What Changed?

[Nancy]

May I present to this discussion that 'no', they are not interchangeable. It's a bold idea for sure.

I'm waiting to see if anyone else knows where I'm going with this and if they have any input.

If not, I will post more details when I have some free time.

BTW @Nancy , I absolutely loved your previous avatar, you looked absolutely gorgeous (you know what I mean)!

Hahaha, thanks DNB... Just figured I should update my photo as I am older now I don't think many are in much of a humorous mood on here lately, well understood.
So, as not to be insensitive to anyone, I decided to exchange it for a pic of one of last years hibiscus bush's

 

[DNB]

Hahaha, thanks DNB... Just figured I should update my photo as I am older now I don't think many are in much of a humorous mood on here lately, well understood.
So, as not to be insensitive to anyone, I decided to exchange it for a pic of one of last years hibiscus bush's

Oh, I didn't see it as humurous, but as an extremely pertinent and serious message, i.e. your audacity was wonderful!
Well, if you don't mind, I'm going to regard it as an attempt to get people to be careful and concerned, especially of others.
Thanks!

 

[quietthinker]

While reading the accounts of the thief on the cross in the Gospels, it seems that the thief came upon his repentance in the short time on the cross, but what changed his mind, between the time he was reviling Jesus and when he "repented"? In two accounts:

“Even the robbers who were crucified with Him reviled Him” (Matthew 27:44)
“Even those who were crucified with Him reviled Him” (Mark 15:32)

And then in Luke we have: Luke 23:39 "One of the criminals who hung there heaped abuse on Him. “Are You not the Christ?” he said. “Save Yourself and us!”

What was it that changed the mind of the thief who was to see Jesus in Paradise that day? He goes from mocking Jesus to calling Him a King, really. It just hit me strangely, and has me wondering...

On one level I am shocked, on another, I am not surprised. I have read through all the replies and nobody has picked up on the obvious. It is a testimony to how unfamiliar the account of the Crucifixion is amongst those who make much of it.

Read the accounts again Nancy. There were two thieves crucified with Jesus. One on his right and one on his left. One reviled Jesus saying 'if you're the Son of God get yourself and us down from here' The other thief rebuked him then addressing Jesus said, 'remember me when you come into your Kingdom' .....two thieves two different responses.

You could say they were types of the two primary classes of people on earth....both are guilty.....yet one thief observed the demeanour with which Jesus carried himself during that whole sordid ordeal. There was no resistance in spite of his intense suffering, even praying for those who were condemning him. In this, though a criminal, he recognised innocence. Even here the Spirit was active in mens hearts. Jesus recognised the call for help and true to his promise 'he who comes to me will I in no wise cast out' responded 'truly I say unto you today, you will be with me in paradise.

Oh the far reaching long suffering of him who made himself of no account to save the least of the children of Adam.

 

[charity]

While reading the accounts of the thief on the cross in the Gospels, it seems that the thief came upon his repentance in the short time on the cross, but what changed his mind, between the time he was reviling Jesus and when he "repented"? In two accounts:

“Even the robbers who were crucified with Him reviled Him” (Matthew 27:44)
“Even those who were crucified with Him reviled Him” (Mark 15:32)

And then in Luke we have: Luke 23:39 "One of the criminals who hung there heaped abuse on Him. “Are You not the Christ?” he said. “Save Yourself and us!”

What was it that changed the mind of the thief who was to see Jesus in Paradise that day? He goes from mocking Jesus to calling Him a King, really. It just hit me strangely, and has me wondering...

Matthew 27:38-44;
Mark 15:27-32;
Luke 23:32-43.
John 19:18

Hello @Nancy,

Interesting question, and good for it requires scrutiny of all the accounts, and though I need to look carefully at the Scriptures concerned, even now I can see what a fruitful study this will be. So, thank you Nancy for bringing this to our notice.

