What are Your Feelings on Tithes

[atpollard]

See 2 Timothy 3:16.

[Exo 21:7-11 NIV] 7 "If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as male servants do. 8 If she does not please the master who has selected her for himself, he must let her be redeemed. He has no right to sell her to foreigners, because he has broken faith with her. 9 If he selects her for his son, he must grant her the rights of a daughter. 10 If he marries another woman, he must not deprive the first one of her food, clothing and marital rights. 11 If he does not provide her with these three things, she is to go free, without any payment of money.

Some discernment might be needed.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I can hardly believe that you are contending for this. We are not to muzzle the ox that treadeth out the grain, and, the labourer is worthy of his reward, should speak volumes.

‘We are not to muzzle the ox that treads out the grain, and, the laborer is worthy of His reward,’
A few thoughts here first) (John 6:26-27) with labour

Second) the laborer is worthy Of his reward ...what reward? Surely not the ‘they have their reward’ maybe instead
Hebrews 10:35-36 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. [36] For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

Third) in the passage of the laborer being worthy of the reward. The ox treading out grain ...same passage but reading on 1 Corinthians 9:12 If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.

And 1 Corinthians 9:15-18 But I have used none of these things: neither have I written these things, that it should be so done unto me: for it were better for me to die, than that any man should make my glorying void. [16] For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel! [17] For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will,(not my will, but Your Will) a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me. [18] What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.

...lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.

 

[Enoch111]

I would like to emphasise one thing that Rock Wiley said in particular and it is this.....Pastor is not mentioned in the New Testament.

He simply cannot understand that the elders were pastors, and they are clearly mentioned. Just a lame excuse. The spiritual gift is that of pastor, but the shepherds were the elders. I already refuted his nonsense.

 

[justbyfaith]

[Exo 21:7-11 NIV] 7 "If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as male servants do. 8 If she does not please the master who has selected her for himself, he must let her be redeemed. He has no right to sell her to foreigners, because he has broken faith with her. 9 If he selects her for his son, he must grant her the rights of a daughter. 10 If he marries another woman, he must not deprive the first one of her food, clothing and marital rights. 11 If he does not provide her with these three things, she is to go free, without any payment of money.

Some discernment might be needed.

Of course we ought to rely on the Holy Spirit for interpretation.

 

[justbyfaith]

Second) the laborer is worthy Of his reward ...what reward?

The double honour being spoken of in 1 Timothy 5:17-18...traditionally interpreted as monetary compensation for work that is done towards the ministry.

...lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.

While a minister's receiving monetary compensation might hinder the gospel of Christ, in that it makes the minister appear to be in it for the money, it is also true that receiving monetary compensation frees up the minister to spend more time in prayer and ministry of the word (see Acts of the Apostles 6:1-4) in that his time does not get consumed by a second job. Being able to devote full time to prayer and the ministry of the word is a good thing...it may have its cons (mentioned above); but I believe that there are more pros than cons in this.

And the passage clearly has in it a verse that says, "Those who preach the gospel should earn their living from the gospel."

But I suspect that if you are a mormon, you are not going to give up concerning this argument because of a specific story within the book of mormon.

To me, it is a peripheral issue that is secondary to preaching Christ and Him crucified...so if you want to make it a hill to die on, I am not out to kill you on it...so believe what you want to believe about this.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

And the passage clearly has in it a verse that says, "Those who preach the gospel should earn their living from the gospel."

Not sure it says they should earn their living from the gospel but instead ‘they live by the gospel’ ...big difference (imo)

But I suspect that if you are a mormon, you are not going to give up concerning this argument because of a specific story within the book of mormon.

I’m not mormon. Never read a specific story within a book.

 

[justbyfaith]

Not sure it says they should earn their living from the gospel but instead ‘they live by the gospel’ ...big difference (imo)

The context of the entire passage being that you shall not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the grain...I think it is safe to say that it is speaking of their living (their sustenance for food, clothing, and shelter).

I’m not mormon. Never read a specific story within a book.

Good to hear.

 

[Giuliano]

‘We are not to muzzle the ox that treads out the grain, and, the laborer is worthy of His reward,’
A few thoughts here first) (John 6:26-27) with labour

Second) the laborer is worthy Of his reward ...what reward? Surely not the ‘they have their reward’ maybe instead
Hebrews 10:35-36 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. [36] For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

Third) in the passage of the laborer being worthy of the reward. The ox treading out grain ...same passage but reading on 1 Corinthians 9:12 If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.

And 1 Corinthians 9:15-18 But I have used none of these things: neither have I written these things, that it should be so done unto me: for it were better for me to die, than that any man should make my glorying void. [16] For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel! [17] For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will,(not my will, but Your Will) a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me. [18] What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.

...lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.

I think of this:

Matthew 10:41 He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward.

People are different. Some may be cut out to be missionaries but unable to pay their way themselves. Other people not cut out to be missionaries may be able to pay their way. They both receive the same reward -- I see it as the different members of the Body working together.

