What argument do you personally use to justify the existence of God?

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frost2021

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Hey all, I haven't been around the forums in many years. I've been a Christian for as long as I can remember. I've had my doubts, but have ultimately been steadfast.

I'm currently in a college philosophy class and we have been discussing the possibilities of an all powerful deity. I'm having a hard time discrediting the arguments against a God and am wanting some confirmation from those who may be more intellectually inclined than I am.

Appreciate it!
 

Born_Again

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I would recommend reading anything by CS Lewis. Also, look into Ravi Zacharias and Frank Turek. They are apologetic ninjas.
 

Born_Again

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If you're going to argue with a professor of philosophy, you're going to need more than just a personal justification because that wont stand with them. You need to dive into apologetics. I know this from helping a friend who was in the same situation you are. Check out the guys I mentioned.

My personal justification is based on my own experiences and my testimony. Its what He has shown and done for that causes me to believe.
 

kyrie-eleison

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I believe in God because I am invested in the Christian ideal of being transformed into a perfect lover. I enjoy interpreting my life circumstances and interior life within a Christian narrative. As far as convincing others or justifying the existence of God, I am really not interested in convincing anyone of what is obvious to me - it would be similar to justifying the existence of my gf and trying to prove her existence.....seems like a distraction from experiencing love.

I do not believe that God can be measured by material standards - like the human spirit, God is too simple and too unpredictable to be contained within the material world.
 
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lforrest

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I would avoid humanist arguments such as, I believe in God because I want him to exist. Our desire is irrelevant to the existence of God, or any truth for that matter.

Humanist ideals are the backbone of relativism.
 

justaname

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The Cosmological Argument
The cosmological argument is the argument from the existence of the world or universe to the existence of a being that brought it into and keeps it in existence. It comes in two forms, one modal (having to do with possibility and the other temporal (having to do with time).

The modal cosmological argument, the argument from contingency, suggests that because the universe might not have existed (i.e. is contingent), we need some explanation of why it does. Whereever there are two possibilities, it suggests, something must determine which of those possibilities is realised. As the universe is contingent, then, there must be some reason for its existence; it must have a cause. In fact, the only kind of being whose existence requires no explanation is a necessary being, a being that could not have failed to exist. The ultimate cause of everything must therefore be a necessary being, such as God.

The temporal kalam cosmological argument, begins by arguing that the past is finite. The idea that the universe has an infinite past stretching back in time into infinity is, the argument notes, both philosophically and scientifically problematic; all indications are that there is a point in time at which the universe began to exist. This beginning must either have been caused or uncaused. It cannot have been uncaused, though, for the idea of an uncaused event is absurd; nothing comes from nothing. The universe must therefore have been brought into existence by something outside it. The kalam argument thus confirms one element of Christianity, the doctrine of Creation.


The Teleological Argument
The teleological argument is the argument from the order in the world to the existence of a being that created it with a specific purpose in mind. The universe is a highly complex system. The scale of the universe alone is astounding, and the natural laws that govern it perplex scientists still after generations of study. It is also, however, a highly ordered system; it serves a purpose. The world provides exactly the right conditions for the development and sustenance of life, and life is a valuable thing. That this is so is remarkable; there are numerous ways in which the universe might have been different, and the vast majority of possible universes would not have supported life. To say that the universe is so ordered by chance is therefore unsatisfactory as an explanation of the appearance of design around us. It is far more plausible, and far more probable, that the universe is the way it is because it was created by God with life in mind.

http://www.philosophyofreligion.info/theistic-proofs/

These are my personal favorite classical arguments. There are more arguments like the ontological argument and the moral argument, yet I find these above to be more tangible.


From a different site:

Believe it or not, a 5 year old child could be an atheistic scientist's worst nightmare by merely asking him “where did everything come from if God didn't make it?” What that child is actually asking in scientific terms is “how do we have a violation of the 1st Law of Thermodynamics by the creation of energy and matter in the closed system of the universe if there is no Creator capable of doing that?”