I hope to return.
With love in Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[charity]

On this thread we have Gluliano, Marks, and Nancy.....no dummies among them!
So put it together and figure out what was happening there.
There are scriptures to give you a few clues.
Where did Christ say He was going for three days?
Where did all people go that were not saved.....?
Where do you think all the Jews where that died?
How hell plays into this is a different topic. Maybe a different thread.
Hell cannot be described as paradise.
Nor did Christ go to heaven from the cross.

'He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches;
To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life,
which is in the midst of the paradise of God.'
(Rev 2:7)

Hello @Grailhunter,

The Lord Jesus Christ told His disciples that He would be crucified and would rise on the third day (Mark 8:31). With His reference to Jonah, in Matthew 12:39-40 He says that He will be in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights. Acts 2:31 also tells us that His soul (the whole person) was not left in Hell (Hades = the grave).

All men, whether saved or unsaved go to the grave (to Hades = the place of the dead)
No! Hell (Hades=the grave) is not paradise: neither did Christ go to heaven from the cross as you have said. The 'paradise' that is being referred to is that to which the thief refers, 'Lord, remember me when Thou comest into Thy kingdom'. That will happen when Christ returns in His Kingdom and enters upon His reign, for there in the New Jerusalem is the tree of life which was also in the garden of Eden (Revelation 2:7). This is 'the paradise of God' of our Lord's prophetic reply to the thief. Which has a future fulfilment. The words, 'I say unto thee today', being a Hebraism used to give emphasis, and not to indicate that on that day both the Lord and the thief would be in paradise.

Thank you for your fruitful questions.
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Marymog]

While reading the accounts of the thief on the cross in the Gospels, it seems that the thief came upon his repentance in the short time on the cross, but what changed his mind, between the time he was reviling Jesus and when he "repented"? In two accounts:

“Even the robbers who were crucified with Him reviled Him” (Matthew 27:44)
“Even those who were crucified with Him reviled Him” (Mark 15:32)

And then in Luke we have: Luke 23:39 "One of the criminals who hung there heaped abuse on Him. “Are You not the Christ?” he said. “Save Yourself and us!”

What was it that changed the mind of the thief who was to see Jesus in Paradise that day? He goes from mocking Jesus to calling Him a King, really. It just hit me strangely, and has me wondering...

Hi Nancy,

You pose a very good question. One that I never considered. Thank you!

Doing some studying on the matter at hand it led me to another question: Matthew and Mark say that the two thieves mocked Jesus but Luke says that one of the thieves speak kindly to Jesus. Is this a discrepancy or contradiction? Perhaps it has to do with Luke not being a witness to the crucifixion and only interviewing witnesses?

None the less I believe the "good thief" eventually realized that Jesus did nothing CRIMINALLY wrong by claiming to be the Son of God. The good thief even said "we are getting what we deserve for our deeds, but this man has done nothing wrong"!

You know the saying: There Are No Atheists in Foxholes!! Perhaps, just perhaps, as the good thief got closer to death he realized if Jesus is the Son of God he shouldn't be mocking him?

Bible study Mary

 

[Grailhunter]

'He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches;
To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life,
which is in the midst of the paradise of God.'
(Rev 2:7)

Hello @Grailhunter,

The Lord Jesus Christ told His disciples that He would be crucified and would rise on the third day (Mark 8:31). With His reference to Jonah, in Matthew 12:39-40 He says that He will be in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights. Acts 2:31 also tells us that His soul (the whole person) was not left in Hell (Hades = the grave).

All men, whether saved or unsaved go to the grave (to Hades = the place of the dead)
No! Hell (Hades=the grave) is not paradise: neither did Christ go to heaven from the cross as you have said. The 'paradise' that is being referred to is that to which the thief refers, 'Lord, remember me when Thou comest into Thy kingdom'. That will happen when Christ returns in His Kingdom and enters upon His reign, for there in the New Jerusalem is the tree of life which was also in the garden of Eden (Revelation 2:7). This is 'the paradise of God' of our Lord's prophetic reply to the thief. Which has a future fulfilment. The words, 'I say unto thee today', being a Hebraism used to give emphasis, and not to indicate that on that day both the Lord and the thief would be in paradise.

