word "ἀδελφός" (sing. adelphos; pl. ἀδελφοὶ adelphoi) is "brother", but just like the English word "brother", "ἀδελφός" (sing. adelphos; pl. ἀδελφοὶ adelphoi) has multiple definitions, one of them being "a near kinsman, or relative", and a kinsman/relative can be a sibling, cousin, nephew, uncle, etc. You err in applying a definition of the English word "brother" to the Koine Greek word "ἀδελφός" (sing. adelphos; pl. ἀδελφοὶ adelphoi) that it doesn't share, which is "sibling", at least not directly since "sibling" is a type of kinsman/relative.

Therefore, when reading a verse where the word "ἀδελφός" (sing. adelphos; pl. ἀδελφοὶ adelphoi) is used, and you believe its definition "a near kinsman, or relative" applies, you can't just assume any type of kinsman/relative, e.g., sibling, cousin, nephew, uncle, etc., applies. You have to show why said definition and which type of kinsman/relative applies in it.

 

[BeyondET]

There's also "ἀδελφός" (sing. adelphos; pl. ἀδελφοὶ adelphoi) and "συγγενής" (syngenēs), etc. Did you read somewhere that the New Testament translators could only use "ἀνεψιός" (ἀνεψιός anepsios) when referring to someone's cousin?


Do you believe Jesus's brother James in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 and Gal. 19 were the same person? This is the third time I've had to ask. Is there a problem?

They didn't use it to describe Jesus siblings as cousin because they were not, none of them use it and not because they weren't allowed.

Post the three verses not just the location.

Gal 19 what?

 

[Sigma]

They didn't use it to describe Jesus siblings as cousin because they were not, none of them use it and not because they weren't allowed.

Note: Please take your time reading the following. I took extra time trying to verbalize clearly as I could for you what I intended to convey. Thank you.

Even if you believed that Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) were Jesus's cousins, it still doesn't mean the New Testament translators would've used the Koine Greek word "ἀνεψιός" (ἀνεψιός anepsios) because they didn't have to. "ἀνεψιός" (ἀνεψιός anepsios) isn't the only Koine Greek word that can refer to someone's cousin, there's also "ἀδελφός" (sing. adelphos; pl. ἀδελφοὶ adelphoi) and "συγγενής" (syngenēs), etc. And, since you acknowledge that the New Testament translators weren't forbidden from using any other Koine Greeks words to refer to someone's cousin, such as "ἀδελφός" (sing. ἀδελφός adelphos; pl. ἀδελφοὶ adelphoi), their use of that specific word in itself doesn't mean Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) weren't Jesus's cousins.

In Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3, Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) are called Jesus's "brothers", or "ἀδελφοί" (sing. ἀδελφός adelphos; pl. ἀδελφοὶ adelphoi) in the original language used. The English and Koine Greek word for "brother(s)" both have multiple definitions, one definition they don't share is "siblings", nor any other specific type of kinsman/relative, but they do share the broader familial definition "kinsman", and a kinsman/relative can be a sibling, cousin, nephew, or uncle, etc. If we agree Jesus's brothers in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 were His family, then we can't assume any specific type of kinsman/relative applies to them, because, again, the definition shared between the English and Koine Greek word for "brother(s)" isn't any specific type of kinsman/relative, but rather "a near kinsman, or relative." And, what can tell us which specific type of kinsman/relative applies isn't the English and Koine Greek word for "brother(s)" themselves, but rather other information, such as lineage, testimonials, etc.

Therefore, what information do you have, if any, that shows why siblings is the specific type of kinsman/relative that applies to Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3? My information that shows why cousins is the specific type of kinsman/relative that applies to Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 can be found here.

Post the three verses not just the location.

"Is this not the carpenter’s son? Is His mother not called Mary, and His brothers, James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas?" (Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3)

"Then three years later I went up to Jerusalem to become acquainted with Cephas, and stayed with him for fifteen days. But I did not see another one of the apostles except James, the Lord’s brother." (Gal. 1:18-19)

Do you believe the James in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 and the James in Gal. 1:19 were the same person?

 

[BeyondET]

Note: Please take your time reading the following. I took extra time trying to verbalize clearly as I could for you what I intended to convey. Thank you.

Even if you believed that Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) were Jesus's cousins, it still doesn't mean the New Testament translators would've used the Koine Greek word "ἀνεψιός" (ἀνεψιός anepsios) because they didn't have to.

I don't believe Jesus brothers were His cousins.

"ἀνεψιός" (ἀνεψιός anepsios) isn't the only Koine Greek word that can refer to someone's cousin, there's also "ἀδελφός" (sing. adelphos; pl. ἀδελφοὶ adelphoi) and "συγγενής" (syngenēs), etc.

Wouldn't matter if there was 7 words that could refer. It's about what the verses are saying.

And, since you acknowledge that the New Testament translators weren't forbidden from using any other Koine Greeks words to refer to someone's cousin, such as "ἀδελφός" (sing. ἀδελφός adelphos; pl. ἀδελφοὶ adelphoi), their use of that specific word in itself doesn't mean Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) weren't Jesus's cousins.