 

[marksman]

He simply cannot understand that the elders were pastors, and they are clearly mentioned. Just a lame excuse. The spiritual gift is that of pastor, but the shepherds were the elders. I already refuted his nonsense.

Your pejorative language is unhelpful in having a full and frank discussion which is what we should be doing.

I know what he is getting at because I have developed an open mind that enables me to sift through everything that is said. Perhaps I should explain for your benefit and anyone else who has not grasped the scriptures pertaining to this subject.

Today the leader of most churches is "the" pastor. I think I can say that without fear of contradiction. In the NTC, "the" pastor was NOT the leader.
In the NTC the leadership was always plural as in "Elders." Paul told Timothy to go and appoint Elders in all the churches. He did not tell him to appoint pastors. Point one.

The Elders had four main functions. One, to oversee the church. Two, to teach. Three, Shepherd the flock and four, discipline. One and four would have been done in a collective manner in their oversight of the church. Point two.

It says in 1Timothy 5:17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine. This tells us that some Elders teach doctrine and some do not. The Elders that rule well and this is not spelt out in detail, are worthy of double honour. We are told by a lot of non-theologians that means they were paid a salary. Point three.

Not so for two reasons. One in the discussion about money in the NTC generally there is no indication at all that the Elders were to be paid. And two the Greek word for honour here is the same Greek word when it says to give honour to Jesus. If it means to pay, then we have to pay Jesus for what he is doing. Point four.

An Elder may have a shepherding function but it does not indicate that only the Elders have a shepherding ministry. In a new church start-up that I was asked to lead, we needed a pastor as I do not have that gift. I did not say to someone I want you to be the pastor of the church. We got on with the business of being church and I watched to see how the cookie crumbled. One man was a standout and it was as clear as day that he would take care of the shepherding ministry of the church as he was always doing things for people. I did not ask him to do things. He just did. The anointing was on him for that ministry. Point five.

The same with teaching. Some Elders teach some do not so it is clear that teaching is not exclusive to Elders. You can have the gift of teaching without being an elder (Ephesians 4:11) Point six.

Plus I have checked every verse in the New Testament that talks about or alludes to leadership and not one of them mentions the pastor.

If you can find in scripture especially in the original Greek which is what I use a lot of the time that what I have said is not the case, do let me know.

 

[marksman]

See 2 Timothy 3:16.

I want to know who YOU think it is written to.

 

[marksman]

I can hardly believe that you are contending for this. We are not to muzzle the ox that treadeth out the grain, and, the labourer is worthy of his reward, should speak volumes.

This kind of statement ("let the pastor take an outside job") can only be made by someone who is biblically illiterate. For in 1 Corinthians 9, specifically, approximately eighteen verses are devoted to this subject; and the conclusion is that those who preach the gospel should earn their living from the gospel.

You should also notice what it says in Acts of the Apostles 6:1-4.

This passage has nothing at all to do with pastors and paying them.

The office of pastor is indeed mentioned in the NT....in Ephesians 4:11.

In Ephesians 4:11 it is not an office. It is a ministry and has nothing at all to do with leadership.

Words can be synonyms of each other, whether the language is Greek or English. An example in English, the words "dog" and "hound" Now "hound" can mean something distinctly different as a verb; but as a noun it is a synonym of "dog".

So the word for "saints" and "church" while they can mean something distinctly different, they are also synonyms of each other. Therefore they mean the same thing. And therefore, when you say that the saints are not the church, that is a weak argument and you are grasping at straws. Because the church is composed of the saints; and therefore the terms are practically synonymous.

When two different words are used in Greek, they mean two different things. Where and how did you study Greek?



You can still be grasping at straws even though you are autistic; because that is what you did.

Where did you get your training with autistic people?

 

[marksman]

where is that marksman? ty

In the verses quoted to claim that giving was to the church, not to the saints.

 

[justbyfaith]

Where did you get your training with autistic people?

I'm afraid I don't have any training with autistic people...so I don't know how to break through the barrier that appears to be coming up because of your disability.

As such, I think it is wise for me to pray for you that the Lord will break through to you and not attempt to do it anymore myself.

Because I feel that there may be a barrier to your understanding what I am attempting to say to you...so I think it is only wise that I leave you to the Lord and your relationship with Him.

The last thing I want to do is argue with someone who is so laser-focused that he is unable to see the big picture!

 

[marksman]

I'm afraid I don't have any training with autistic people...so I don't know how to break through the barrier that appears to be coming up because of your disability.

As such, I think it is wise for me to pray for you that the Lord will break through to you and not attempt to do it anymore myself.

Because I feel that there may be a barrier to your understanding what I am attempting to say to you...so I think it is only wise that I leave you to the Lord and your relationship with Him.

The last thing I want to do is argue with someone who is so laser-focused so much that he is unable to see the big picture!

If that is the case, it is a bit disingenuous that you are telling us what autistic people can and cannot do and should and should not do. Until you understand autism you have no idea what is involved so speaking off the cuff is not acceptable.

And I am not impressed with your barb that we are unable to see the big picture because we are laser focussed. So here is your first lesson about autistic people.