Thank you for your fruitful questions.
In Christ Jesus
Chris

All good. The details are a little thin. Neither Christ or the thief went directly to heaven. Christ had not ascended to the Father. Sheol is not well understood, even in the Hebrew Bible. But nothing to imply that Sheol was a place of punishment. "Gathered with their fathers" Paradise is probably referring to Sheol. Still a process of elimination...they did not go to heaven or hell. Then you have a hint in the scriptures and a tradition that Christ went and preached the Gospel to those in Sheol. Still thin. Then another tradition of the victory of Christ. Satan and the Jews were expecting a human messiah. In the end Satan found himself facing a full-fledged God. The old cliche, "There is an new sheriff in town" may apply. Sometimes you have to ask yourself...what is it? And what is it not? lol God bless.

 

[Taken]

While reading the accounts of the thief on the cross in the Gospels, it seems that the thief came upon his repentance in the short time on the cross, but what changed his mind, between the time he was reviling Jesus and when he "repented"? In two accounts:

“Even the robbers who were crucified with Him reviled Him” (Matthew 27:44)
“Even those who were crucified with Him reviled Him” (Mark 15:32)

And then in Luke we have: Luke 23:39 "One of the criminals who hung there heaped abuse on Him. “Are You not the Christ?” he said. “Save Yourself and us!”

What was it that changed the mind of the thief who was to see Jesus in Paradise that day? He goes from mocking Jesus to calling Him a King, really. It just hit me strangely, and has me wondering...

Luke 23:
[39] And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.

(One hanging with Jesus, said "IF"...(no Righteousness, no conviction.)

[40] But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?

(The other Rebuked the One, challenging his seemingly DIS-Belief in God.)

[41] And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.

(The Other continued...speaking to the One...acknowledging the Two being sentence to Physical Death was Right according to the Law....while acknowledging Jesus had Committed NO crime worthy of Bodily Death.)

[42] And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

(Here, The Other, speaks directly To Jesus...addresses Him. as Lord!
He continues acknowledging Jesus' Kingdom that Jesus is going to After His Bodily Death, and without selfishness..(as demanding he go with Jesus,)...simply asks Jesus to Remember him.)

It's a demand of One, for FLESH to be saved...(his thought on the flesh)

And the Other, with his dying breath...(having Jesus in his thought,) Righteously acknowledging Jesus did not deserve crucifixion, and honor toward Jesus in how he addressed Jesus, and humbling asking Jesus to remember him.

[43] And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

(Jesus speaks ... Directly to the Other...it didn't matter what that man "had" done...with the Others dying Breath...he was acknowledging Jesus as Lord...an he was forgiven, noted by Jesus' remark

The question is why?

The answer I would say...Began with the Other recognizing what Is RIGHTEOUS according to God...( and saying in his words Jesus had done no Wrong and Stood Up FOR Jesus. )

At that moment...the Other Spoke the TRUTH of God...His words were righteous and he received a "Measure of Faith from God"...(probably the famous mustard seed size of Faith...yet enough to believe, exalt Jesus as Lord, acknowledge Jesus' after Life Kingdom and humbly ask for Jesus' remembrance of him.)

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Base12]

That's exactly what I was referring to. I'll be back tomorrow to discuss.

OK, as promised I'm back to add some more details.

So after looking at the various theories out there, I did the best I could to distill them into a single Slide...

The theory starts out with this verse...

John 19:32
"Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him."

The argument is that the soldiers went in consecutive order along a single row.

If that is the case, the Soldiers would have broke the legs of the first two that were Crucified, then after that they would come to Jesus IN THE MIDDLE of the four.

Does that make sense to anyone?

I think in order to make this theory work, the Malefactor that was saved would have had to have been the first one to die in order for this next verse to avoid contradicting...

Mark 15:32
"Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him."