The use of the word in its self isn't how it is the bible. Its in a sentence and the translators used the correct one for the context, like Mary's cousin Elizabeth.

In Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3, Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) are called Jesus's "brothers", or "ἀδελφοί" (sing. ἀδελφός adelphos; pl. ἀδελφοὶ adelphoi) in the original language used.

Jesus half brother Judas/Jude isn't Judas Thaddeus and there are 4 Judas and 3 James in the new testament. Judas was a common name derived from Judah.

The English and Koine Greek word for "brother(s)" both have multiple definitions, one definition they don't share is "siblings", nor any other specific type of kinsman/relative,

A sibling can be a brother or a sister but never a cousin. And the Koine Greek language there's a word for that.

They didn't run around not knowing what to call their own family members siblings brothers sisters. What you said about Koine Greek speaking people don't have a word for their siblings is ridiculous.

but they do share the broader familial definition "kinsman", and a kinsman/relative can be a sibling, cousin, nephew, or uncle, etc. If we agree Jesus's brothers in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 were His family, then we can't assume any specific type of kinsman/relative applies to them, because, again, the definition shared between the English and Koine Greek word for "brother(s)" isn't any specific type of kinsman/relative,

i sure can because I don't assume they were His siblings in English.

but rather "a near kinsman, or relative." And, what can tell us which specific type of kinsman/relative applies isn't the English and Koine Greek word for "brother(s)" themselves, but rather other information, such as lineage, testimonials, etc.

but rather something that isnt "near kinsman". Either someone is a kinsman or not.

Therefore, what information do you have, if any, that shows why siblings is the specific type of kinsman/relative that applies to Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3? My information that shows why cousins is the specific type of kinsman/relative that applies to Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 can be found here.

because im not trying to prove a false doctrine like perpetual virgin mary. You have convinced yourself she was. So your choice is very narrow basically cousin because if you learned they were His siblings bye bye to the doctrine. You might hold on to the end who knows I hope not.

"Is this not the carpenter’s son? Is His mother not called Mary, and His brothers, James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas?" (Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3)

even though Joseph wasn't Jesus biological father. The context here speaks of a biological family. They certainly saw Jesus from a baby to adult with His family.

The carpenter and his wife and children. Though Mary become a widow and a disciple took her in after the crucifixion.

"Then three years later I went up to Jerusalem to become acquainted with Cephas, and stayed with him for fifteen days. But I did not see another one of the apostles except James, the Lord’s brother." (Gal. 1:18-19)

yes James the half sibling of Jesus, the verse isn't saying the Lord's brother James was a apostle. That's another James the apostle.

The only Apostle he was acquainted with was Cephas except he saw James the half sibling at some point during the fifteen days, thus two people he knew.

One he spoke too an apostle, the other he seen the Lord's brother. Prime reason why it's mentioned as such. To differentiate who James was and who Cephas wasn't.

Do you believe the James in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 and the James in Gal. 1:19 were the same person?

Yup

 

[Illuminator]

BeyondET wants to believe the mother of the Messiah was merely a re-usable incubator, a womb for God and a womb for whoever, a disgusting and unbiblical heresy that gained traction from 18th century modernists.

"...Martin Luther, Ulrich Zwingli, John Calvin (at least early in his career), and other early Protestant figures all recognized that the perpetual virginity of Mary is taught in the Bible. Unfortunately, over the centuries since the Reformation, their theological descendants have lost their way in this regard. Today, few Protestants recognize the truth, let alone the Biblical basis, of Mary’s perpetual virginity.

Again, I’m not trying to prove the case here with an appeal to a wide variety of authorities. I offer this very brief survey of the Church’s history on the question to show the Church often and unequivocally defended the doctrine as true because its truth matters, and that its denial is a relatively recent development in Church history.

Second, Mary’s perpetual virginity matters because its truth has implications that matter to all of us; namely, points beyond her life to the world that is to come, a world in which there will be no more marriage and we will all be as Mary was. “For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven,” Jesus told the Sadducees (Matt. 22:30). Mary’s virginity is a prefigurement of heaven, the reward for those who say to God, with Mary, “Thy will be done.”

Third, Mary’s perpetual virginity is one of many of her attributes that make her a beautiful symbol of the Church, as the virgin bride of Christ and the fruitful mother of Christians. St. Ambrose wrote, “Fittingly is [Mary] espoused, but Virgin because she prefigures the Church which is undefiled yet wed. A Virgin conceived of the Spirit, a Virgin brings us forth without travail” (On Luke 2.6-7).

Fourth is the related point that Mary’s perpetual virginity says a great deal about her relationship with all of us. When Christ was dying on the cross, he said to John “behold your mother” and to Mary “behold your son” (John 19:26-27). The Church has always recognized in this not simply a son providing for his mother’s care after his death, but Christ’s giving of his mother to each and every one of us—she is our mother, too. This would have made no sense if Mary had other children, since they would have been tasked with her care after Jesus’ death. And that should matter to all Christians..."

Why Mary's Perpetual Virginity Matters

Mary’s perpetual virginity is denied by most Protestants today. Was Mary a virgin for her entire life? And why does it matter? Read more here.

www.catholic.com

BeyondET has to be right, must be right, even at the expense of the truth, hence the endless word games.