Plain and simple, matter/energy can not come into existence. It is scientifically impossible, yet here we see everything around us, so how can that be? There are really only 3 possibilities. Option A: Everything came into existence by itself anyway, without the help of God, (even though science has proven that impossible). Option B: Everything in the universe has always existed for all of eternity, (which, by the way is also scientifically impossible as explained in the Top Ten Proofs for God's Existence CD due to something called the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics), or Option C: There must be a God, a Being greater than science, who created the Laws of science and has the ability to disobey them. Not only is a belief in God the only logical conclusion to draw, it's the only one scientifically possible because remember, if there is no God, the first two options are scientifically impossible according to the actual Laws of Physics.


http://toptenproofs.com/article.php?id=7

This one is rather simple and more of a modern idea. To understand more fully take the link to the site and read the whole article. It is a short read.
 

Stranger

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Frosty said:
Hey all, I haven't been around the forums in many years. I've been a Christian for as long as I can remember. I've had my doubts, but have ultimately been steadfast.

I'm currently in a college philosophy class and we have been discussing the possibilities of an all powerful deity. I'm having a hard time discrediting the arguments against a God and am wanting some confirmation from those who may be more intellectually inclined than I am.

Appreciate it!
What arguments are you having a hard time discrediting?

Stranger
 

junobet

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lforrest said:
I would avoid humanist arguments such as, I believe in God because I want him to exist. Our desire is irrelevant to the existence of God, or any truth for that matter.

Humanist ideals are the backbone of relativism.
I found it more useful to point out that humanism is deeply rooted in Christianity: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_humanism
Concerning relativism I like to point towards the Moral argument. Most atheists I know are decent people and it gets under their skin:
When they say morals are relative in that they are solely the product of the societies that formed them, agree with them that a good deal of our morals are the product of education and socialisation. But then take them up on their deepest moral instincts (for example: “do not torture children”) and ask them if they really believe torturing children is ok as long as you happen to live in a society that condones it. Most will feel in their guts that they don’t really believe that. What follows is the question where those instincts/those highest moral obligations come from. What is it that tells you with such certainty you ought or not ought to do something.
For the more philosophically inclined there’s an excellent Gresham College lecture on Kant’s views on God, given by Keith Ward:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nA_uO90wuVI
 

kerwin

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Frosty said:
Hey all, I haven't been around the forums in many years. I've been a Christian for as long as I can remember. I've had my doubts, but have ultimately been steadfast.

I'm currently in a college philosophy class and we have been discussing the possibilities of an all powerful deity. I'm having a hard time discrediting the arguments against a God and am wanting some confirmation from those who may be more intellectually inclined than I am.

Appreciate it!
I think therefore I am is the only fact and everything else is based on faith. It is just a matter of where each of us chooses to put our faith. I choose to put my faith in God because he is the only hope for both myself and my world. Nothing else offers that hope.
 

kerwin

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Stranger said:
What arguments are you having a hard time discrediting?

Stranger
Good question since some philosophical arguments are tricky but ignorant. For example the argument "can God create a stone he can not pick up" is tricky in appearance but can be paraphrased as is God more powerful than himself.
 

Stranger

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kerwin said:
Good question since some philosophical arguments are tricky but ignorant. For example the argument "can God create a stone he can not pick up" is tricky in appearance but can be paraphrased as is God more powerful than himself.
Yes, I always answer this by saying God can make a rock as big as He wants and He can pick up any rock He makes. He cannot quit being God.

Stranger
 

frost2021

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Stranger said:
What arguments are you having a hard time discrediting?

Stranger

The most recent argument that I'm having difficulty with is the problem of evil. In the Christian bible and in fact in many different religions, God is described as being all powerful, all knowing, and all good.

If God exists according to this concept of him how can evil exist?
If God is both all good and all knowing, why would he have let evil into the world? If he knew evil would come about, yet let it happen regardless, he must therefore not be all good. This would be a contradiction to our concept of God, and such a God could not exist.

