Were the brothers in Matthew 13:55 Mary's sons?

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TonyChanYT

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I think so. Matthew 13:

53 When Jesus had finished these parables, He withdrew from that place. 54Coming to His hometown,
The home in Hometown refers to the biological family.

He taught the people in their synagogue, and they were astonished. “Where did this man get such wisdom and miraculous powers?” they asked. 55“Isn’t this the carpenter’s son?
i.e., familial son

Isn’t His mother’s name Mary,
i.e., the biological mother

and aren’t His brothers James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas?
biological half-brothers? Was Joseph named after his father?

56 Aren’t all His sisters with us as well?
biological half-sisters?

Where then did this man get all these things?” 57 And they took offense at Him.
But Jesus said to them, “Only in his hometown and in his own household is a prophet without honor.”
More evidence of biological/familial terms.

58 And He did not do many miracles there, because of their unbelief.
Mark 6:

4 Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor except in his own town, among his relatives and in his own home.”
More and more evidence of biological/familial terms.

Luke 2:

7a And she gave birth to her firstborn, a Son.
Presumably, after the firstborn, Mary would have her 2nd born, etc.

There is some archaeological evidence concerning James Ossuary:

The James Ossuary is a 1st-century limestone box that was used for containing the bones of the dead. An Aramaic inscription meaning "Jacob (James), son of Joseph, brother of Jesus" is cut into one side of the box. Professor Camil Fuchs of Tel Aviv University stated that, other than the James Ossuary, there has so far only been one found, amongst thousands of ossuaries, that contains a reference to a brother, concluding that "there is little doubt that this [naming a brother or son] was done only when there was a very meaningful reason to refer to a family member of the deceased, usually due to his importance and fame." He produced a statistical analysis of the occurrence of these three names in ancient Jerusalem and projected that there would only have been 1.71 people named James, with a father named Joseph and a brother named Jesus, expected to be living in Jerusalem around the time at which the ossuary was produced.
I think it is more likely that Jesus had biological half-brothers.
 

Aunty Jane

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The Bible agrees....:Agreed:
The Catholic church is the only one that would disagree since their reverence for Mary will not allow for the “mother of God” to have had any other children. The Bible say that Joseph did not have marital relations with Mary (his wife) until after she had given birth to Jesus. (Matt 1:24-25)
 

Sigma

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Were the brothers in Matthew 13:55 Mary's sons? I think so.


Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) are never called Mary of Joseph's sons, but rather in two verses (Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3) those specific four are called Jesus's "adelphoi", which in English translates to "brothers", and it doesn't prove they were His siblings, because the word "adelphoi" has multiple definitions, e.g., "fellow-countryman", "disciple/follower", "one of the same faith", and "kinsman", etc.

We agree the definition that applies to the word "adelphoi" in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 is "kinsman", but a kinsman can be a sibling, cousin, nephew, or uncle, etc., and the word itself doesn't indicate which type of kinship applies. For this reason, merely citing verses with the word "adelphoi" and saying "See, they were Jesus's siblings!" isn't proof that that type of kinship applies.
 
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Sigma

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The Bible say that Joseph did not have marital relations with Mary (his wife) until after she had given birth to Jesus. (Matt 1:24-25)

You claim that Scripture plainly states in Matt. 1:25 that Joseph and Mary didn't have intercourse and more children until after Mary gave birth to Jesus, but it doesn't; rather, it states they didn't have intercourse "until she brought forth her firstborn son." The word "until" has multiple definitions, not only the one you're inferring by your insertion of the word "after".

For the sake of argument, say the word "until" was used to mean Joseph and Mary had intercourse after Jesus's birth, that in itself wouldn't prove Mary bore more children because, for example, having vaginal intercourse doesn't lead to procreation for some men and women. Sometimes the woman is barren or the man is sterile, etc. Your interpretation that the gospel writer, after writing about the long-anticipated messianic prophecy coming to fruition, basically threw in the tidbit, "After the birth of the Savior, Joseph had intercourse with Mary and 6+ more kids" at the end is quite random. It also isn't in line with the context of Matt. 1:20-25:

"But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared to him in his sleep, saying: Joseph, son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus. For he shall save his people from their sins. Now all this was done that it might be fulfilled that which the Lord spoke by the prophet, saying: Behold, a virgin shall be with child and bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. And Joseph, rising up from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord had commanded him, and took to him his wife. And he knew her not until she brought forth her firstborn son, and he called his name Jesus."

The context of Matt. 1:25 is Joseph's accepting as his spouse the virgin who conceived the Savior of mankind by the Holy Spirit. The gospel writer concludes the passage by stating that Joseph didn't have intercourse with Mary until Jesus's birth, to dispel any belief that he was the father. In other words, since the gospel writer's intent at the end was to show what Joseph didn't do until a certain point, so as to dispel any belief that Jesus was conceived by him, and not begotten by the Holy Spirit, they stated he remained chaste until Jesus's birth. Why would implying Joseph had or didn't have intercourse with Mary after Jesus's birth be relevant, when it's only about Jesus's paternal origin? It's not relevant, which is another reason why the definition of "until" that you're applying doesn't fit here, but rather "up to the time that," because it informs us what Joseph didn't do until a certain point, not what occurred after that point, to dispel any belief that he was the father. The importance of Matt. 1:20-25 is that it primarily pertains to the messianic prophecy, not the sexual relationship, or lack thereof, between Joseph and Mary.
 