 

[Sigma]

...Mary's cousin Elizabeth.

You claim that only the Koine Greek word with the definition "cousin", such as "ἀνεψιός" (ἀνεψιός anepsios), wouldve've been used to refer to a cousin. You claim Elizabeth in Lk. 1:36 was Mary of Joseph's cousin, yet Elizabeth wasn't called "ἀνεψιός" (ἀνεψιός anepsios), meaning specifically "a nephew, cousin", but rather "συγγενίς" (syngenis), which although it has the broader familial definition "a kinswoman, female relative", it can be used to refer to various types of female kin, including cousin. However, according to your logic, solely because the word συγγενίς" (syngenis) was used instead of "ἀνεψιός" (ἀνεψιός anepsios), Elizabeth couldn't have been Mary of Joseph's cousin.

Yup

"18 Then three years later I went up to Jerusalem to become acquainted with Cephas, and stayed with him for fifteen days. 19 But I did not see another one of the apostles except James, the Lord’s brother". (Gal. 1:18-19)

Since you claim the James in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 was Jesus's sibling, as well as claim that he and James the brother of the Lord in Gal. 1:19 were the same person, I'll point out that in Gal 1:18 Paul said he saw the apostle Peter in Jerusalem, then in verse 19 indicated that James the brother of the Lord was the only other apostle he saw there by saying, "But I did not see another one of the apostles except...". This means if James was Jesus's sibling, he would've had to have also been one of the apostles, either James of Zebedee or James of Alphaeus, however neither were a son of Joseph and Mary, and thus Jesus couldn't have had a sibling named James.

 

[BeyondET]

You claim Elizabeth in Lk. 1:36 was Mary of Joseph's cousin,

If you want to add Joseph into to the mix just do it. There's no need to excuse me of saying something I didn't.

Both Joseph and Mary shared a common grandfather, Matthan, who connected both of them to both Judean and Parthian royalty as Matthan was a descendant of a Parthian prince by the name of Pacorus.

yet Elizabeth wasn't called "ἀνεψιός" (ἀνεψιός anepsios), meaning specifically "a nephew, cousin", but rather "συγγενίς" (syngenis), which although it has the broader familial definition "a kinswoman, female relative",

all though it has familial definition can’t be that because it wouldn't fit into your narrative.

it can be used to refer to various types of female kin,

there you go again it can be used to refer. I can use a knife to open a can but i prefer a can opener.

including cousin. However, according to your logic, solely because the word συγγενίς" (syngenis) was used instead of "ἀνεψιός" (ἀνεψιός anepsios), Elizabeth couldn't have been Mary of Joseph's cousin.

Yes it can you said it yourself and contradicting your statement.

although it has the broader familial definition "a kinswoman, female relative",

"18 Then three years later I went up to Jerusalem to become acquainted with Cephas, and stayed with him for fifteen days. 19 But I did not see another one of the apostles except James, the Lord’s brother". (Gal. 1:18-19)

Since you claim the James in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 was Jesus's sibling, as well as claim that he and James the brother of the Lord in Gal. 1:19 were the same person, I'll point out that in Gal 1:18 Paul said he saw the apostle Peter in Jerusalem, then in verse 19 indicated that James the brother of the Lord was the only other apostle he saw there by saying, "But I did not see another one of the apostles except...". This means if James was Jesus's sibling, he would've had to have also been one of the apostles,

James the apostle was one of the twelve. Anyone can be an apostle which is why the Lords brother was there, Jesus sent him. Paul is making sure the distinction between Jesus brother and Peter one of the twelve disciples who was not Jesus brother.
and there's a clear distinction because if James was one the twelve apostles. Paul wouldn't have said he saw just no other of the twelve.

either James of Zebedee or James of Alphaeus, however neither were a son of Joseph and Mary, and thus Jesus couldn't have had a sibling named James.

Those are the other James, the third James is Jesus brother.

 

[Sigma]

If you want to add Joseph into to the mix just do it. There's no need to excuse me of saying something I didn't.

I only said "Mary of Joseph" so people knew which Mary you were referring to when you claimed Elizabeth in 1:36 was called Mary's cousin. Anyway, again, you claim that Elizabeth in Lk. 1:36 was called Mary's cousin. Now, there's more than one word in Koine Greek that can be used to refer to a cousin, such as "ἀνεψιός" (ἀνεψιός anepsios), which has a specific familial definition "a nephew, cousin" and "συγγενίς" (syngenis), which has a broader familial definition "a kinswoman, female relative", and can be used to refer to various types of female kin, including cousin. Therefore, if Elizabeth was Mary's cousin, the use of either of those Koine Greek words aptly applies, and it was the word "συγγενίς" (syngenis) that in the end was used in Lk. 1:36.

However, solely because the word "ἀνεψιός" (ἀνεψιός anepsios) wasn't used in Lk. 1:36, Elizabeth couldn't have been Mary's cousin as you claim, because you also claim that only the Koine Greek word with the specific familial definition "cousin", such as "ἀνεψιός" (ἀνεψιός anepsios), would've been used to refer to a cousin, and if its not then they can't be a cousin, and thus you contradict yourself regarding your own claim, according to your own logic.