So there you go. Another way of looking at it.

 

[quietthinker]

OK, as promised I'm back to add some more details.

So after looking at the various theories out there, I did the best I could to distill them into a single Slide...

The theory starts out with this verse...

John 19:32
"Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him."

The argument is that the soldiers went in consecutive order along a single row.

If that is the case, the Soldiers would have broke the legs of the first two that were Crucified, then after that they would come to Jesus IN THE MIDDLE of the four.

Does that make sense to anyone?

I think in order to make this theory work, the Malefactor that was saved would have had to have been the first one to die in order for this next verse to avoid contradicting...

Mark 15:32
"Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him."

So there you go. Another way of looking at it.

Do you make the stories up as you go re 4 crucified alongside Jesus Base12.
No wonder...if you can't get something as simple as this right what chance is their of something complex.

 

[ourforgiveness-com]

I'm still trying to understand if it should say:

a) And Jesus said unto him, verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
b) And Jesus said unto him, verily I say unto thee To day, shalt thou be with me in paradise.

 

[quietthinker]

I'm still trying to understand if it should say:

a) And Jesus said unto him, verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
b) And Jesus said unto him, verily I say unto thee To day, shalt thou be with me in paradise.

The comma comes after today. This becomes obvious as Jesus did not enter Paradise that day.

 

[Giuliano]

All good. The details are a little thin. Neither Christ or the thief went directly to heaven. Christ had not ascended to the Father. Sheol is not well understood, even in the Hebrew Bible. But nothing to imply that Sheol was a place of punishment. "Gathered with their fathers" Paradise is probably referring to Sheol. Still a process of elimination...they did not go to heaven or hell. Then you have a hint in the scriptures and a tradition that Christ went and preached the Gospel to those in Sheol. Still thin. Then another tradition of the victory of Christ. Satan and the Jews were expecting a human messiah. In the end Satan found himself facing a full-fledged God. The old cliche, "There is an new sheriff in town" may apply. Sometimes you have to ask yourself...what is it? And what is it not? lol God bless.

What did the word paradise mean to Jews at the time? It means the same thing to them today. Christians lost track of what the word meant. Some started to believe it meant Heaven although as you point out that can't be right. Paradise means garden. It shouldn't be a big mystery.

By the way, some Jews will tell you that Paradise and Gehinnom are next to each other -- the way Jesus depicted them in the story about the rich man and Lazarus. Could that be right? And Gehinnom is not a place of eternal torment. It's rather like the Catholic purgatory.

 

[Grailhunter]

What did the word paradise mean to Jews at the time? It means the same thing to them today. Christians lost track of what the word meant. Some started to believe it meant Heaven although as you point out that can't be right. Paradise means garden. It shouldn't be a big mystery.

By the way, some Jews will tell you that Paradise and Gehinnom are next to each other -- the way Jesus depicted them in the story about the rich man and Lazarus. Could that be right? And Gehinnom is not a place of eternal torment. It's rather like the Catholic purgatory.

The story about the rich man and Lazarus falls into one of those scholarly debates. Most agree that it is not a real estimation of how heaven and hell works. It had a point to make and it did make that point.

Paradise and garden. The correct translation of Garden of Eden is Paradise of delights. The whole deal about the garden aspect is a different story.

Gehinnom, Sheol, Hades, hell, and Gehenna...You get into these topics and how they relate, and you will chase your tail for a while....invites some guests and you will have a party. The bottom line is that these were multi cultural beliefs and they were evolving before Christ showed up on the scene.

There is no part of the crucifixion to resurrection story that includes a tour of heaven....Sheol...resurrection.... earth....ascending to His Father. The problem is that no matter what there is room to assume some things. Where that thief ended up? Where the souls in Sheol ended up? What exactly happened to those in Sheol....what exactly will happen to those in Sheol? Some people believe the Jews went to hell. I am not one of them. Will they be included in the judgment? This is an event without specifics, so I am only going to be so critical of people that have their own beliefs on the matter.