An all knowing God would not have allowed Eve to eat the forbidden fruit if he knew in advance she would and thus release evil into the world. That's like a professor administering a test to his students even though he knows that they will all fail. The point of a test is to test someone's knowledge. If one already knows the results to a test why administer it? Is that just and good?

If God is all powerful, and all good, why hasn't he stopped the plague of evil? If someone goes into a gun store and demands a gun saying that he intends to kill people with it and the owner sells it to him regardless, is he not liable if the man actually kills someone? Is turning a blind eye to evil not in itself evil? Why would a just and all powerful God allow such evil to exist if he is supposedly all good?

These are the basic arguments that I'm finding hard to argue against.
 

frost2021

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junobet said:
I found it more useful to point out that humanism is deeply rooted in Christianity: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_humanism
Concerning relativism I like to point towards the Moral argument. Most atheists I know are decent people and it gets under their skin:
When they say morals are relative in that they are solely the product of the societies that formed them, agree with them that a good deal of our morals are the product of education and socialisation. But then take them up on their deepest moral instincts (for example: “do not torture children”) and ask them if they really believe torturing children is ok as long as you happen to live in a society that condones it. Most will feel in their guts that they don’t really believe that. What follows is the question where those instincts/those highest moral obligations come from. What is it that tells you with such certainty you ought or not ought to do something.
For the more philosophically inclined there’s an excellent Gresham College lecture on Kant’s views on God, given by Keith Ward:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nA_uO90wuVI
The people who agree that child torture is wrong and immoral, are not from a society that participates in such activity. This again is only confirming that their world view is a product of their societal upbringing.

There are many countries in Africa and South America where there are basically gruesome forms of torture imposed on youth veiled as a right of passage. I've watched on the National Geographic channel young men in Africa get pierced, whipped, and beaten in the name of coming into manhood. To their society this is not child torture, this is a ritualistic ceremony celebrating the coming into adult hood. This view is based on their upbringing. People in the west would consider such acts as purely barbaric due to their upbringing. Does this make the acts necessarily wrong? That depends on your world view which was created over time by the people and places you interacted with.
 

Stranger

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Frosty said:
The most recent argument that I'm having difficulty with is the problem of evil. In the Christian bible and in fact in many different religions, God is described as being all powerful, all knowing, and all good.

If God exists according to this concept of him how can evil exist?
If God is both all good and all knowing, why would he have let evil into the world? If he knew evil would come about, yet let it happen regardless, he must therefore not be all good. This would be a contradiction to our concept of God, and such a God could not exist.

An all knowing God would not have allowed Eve to eat the forbidden fruit if he knew in advance she would and thus release evil into the world. That's like a professor administering a test to his students even though he knows that they will all fail. The point of a test is to test someone's knowledge. If one already knows the results to a test why administer it? Is that just and good?

If God is all powerful, and all good, why hasn't he stopped the plague of evil? If someone goes into a gun store and demands a gun saying that he intends to kill people with it and the owner sells it to him regardless, is he not liable if the man actually kills someone? Is turning a blind eye to evil not in itself evil? Why would a just and all powerful God allow such evil to exist if he is supposedly all good?

These are the basic arguments that I'm finding hard to argue against.
If God is all knowing and is good then how can evil exist? Because God in His omnipotence and goodness decided it needed to be.

Why did God let evil into the world? Because it was part of His plan in bringing many into the family of God.

You say then, God must not be good for doing this. But you're looking at it through human 'goodness', not the goodness of God. Thus you have your contradiction and belief that such a God could not exist. But, such a God does exist.

An all knowing God did allow Eve to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. And, an all knowing God placed the serpent in the garden also. Why? To release evil in the world as that was His plan. Tests and trials are not for God to learn something. He already knows. The tests and trials reveal things in us and they are for our learning. It is just and good because God did it. Remember, God does not do good, the good is what God does. If He does it, it is good.