Paul is making sure the distinction between Jesus's brother and Peter, one of the twelve disciples, who was not Jesus brother.

In Gal. 1:18-19, Paul mentions he had seen the apostle Peter in Jerusalem, and that he didn't see any of the other apostles there, except at least one ("But I did not see another one of the apostles except..."), which indicates he's about to name another of the apostles he did see, and it was "James the Lord’s brother". This means if James was Jesus's sibling, he would've had to have also been one of the apostles, either James of Zebedee or James of Alphaeus, however neither were a son of Joseph and Mary, and thus Jesus couldn't have had a sibling named James.

However, you're right about two things: that the James in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 was Jesus's family member, and that he and the apostle James in Gal. 1:19 were the same person. So, how was apostle James of Zebedee or apostle James of Alphaeus Jesus's family member? My answer to that can be found here, and in short, James in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3, the James in Gal. 1:19, and the apostle James of Alphaeus, etc., were the same person, and that he and his siblings Joseph, Simon, and Judas (the apostle Judas of Alphaeus) were the sons of Joseph's brother, Alphaeus, and thus Jesus's cousins. And, again, they were called Jesus's "ἀδελφοί" (sing. ἀδελφός adelphos; pl. ἀδελφοὶ adelphoi), or "brothers" in English, and because the information I provided in the previously cited link shows they were His family, specifically cousins, that's why its definition "a near kinsman, or relative", which can and has been used to refer to various types of kin, including cousin, applies to them.

 

[BeyondET]

I only said "Mary of Joseph" so people knew which Mary you were referring to when you claimed Elizabeth in 1:36 was Mary's cousin.

No you said Joseph's cousin which both Mary and Elizabeth were.

Now, again, you claim that Elizabeth in Lk. 1:36 was Mary's cousin.

First or fourth the bible doesn't say, other than Elizabeth father was Joseph fathers brother.

You also claim that only the Koine Greek word with the definition "cousin", such as "ἀνεψιός" (ἀνεψιός anepsios), would've been used to refer to a cousin,

it was used in the new testament

yet Elizabeth wasn't called that, but rather "συγγενίς" (syngenis), which has the broader familial definition "a kinswoman, female relative", and can be used to refer to various types of female kin, including cousin.

the genealogy shows that.

However, despite the apt use of the word "συγγενίς" (syngenis) in Lk. 1:36, solely because the word "ἀνεψιός" (ἀνεψιός anepsios) wasn't used, Elizabeth couldn't have been Mary's cousin, and thus you contradict yourself regarding your own claim, according to your own logic.



In Gal. 1:18-19, Paul mentions he had seen the apostle Peter in Jerusalem, and that he didn't see any of the other apostles there, except at least one

no except the Lords brother. Peter was a brother figuratively and James was the brother of Jesus

if James was one of the twelve Paul wouldn't even had pointed out the Lords brother. Paul would of said two of the apostles was there without stating James the Lord's brother. In the naming of the twelve apostles is there any mentioning of James the Lord's Brother of the James mentioned.

("But I did not see another one of the apostles except..."), which indicates he's about to name another of the apostles he did see, and it was "James the Lord’s brother".

no not at all. It's to distinguish the two.

This means if James was Jesus's sibling, he would've had to have also been one of the apostles,

not of the twelve, apostle means to send, Jesus didn't just use twelve disciples. Another Joseph who was wealthy was a disciple of Jesus thus a apostle as well.

either James of Zebedee or James of Alphaeus, however neither were a son of Joseph and Mary,

No they were not

and thus Jesus couldn't have had a sibling named James.

Plenty of people named James in those days and now. Jesus had 4 brothers one named James.

However, you're right about two things: that the James in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 was Jesus's family member,

Yes a half sibling.

and that he and the apostle James in Gal. 1:19 were the same person.

Not one of the chosen twelve but yes

So, how was apostle James of Zebedee or apostle James of Alphaeus Jesus's family member?

They were not

My answer to that can be found here, and in short, James in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3, the James in Gal. 1:19, and the apostle James of Alphaeus, etc., were the same person,

No three different James like how there is 4 different Judas. It's common to find multiple different people with the same name in the bible just like today.

and that he and his siblings Joseph, Simon, and Judas (the apostle Judas of Alphaeus) were the sons of Joseph's brother, Alphaeus, and thus Jesus's cousins.

Your statement in the quotation marks and after, isn't in the bible. That's your opinion.

And, again, they were called Jesus's "ἀδελφοί" (sing. ἀδελφός adelphos; pl. ἀδελφοὶ adelphoi), or "brothers" in English, and because the information I provided in the previously cited link shows they were His family, specifically cousins, that's why its definition "a near kinsman, or relative", which can and has been used to refer to various types of kin, including cousin, applies to them.

I see you've changed up your verbiage, so now "it's can and has been" meaning that's your opinion and your sticking to it, I've figured that out.

 

[BlessedPeace]

I think so. Matthew 13:


The home in Hometown refers to the biological family.


i.e., familial son


i.e., the biological mother


biological half-brothers? Was Joseph named after his father?


biological half-sisters?