 

[Base12]

Do you make the stories up as you go re 4 crucified alongside Jesus Base12.
No wonder...if you can't get something as simple as this right what chance is their of something complex.

Bro.
Your Debate Skills need improvement...

You're practically at the bottom here. Just sayin...

 

[DNB]

On one level I am shocked, on another, I am not surprised. I have read through all the replies and nobody has picked up on the obvious. It is a testimony to how unfamiliar the account of the Crucifixion is amongst those who make much of it.

Read the accounts again Nancy. There were two thieves crucified with Jesus. One on his right and one on his left. One reviled Jesus saying 'if you're the Son of God get yourself and us down from here' The other thief rebuked him then addressing Jesus said, 'remember me when you come into your Kingdom' .....two thieves two different responses.

You could say they were types of the two primary classes of people on earth....both are guilty.....yet one thief observed the demeanour with which Jesus carried himself during that whole sordid ordeal. There was no resistance in spite of his intense suffering, even praying for those who were condemning him. In this, though a criminal, he recognised innocence. Even here the Spirit was active in mens hearts. Jesus recognised the call for help and true to his promise 'he who comes to me will I in no wise cast out' responded 'truly I say unto you today, you will be with me in paradise.

Oh the far reaching long suffering of him who made himself of no account to save the least of the children of Adam.

Well, sorry QT, but I'm a little shocked right now also. You seemed to miss the entire issue at hand?
There is a distinct contradiction in Mark & Matthew's accounts, versus that of Luke's. If we conclude that there were only 2 malefactors crucified with Jesus, then Mark & Matthew leave very little room for one of the thieves to repent, since they both reported the mockery of more than one malefactor. That is, more than one, at a minimum, is two (total number of criminals), so there's no one left who didn't engage in the abuse towards Jesus. And yet Luke documents the repentance of one of the criminals. Do you see the conundrum?

“Even the robbers who were crucified with Him reviled Him” (Matthew 27:44)
“Even those who were crucified with Him reviled Him” (Mark 15:32)

No one is questioning how or why one of the criminals would repent (the reasons are endless), but rather, how on such short notice, one can revile him with contempt, then within an hour or two (crucifixion took 3 hrs), consider him to be the Messiah?

BTW, here's another weak supposition, maybe the plural form used in both Matthew & Mark was a generalization, used to denote a category (criminal or crucified), not necessarily all within the entire group? Meaning, the authors are merely remarking that many different types and classes of people, cast their insults and humiliation upon Jesus?

 

[Base12]

I'm still trying to understand if it should say:

a) And Jesus said unto him, verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
b) And Jesus said unto him, verily I say unto thee To day, shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Welcome to the Forum!

I choose 'a)'.

 

[Giuliano]

The story about the rich man and Lazarus falls into one of those scholarly debates. Most agree that it is not a real estimation of how heaven and hell works. It had a point to make and it did make that point.

People tend to interpret to fit their notions. Jews of the time would have known what Jesus meant since it was widely taught that Paradise and Gehinnom were next to each other.

 

[quietthinker]

Bro.
Your Debate Skills need improvement...

You're practically at the bottom here. Just sayin...

Wonderful!....now that you understand all the various levels of approach you will be able to opt for the highest order instead of telling me where I sit......ohhhhh, what category does that come into?

 

[Grailhunter]

People tend to interpret to fit their notions. Jews of the time would have known what Jesus meant since it was widely taught that Paradise and Gehinnom were next to each other.

Would not be surprised at all. You and I know that even within the Jewish sects that beliefs of spiritual things differed. So it would depend on who Yeshua was talking to. Their understanding of heaven, hell, angels, devil, demons, the battle between good and evil....that does not come from the Hebrew Bible. Most of that comes from their time with the Persians. Some it comes from the Essenes. Because of the Persians some of them went back to Daniel and took it a little more seriously. But not all, some Jews did not believe in the resurrection during Christ ministry.