Well, God is working on stopping evil. It will play out as He said. All life belongs to God. He gives it and takes it anyway He pleases. He hasn't turned a blind eye to evil. He sees it all. And He deals with it and will deal with it. And He is just and good in what He is doing.

Stranger
 
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frost2021

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Stranger said:
If God is all knowing and is good then how can evil exist? Because God in His omnipotence and goodness decided it needed to be.

Why did God let evil into the world? Because it was part of His plan in bringing many into the family of God.

For such a powerful deity, why would he need his creations to wade through evil in order to be brought closer to him? If you think about it, it's sort of like a twisted game. -Make creations
- Make them suffer
- Allow some to enter the family and force some to burn in hell.
God knows those whom will pass or fail his test before they have even been born l, so there is no such thing as free will if God has already predetermined who will pass his tests. This does not seem like a just or perfect God.

You say then, God must not be good for doing this. But you're looking at it through human 'goodness', not the goodness of God. Thus you have your contradiction and belief that such a God could not exist. But, such a God does exist.

In the Bible, God defines what is both good and evil very clearly. His expectations of us are exact, so to say he gave us instructions for good that are false, would seem extremely unjust and misleading for an all just God.

An all knowing God did allow Eve to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. And, an all knowing God placed the serpent in the garden also. Why? To release evil in the world as that was His plan. Tests and trials are not for God to learn something. He already knows. The tests and trials reveal things in us and they are for our learning. It is just and good because God did it. Remember, God does not do good, the good is what God does. If He does it, it is good.

So just because God does something that makes it good? If God came down and told you to kill all of your loved ones and you could go to heaven, would that be good? And would you do it to show your loyalty? That can't be good in any sense, that isn't just.

When you say these trials are for our own good and God already knows the outcome, it sounds a little bit like building and playing with a doll house. Why would God need to do such a thing if he is all perfect? Such behavior seems insecure and narcissistic.

Well, God is working on stopping evil. It will play out as He said. All life belongs to God. He gives it and takes it anyway He pleases. He hasn't turned a blind eye to evil. He sees it all. And He deals with it and will deal with it. And He is just and good in what He is doing.

If God is all powerful He shouldn't need to work on anything, he should just be able to do it. God could stop evil at any moment, but he doesn't. It's as if God enjoys seeing humans suffer because he imposed it on us knowing what it would do, knowing our reactions, and for no good reason other than for his "glory" If God hasn't even given us the ability to rationalize and appropriately understand what is truly good, that God is definitely evil by human standards.
Stranger
 

rockytopva

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My personal justificaiton is because his Spirit came into my heart and illuminated, and warmed the inner man.
 
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kerwin

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lforrest said:
I would avoid humanist arguments such as, I believe in God because I want him to exist. Our desire is irrelevant to the existence of God, or any truth for that matter.

Humanist ideals are the backbone of relativism.
That is not a humanist argument.

It is the only one Philosophy allows unless you take other things on faith.
 

Stranger

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Frosty

It doesn't matter to me what it sounds like to you. What God does is good. No matter what He does. Your judgement of good and just don't apply. Who cares about 'human standards'. Not me. There is no problem with evil when you simply believe the Bible.

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frost2021

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Stranger said:
Frosty

It doesn't matter to me what it sounds like to you. What God does is good. No matter what He does. Your judgement of good and just don't apply. Who cares about 'human standards'. Not me. There is no problem with evil when you simply believe the Bible.

Let me start by saying I'm not an atheist, I'm a Christian with questions. I'll admit my faith is completely blind at this point which is why I'm trying to find some good arguments for the existence of God.

You have not answered my points and have seemingly brushed them off because you don't have a good argument. This seems to be the case with a lot of Christians, they just bury their head in the bible because it is easier than critical thinking.

Again, the bible gives us our definition of good and evil. There are many instances in the bible where God does things that are clearly evil. How can this be explained? And I would argue that almost everyone cares about human standards of good and evil, such as our criminal justice system. I do not accept that everything God does is good just because he is God. Evil is evil, whether by human or supreme being standards.
Stranger