More evidence of biological/familial terms.


Mark 6:


More and more evidence of biological/familial terms.

Luke 2:


Presumably, after the firstborn, Mary would have her 2nd born, etc.

There is some archaeological evidence concerning James Ossuary:


I think it is more likely that Jesus had biological half-brothers.

Yes, he did have biological half-sisters and brothers.

The Catholic Church does not speak of nor for our Father.
There are Christians.

And there are Roman Catholic Christians. Those are taught their church produces the only true church. And that's true.

While God calls His Elect. And we are indwelled by him so to live and example God's word, and live as individual temples across his Earth.
We are testaments of and to his New testament.



Let the Romans church create and espouse its doctrine.

Call no man father but your Father in Heaven.

 

[Sigma]

No you said Joseph's cousin which both Mary and Elizabeth were.

Incorrect. You said "...Mary's cousin Elizabeth", which is why I said you claim that Elizabeth in Lk. 1:36 was called Mary's cousin.

Now, there's more than one word in Koine Greek that can be used to refer to a cousin, such as "ἀνεψιός" (ἀνεψιός anepsios), which has a specific familial definition "a nephew, cousin" and "συγγενίς" (syngenis), which has a broader familial definition "a kinswoman, female relative", and can be used to refer to various types of female kin, including cousin. Therefore, if Elizabeth was Mary's cousin, the use of either of those Koine Greek words aptly applies, and it was the word "συγγενίς" (syngenis) that in the end was used in Lk. 1:36.

However, solely because the word "ἀνεψιός" (ἀνεψιός anepsios) wasn't used in Lk. 1:36, Elizabeth couldn't have been Mary's cousin as you claim, because you also claim that only the Koine Greek word with the specific familial definition "cousin", such as "ἀνεψιός" (ἀνεψιός anepsios), would've been used to refer to a cousin, and if its not then they can't be a cousin, and thus you contradict yourself regarding your own claim, according to your own logic.

If James was one of the twelve, Paul wouldn't even had pointed out the Lords brother

In Gal. 1:18-19, it's indicated by Paul that James was both an apostle and family member of Jesus. This is because after Paul mentions he had seen the apostle Peter in Jerusalem, who was one of the twelve apostles, he adds that he didn't see any of the other apostles there, except James ("But I did not see another one of the apostles except James..."). The context of Gal. 1:18 and the words in bold red from v. 19 are what indicate to us that James is one of the twelve apostles, and it's the title "the Lord's brother" that follows his first name that indicates to us he was also Jesus's family member. This means if this James was Jesus's sibling, he would've had to have also been one of the apostles, either James of Zebedee or James of Alphaeus, however, neither were a son of Joseph and Mary, and thus James, nor Joseph, Simon, and Judas (Judas/Thaddeus) could've been Jesus's siblings.

However, you're right about two things: that the James in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 was Jesus's family member, and that he and the apostle James in Gal. 1:19 were the same person. So, how was apostle James of Zebedee or apostle James of Alphaeus Jesus's family member? My answer to that can be found here, and in short, there I've shown why James in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3, the James in Gal. 1:19, and the apostle James of Alphaeus, etc., were the same person, and that he and his siblings Joseph, Simon, and Judas (who I've also shown was the apostle Judas of Alphaeus) were the sons of Joseph's brother, Alphaeus, and thus Jesus's cousins. And, again, they were called Jesus's "ἀδελφοί" (sing. ἀδελφός adelphos; pl. ἀδελφοὶ adelphoi), or "brothers" in English, and because the information I provided in the previously cited link shows they were His family, specifically cousins, that's why its definition "a near kinsman, or relative", which can and has been used to refer to various types of kin, including cousin, applies to them.

 

[BeyondET]

Incorrect. You said "...Mary's cousin Elizabeth", which is why I said you claim that Elizabeth in Lk. 1:36 was called Mary's cousin.

No you didn't you injected Joseph into the mix.

Now, there's more than one word in Koine Greek that can be used to refer to a cousin,

yup and you dont agree Jesus had half siblings.

such as "ἀνεψιός" (ἀνεψιός anepsios), which has a specific familial definition "a nephew, cousin" and "συγγενίς" (syngenis), which has a broader familial definition "a kinswoman, female relative", and can be used to refer to various types of female kin, including cousin.

Could of would of should of.

Therefore, if Elizabeth was Mary's cousin, the use of either of those Koine Greek words aptly applies, and it was the word "συγγενίς" (syngenis) that in the end was used in Lk. 1:36.

Really don't matter if Elizabeth was Mary's cousin aunt or grandmother. It's rather Jesus had brothers and cousins and aunt's and uncle's, grandparents.

However, solely because the word "ἀνεψιός" (ἀνεψιός anepsios) wasn't used in Lk. 1:36, Elizabeth couldn't have been Mary's cousin as you claim, because you also claim that only the Koine Greek word with the specific familial definition "cousin", such as "ἀνεψιός" (ἀνεψιός anepsios), would've been used to refer to a cousin, and if its not then they can't be a cousin, and thus you contradict yourself regarding your own claim, according to your own logic.