We have an obsession about truth. So much so, we will not in any circumstances say what we think, until and unless we have left no stone unturned to find out what that is. What that means is that we have canvassed the big picture until we have all the facts and the various views on a subject. We then have enough confidence in our ability (we have high I.Q.s) to sift and dig until we have what we consider to be the truth.

If we do not have the knowledge we consider we need to speak on the subject we keep our mouths shut.

 

[justbyfaith]

If that is the case, it is a bit disingenuous that you are telling us what autistic people can and cannot do and should and should not do. Until you understand autism you have no idea what is involved so speaking off the cuff is not acceptable.

And I am not impressed with your barb that we are unable to see the big picture because we are laser focussed. So here is your first lesson about autistic people.

We have an obsession about truth. So much so, we will not in any circumstances say what we think, until and unless we have left no stone unturned to find out what that is. What that means is that we have canvassed the big picture until we have all the facts and the various views on a subject. We then have enough confidence in our ability (we have high I.Q.s) to sift and dig until we have what we consider to be the truth.

If we do not have the knowledge we consider we need to speak on the subject we keep our mouths shut.

I'm leaving you alone. I don't know how to bridge the gap between me and you. May the Lord abundantly bless you, brother.

 

[justbyfaith]

I may in fact be somewhat autistic myself (though never diagnosed as such). It doesn't mean I know how to bridge the language gap between myself and other autistic people.

 

[Rocky Wiley]

I can hardly believe that you are contending for this. We are not to muzzle the ox that treadeth out the grain, and, the labourer is worthy of his reward, should speak volumes.

This kind of statement ("let the pastor take an outside job") can only be made by someone who is biblically illiterate. For in 1 Corinthians 9, specifically, approximately eighteen verses are devoted to this subject; and the conclusion is that those who preach the gospel should earn their living from the gospel.

1Co 9:14 Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.
1Co 9:15 But I have used none of these things: neither have I written these things, that it should be so done unto me: for it were better for me to die, than that any man should make my glorying void.
1Co 9:16 For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!
1Co 9:17 For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.
1Co 9:18 What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.
1Co 9:19 For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.

A servant does not demand the amount of pay he gets by taking gospel out of context.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

The context of the entire passage being that you shall not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the grain...I think it is safe to say that it is speaking of their living (their sustenance for food, clothing, and shelter).

Pastors are the discussion but I’ve struggled with it also (so I’m not attacking pastors). I’m only sharing what it means to me. the severity of it. Writers are the same and what it means to publish. Mark 13:10-11 And the gospel must first be published among all nations. [11] But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Spirit.

Remember the first time I noticed the word ‘publish’ in His word. I could really distort it. But then it becomes a question and fear of the making the gospel ‘void’; to hinder, without profit. Without profit, empty, in vain...to whom? Only giving a perspective. As far as ‘worthy of his reward’ ...the question becomes does one want to be rewarded of men or ‘recompense of the reward’ of God? Also in those passages is a great deal of the word ‘Hope’.

Two other verses to bring in for consideration. My grandson goes to a Christian school and one day I was helping him with his homework. The subject was: if a man doesn’t work, don’t let him eat. Was even thinking of this yesterday pertaining to the ‘work, that you might have a little left over to give to someone who needs it.’ All becoming money and slaving hard to get as much as you can so you might have a little money to give to someone else. But then if a man doesn’t work...don’t let him eat. Starve him? when my grandson read God say if a man doesn’t work, don’t let him eat...he paused and said ‘oh wow’. I didn’t say anything but could see an opinion of who God is and what God favours most highly was forming in his mind. Would elders not know what bread is being spoken of? 2 Thessalonians 3:8-12 Neither did we eat any man's bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you: [9] Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us. [10] For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat. [11] For we hear that there are some which walk among you disorderly, working not at all, but are busybodies. [12] Now them that are such we command and exhort by our Lord Jesus Christ, that with quietness they work, and eat their own bread.

Ephesians 4:28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.

 

[Candidus]

I remember a missionary that came to the church to fundraise. He told us what was happening, and what God was doing. He then asked, "Are you willing to drop everything, you friends, your extended family, your home, your career path and your job, and be a missionary for God?" lf you cannot do that yourself, why not support those of us that are willing to go? This is your participation in this ministry."

I see most of the call to support the ministry in the New Testament being directed towards the traveling preacher, who does not know where they will sleep that night, or when they will see their next meal. The design of support was much more than providing a 9-5 job and a Sermon on Sunday. I do not see it as seeking to hire a CEO for a business. Not so much to give to support a paycheck, but more of an extension of ourselves to enable someone that is called and willing to make it their life as a Missionary for God. I believe that it it is not so much that I am paying a light bill, or giving a Pastor a paycheck, but through my giving, I am enabling someone to do what I am not ready to do myself.

In this, I am more of a fan of the working Pastor model, where the burden is not laid so heavily to "employ" a Missionary, but that the Missionary also invest into that the work they say is their life and passion. I just do not see the "Hireling" model to be all that Scriptural.

 

[bbyrd009]

I can hardly believe that you are contending for this.

maybe that is just what Yah wants? Diversity?