TonyChanYT

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Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) are never called Mary of Joseph's sons, but rather in two verses (Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3) those specific four are called Jesus's "adelphoi", which in English translates to "brothers", and it doesn't prove they were His siblings, because the word "adelphoi" has multiple definitions, e.g., "fellow-countryman", "disciple/follower", "one of the same faith", and "kinsman", etc.

We agree the definition that applies to the word "adelphoi" in Matt. 13:55/Mk. 6:3 is "kinsman", but a kinsman can be a sibling, cousin, nephew, or uncle, etc., and the word itself doesn't indicate which type of kinship applies. For this reason, merely citing verses with the word "adelphoi" and saying "See, they were Jesus's siblings!" isn't proof that that type of kinship applies.
If you think Mary remained a virgin till she died, will you bet on it?
 

Cassandra

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I wanna know about this bet thing. I'd bet that she wasn't a virgin, but how are you going to prove she was/ or wasn't good enough for one side to cave in? I'm intrigued.

BTW, welcome @TonyChanYT . I think I've seen you on another board, and I like the way you think...so far, anyway.
 

Sigma

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If you think Mary remained a virgin till she died, will you bet on it?

I know Mary is a perpetual Virgin. If you want to discuss Her perpetual virginity, start a thread about it, because the proof She's not the birth mother of Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Jude/Thaddeus) doesn't prove She's a perpetual Virgin, though there's evidence She is.
 
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Wrangler

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I know Mary is a perpetual Virgin.
I find the idea absurd on its face that a married would be supposed to remain a virgin OR that there is something virtuous or healthy about a sexless marriage. I also find the obsession with the sex life of a 1st century Jewish girl to be bizarre. It has no doctrinal significance and even talking about such things as the sex life of our lord's mother is not honoring him, to say the least!

Why does Mary have to be an exception to the definition that parents have sex?
 

Sigma

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Why does Mary have to be an exception to the definition that parents have sex?

If I didn't have all the evidence I do to show the Blessed Virgin Mary is a perpetual Virgin, using my God-given reason, for starters, I'd consider since God the Father wanted a perfect ark created to contain His written Word, why would He not create the perfect Ark to contain His Word made flesh. I'd consider since sin can't exist where God, the Holy and Pure One, resides, why would God reside in the womb of and be raised by a sinful woman.
 

L.A.M.B.

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Wow talk about eviscerating word definitions........:Oh no:
 

Aunty Jane

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I'm a "her" not a "him".
Sorry…it isn’t obvious from your avatar….I’ll remember next time. Not that your gender makes any difference to your flawed theology…..but it’s your choice to believe whatever you like…..
 

Sigma

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Sorry…it isn’t obvious from your avatar….

No need to apologize, but thank you. Since my gender isn't obvious from my avatar, you didn't have to assume I'm a "he". If you had visited my profile you would've seen my gender is female. Anyway, it's not a big deal, just wanted to clarify.
 

L.A.M.B.

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You are correct @Aunty Jane .
It is the individuals choice to believe whatever they like, error or not.

The only fact of importance that must be correct is in salvation!
John 3
18] He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. [19] And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
 
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Aunty Jane

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If I didn't have all the evidence I do to show the Blessed Virgin Mary is a perpetual Virgin, using my God-given reason, for starters, I'd consider since God the Father wanted a perfect ark created to contain His written Word, why would He not create the perfect Ark to contain His Word made flesh. I'd consider since sin can't exist where God, the Holy and Pure One, resides, why would God reside in the womb of and be raised by a sinful woman.
You do understand that no amount of “reason” can alter the truth…..the Bible is clear and you can only produce extra biblical sources to “prove” something the Bible never says.

Where is it written that Mary was an ark? And did you never read in the book of Job where the angels took their station before God and satan entered right in among them….bold as brass….so evil can exist for a time where God resides if he has a good enough reason to tolerate it.

Now go to Leviticus 12:6-8…here are the rules for childbirth……a woman was “unclean“ for several weeks after birth.
“When the days of her purification for a son or a daughter are completed, she will bring a young ram in its first year for a burnt offering and a young pigeon or a turtledove for a sin offering to the entrance of the tent of meeting, to the priest. 7 He will present it before Jehovah and make atonement for her, and she will be clean from her flow of blood. This is the law about the woman who gives birth to either a male or a female. 8 But if she cannot afford a sheep, she must then take two turtledoves or two young pigeons, one for a burnt offering and one for a sin offering, and the priest will make atonement for her, and she will be clean.’”

Did Mary need to present a “sin offering” after the birth of her son?
Luke 2:22-24…”when the time came for purifying them according to the Law of Moses, they brought him up to Jerusalem to present him to Jehovah, 23 just as it is written in Jehovah’s Law: “Every firstborn male must be called holy to Jehovah.” 24 And they offered a sacrifice according to what is said in the Law of Jehovah: “a pair of turtledoves or two young pigeons.”

Please don’t keep repeating the same thing over and over like you have on other threads, because if people disagree the first time, they will continue to disagree all the times you assume they haven’t heard you. You will not convince anyone of anything connected to Mary unless its a fellow Catholic…..you will be preaching to the choir.
Mary was the mother of Jesus but she died like everyone else descended from Adam. There are no exceptions. Mary is not singled out for any special mention in the Bible, in fact she is hardly mentioned at all.
 
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