Thats another topic.

In Gal. 1:19, Paul referred to James as both an apostle and family member. This is because after Paul mentions he had seen the apostle Peter in Jerusalem, who was one of the twelve apostles, he adds that he didn't see any of the other apostles there, except James

Yes I apologize. the Lord's brother was a apostle but not one of the twelve.

("But I did not see another one of the apostles except James..."). The context of Gal. 1:18 and the words in bold red from v. 19 are what indicate to us that James is one of the twelve apostles,

No by stating the twelve apostles were still around and Paul spoke to Peter but didn't see another one of the apostles, how many apostles were there?.

Do you know who was the second apostle?

and it's the title "the Lord's brother" that follows Jame's first name that indicates to us he was also Jesus's family member.

no it indicates the Lord's brother was there also.

However, you're right about two things: that the James in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 was Jesus's family member, and that he and the apostle James in Gal. 1:19 were the same person.

yea, you said that before.

So, how was apostle James of Zebedee or apostle James of Alphaeus Jesus's family member? My answer to that can be found here, and in short, there I've shown why James in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3, the James in Gal. 1:19, and the apostle James of Alphaeus, etc., were the same person, and that he and his siblings Joseph, Simon, and Judas (who I've also shown was the apostle Judas of Alphaeus) were the sons of Joseph's brother, Alphaeus, and thus Jesus's cousins. And, again, they were called Jesus's "ἀδελφοί" (sing. ἀδελφός adelphos; pl. ἀδελφοὶ adelphoi), or "brothers" in English, and because the information I provided in the previously cited link shows they were His family, specifically cousins, that's why its definition "a near kinsman, or relative", which can and has been used to refer to various types of kin, including cousin, applies to them.

Are you copying and pasting some of your words?

 

[BlessedPeace]

No you said Joseph's cousin which both Mary and Elizabeth were.

First or fourth the bible doesn't say, other than Elizabeth father was Joseph fathers brother.

it was used in the new testament

the genealogy shows that.

no except the Lords brother. Peter was a brother figuratively and James was the brother of Jesus

if James was one of the twelve Paul wouldn't even had pointed out the Lords brother. Paul would of said two of the apostles was there without stating James the Lord's brother. In the naming of the twelve apostles is there any mentioning of James the Lord's Brother of the James mentioned.

no not at all. It's to distinguish the two.

not of the twelve, apostle means to send, Jesus didn't just use twelve disciples. Another Joseph who was wealthy was a disciple of Jesus thus a apostle as well.

No they were not

Plenty of people named James in those days and now. Jesus had 4 brothers one named James.

Yes a half sibling.

Not one of the chosen twelve but yes

They were not

No three different James like how there is 4 different Judas. It's common to find multiple different people with the same name in the bible just like today.

Your statement in the quotation marks and after, isn't in the bible. That's your opinion.

I see you've changed up your verbiage, so now "it's can and has been" meaning that's your opinion and your sticking to it, I've figured that out.

Did you know the only bible practicing Catholics read is that which is stamped with the seal of approval by the Vatican ?


If Elizabeth wasn't Mary's cousin then it stands to reason Lazarus was not related to Jesus.

But he was. Because Elizabeth was Mary's cousin.

Strong's Greek: 4773. συγγενής (suggenes) -- akin, a relative

Luke 1 BSB GRK Parallel

Has anyone else noticed after some of us in other threads referred to the beating of the dead horse revival of the same old topics that those type topics are being posted anew?

Horse haters!

 

[Sigma]

No you didn't you injected Joseph into the mix.

Again, you said "...Mary's cousin Elizabeth", which is why I said you claim that Elizabeth in Lk. 1:36 was called Mary of Joseph's cousin. I referred to Mary as "Mary of Joseph" so people knew which Mary you were referring to when you claimed Elizabeth in 1:36 was Mary's cousin, as there are multiple women in the Bible named "Mary".

Really don't matter if Elizabeth was Mary's cousin...

Your claiming that a Koine Greek word with the specific familial definition of "cousin" was applied to Elizabeth mattered when you thought it proved that Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) couldn't have been Jesus's cousins. That is up until I said the following:

"There's more than one word in Koine Greek that can be used to refer to a cousin, such as "ἀνεψιός" (ἀνεψιός anepsios), which has a specific familial definition "a nephew, cousin" and "συγγενίς" (syngenis), which has a broader familial definition "a kinswoman, female relative", and can be used to refer to various types of female kin, including cousin. Therefore, if Elizabeth was Mary's cousin, the use of either of those Koine Greek words aptly applies, and it was the word "συγγενίς" (syngenis) that in the end was used in Lk. 1:36.

However, solely because the word "ἀνεψιός" (ἀνεψιός anepsios) wasn't used in Lk. 1:36, Elizabeth couldn't have been Mary's cousin as you claim, because you also claim that only the Koine Greek word with the specific familial definition "cousin", such as "ἀνεψιός" (ἀνεψιός anepsios), would've been used to refer to a cousin, and if its not then they can't be a cousin, and thus you contradict yourself regarding your own claim, according to your own logic."

How convenient that after I said all that your claim suddenly doesn't matter anymore.

Yes, I apologize. The Lord's brother was an apostle, but not one of the twelve.

I don't like that you say that as if you agreed from the start James in Gal. 1:19 was an apostle when you haven't. You went from denying he was an apostle multiple times, to now accepting that he was, though still rejecting he was one of the twelve apostles. However, I praise you for finally recognizing and acknowledging that James in Gal. 1:19 was indeed an apostle of Jesus.

The reason why he was one of the twelve apostles is because after Paul mentions he had seen the apostle Peter in Jerusalem, who was one of the twelve apostles, he adds that he didn't see any of the other apostles there, except James ("But I did not see another one of the apostles except James..."). The context of Gal. 1:18 and the words in bold red from v. 19 are what indicate to us that James is one of the twelve apostles. Where do you see context in vv. 18-19 that indicate James was an apostle, but not one of the twelve?

 

[BeyondET]

Again, you said "...Mary's cousin Elizabeth", which is why I said you claim that Elizabeth in Lk. 1:36 was called Mary of Joseph's cousin.

I never claimed that, Elizabeth was called Mary of Joseph's cousin. Thats hog wash.

I referred to Mary as "Mary of Joseph" so people knew which Mary you were referring to when you claimed Elizabeth in 1:36 was Mary's cousin, as there are multiple women in the Bible named "Mary".

I'm confident people know there's multiple women named Mary in the bible. Sounds like your not giving people much credit.

Your claiming that a Koine Greek word with the specific familial definition of "cousin" was applied to Elizabeth mattered when you thought it proved that Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) couldn't have been Jesus's cousins. That is up until I said the following:

That makes zero sense.

"There's more than one word in Koine Greek that can be used to refer to a cousin, such as "ἀνεψιός" (ἀνεψιός anepsios), which has a specific familial definition "a nephew, cousin" and "συγγενίς" (syngenis), which has a broader familial definition "a kinswoman, female relative", and can be used to refer to various types of female kin, including cousin. Therefore, if Elizabeth was Mary's cousin, the use of either of those Koine Greek words aptly applies, and it was the word "συγγενίς" (syngenis) that in the end was used in Lk. 1:36.

more copy and past zzzzzz...

However, solely because the word "ἀνεψιός" (ἀνεψιός anepsios) wasn't used in Lk. 1:36, Elizabeth couldn't have been Mary's cousin as you claim, because you also claim that only the Koine Greek word with the specific familial definition "cousin", such as "ἀνεψιός" (ἀνεψιός anepsios), would've been used to refer to a cousin, and if its not then they can't be a cousin, and thus you contradict yourself regarding your own claim, according to your own logic."

How convenient that after I said all that your claim suddenly doesn't matter anymore.

How you make no sense.

I don't like that you say that as if you agreed from the start James in Gal. 1:19 was an apostle when you haven't.

I don't like you can't put 5 words in a sentence that makes sense.

You went from denying he was an apostle multiple times, to now accepting that he was,

Nay thats you playing Mr. twister

though still rejecting he was one of the twelve apostles.

However, I praise you for finally recognizing and acknowledging that James in Gal. 1:19 was indeed an apostle of Jesus.

Your welcome he was a disciple also and half sibling of Jesus.

Even Mary Magdalene was a apostle. Jesus sent her to the twelve apostles after His resurrection.

The reason why he was one of the twelve apostles is because after Paul mentions he had seen the apostle Peter in Jerusalem, who was one of the twelve apostles, he adds that he didn't see any of the other apostles there,

Yes the other 11

except James ("But I did not see another one of the apostles except James...").

not of the twelve but nonetheless a apostle the Lord’s brother.

The context of Gal. 1:18 and the words in bold red from v. 19 are what indicate to us that James is one of the twelve apostles.

Who's us, is someone else with you?

Where do you see context in vv. 18-19 that indicate James was an apostle, but not one of the twelve?

Because Paul didn't say he seen two. Now he did say he saw the Lord's brother, imo a half sibling, a apostle, a disciple.

 

[Sigma]

I never claimed that, Elizabeth was called Mary of Joseph's cousin. Thats hog wash.

Again, you said "...Mary's cousin Elizabeth", which is why I said you claim that Elizabeth in Lk. 1:36 was called the cousin of Mary of Joseph. The reason I referred to Mary as "Mary of Joseph" was so people knew which Mary you were referring to when you claimed Elizabeth in 1:36 was called the cousin of Mary, as there are multiple women in the Bible named "Mary".

Really don't matter if Elizabeth was Mary's cousin...

Your claiming that a Koine Greek word with the specific familial definition "cousin" was applied to Elizabeth mattered when you thought it proved that Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) couldn't have been Jesus's cousins. That is up until I said the following:

"There's more than one word in Koine Greek that can be used to refer to a cousin, such as "ἀνεψιός" (ἀνεψιός anepsios), which has a specific familial definition "a nephew, cousin" and "συγγενίς" (syngenis), which has a broader familial definition "a kinswoman, female relative", and can be used to refer to various types of female kin, including cousin. Therefore, if Elizabeth was Mary's cousin, the use of either of those Koine Greek words aptly applies, and it was the word "συγγενίς" (syngenis) that in the end was used in Lk. 1:36.

However, solely because the word "ἀνεψιός" (ἀνεψιός anepsios) wasn't used in Lk. 1:36, Elizabeth couldn't have been Mary's cousin as you claim, because you also claim that only the Koine Greek word with the specific familial definition "cousin", such as "ἀνεψιός" (ἀνεψιός anepsios), would've been used to refer to a cousin, and if its not then they can't be a cousin, and thus you contradict yourself regarding your own claim, according to your own logic."

How convenient that after I said all that above that your claim suddenly doesn't matter anymore.

Because Paul didn't say he seen two.

???

What you're trying to say didn't come out clear. So, try again, and show where in Gal. 1:18-19 is it indicated that James was an apostle, but not one of the twelve apostles?

 

[BeyondET]

Again, you said "...Mary's cousin Elizabeth", which is why I said you claim that Elizabeth in Lk. 1:36 was called the cousin of Mary of Joseph. The reason I referred to Mary as "Mary of Joseph" was so people knew which Mary you were referring to when you claimed Elizabeth in 1:36 was called the cousin of Mary, as there are multiple women in the Bible named "Mary".



Your claiming that a Koine Greek word with the specific familial definition "cousin" was applied to Elizabeth mattered when you thought it proved that Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) couldn't have been Jesus's cousins. That is up until I said the following:

"There's more than one word in Koine Greek that can be used to refer to a cousin, such as "ἀνεψιός" (ἀνεψιός anepsios), which has a specific familial definition "a nephew, cousin" and "συγγενίς" (syngenis), which has a broader familial definition "a kinswoman, female relative", and can be used to refer to various types of female kin, including cousin. Therefore, if Elizabeth was Mary's cousin, the use of either of those Koine Greek words aptly applies, and it was the word "συγγενίς" (syngenis) that in the end was used in Lk. 1:36.

However, solely because the word "ἀνεψιός" (ἀνεψιός anepsios) wasn't used in Lk. 1:36, Elizabeth couldn't have been Mary's cousin as you claim, because you also claim that only the Koine Greek word with the specific familial definition "cousin", such as "ἀνεψιός" (ἀνεψιός anepsios), would've been used to refer to a cousin, and if its not then they can't be a cousin, and thus you contradict yourself regarding your own claim, according to your own logic."

How convenient that after I said all that above that your claim suddenly doesn't matter anymore.



???

What you're trying to say didn't come out clear. So, try again, and show where in Gal. 1:18-19 is it indicated that James was an apostle, but not one of the twelve apostles?

Let's talk about Jesus sisters who was their father and mother where is it mentioned.

Let's say I agree about the brothers. Now show me in the bible His sisters were His cousins.

You have one word to work with to show Mary was a perpetual virgin.

 

[Sigma]

I never claimed that, Elizabeth was called Mary of Joseph's cousin. Thats hog wash.

Again, you said "...Mary's cousin Elizabeth", which is why I said you claim that Elizabeth in Lk. 1:36 was called the cousin of Mary of Joseph. The reason I referred to Mary as "Mary of Joseph" was so people knew which Mary you were referring to when you claimed Elizabeth in 1:36 was called the cousin of Mary, as there are multiple women in the Bible named "Mary".

Really don't matter if Elizabeth was Mary's cousin...

Your claiming that a Koine Greek word with the specific familial definition "cousin" was applied to Elizabeth mattered when you thought it proved that Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) couldn't have been Jesus's cousins. That is up until I said the following:

"There's more than one word in Koine Greek that can be used to refer to a cousin, such as "ἀνεψιός" (ἀνεψιός anepsios), which has a specific familial definition "a nephew, cousin" and "συγγενίς" (syngenis), which has a broader familial definition "a kinswoman, female relative", and can be used to refer to various types of female kin, including cousin. Therefore, if Elizabeth was Mary's cousin, the use of either of those Koine Greek words aptly applies, and it was the word "συγγενίς" (syngenis) that in the end was used in Lk. 1:36.

However, solely because the word "ἀνεψιός" (ἀνεψιός anepsios) wasn't used in Lk. 1:36, Elizabeth couldn't have been Mary's cousin as you claim, because you also claim that only the Koine Greek word with the specific familial definition "cousin", such as "ἀνεψιός" (ἀνεψιός anepsios), would've been used to refer to a cousin, and if its not then they can't be a cousin, and thus you contradict yourself regarding your own claim, according to your own logic."

How convenient that after I said all that above that your claim suddenly doesn't matter anymore.

Because Paul didn't say he seen two.

What you're trying to say didn't come out clear. So, try again, and show where in Gal. 1:18-19 is it indicated that James was an apostle, but not one of the twelve apostles?

Let's talk about Jesus sisters who was their father and mother where is it mentioned. Now show me in the bible His sisters were His cousins.

I never said the unnamed sisters of Jesus in Matt: 13:56/Mk. 6:4 were Jesus's cousins. You're the one who believes Joseph and Mary were the parents of Jesus's unnamed sisters in Matt. 13:56-Mk. 6:4, despite them never being called the daughters of Joseph and Mary, nor the siblings of Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus).