farouk
Well-Known Member
@Christophany One aspect would be the question of whether faith is a work of the flesh or of the Spirit? Galatians 5 comes to mind....
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None do, does your feeling about a verse change dependent upon your pov?So how do you interpret the scriptures in the OP that show regeneration follows faith/repentance ?
Not at all but the verses show a sequence , an order that faith precedes the new birth .None do, does your feeling about a verse change dependent upon your pov?
Not at all but the verses show a sequence , an order that faith precedes the new birth .
The opposite is true . 5:1 has faith before the birth you are reading your doctrine into the passage .The born of God takes precedence as a statement of being, like a fact that you are, and so then you believe.
Scripture is consistent in both Old and New Testaments.
Ezekiel 18:30-32
“Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!
Notice what comes first
1- Repent , turn away from sin
2- the after you repent you get a new heart/spirit ( calvinism- regeneration, new life)
3- repent then you live, have life- ie new heart, spirit.
John has the same order in in his opening of the gospel and in his purpose statement for writing his gospel.
John 1:12-13
“Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.
Same order as above receive, believe then the new birth follows.
John 20:31
“But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
Once again the order is consistent with the OT- belief/repentance precedes life.
Acts tells us the same order in 11:18- "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.” Repent precedes life.
Paul confirms the order in Ephesians below as well. Hearing and believing precedes the Holy Spirit that we were sealed with not before belief.
Ephesians 1:13
“And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit
James and Peter have the same exact order in James 1:18 , 1 Peter 1:23.
See how scripture is consistent when you do not read your doctrine into it but read it objectively, without bias ?
Former Calvinist for 40 years. I'm just a Christian now, no labels.
hope this helps !!!
Still it is the opposite of what you say.The opposite is true . 5:1 has faith before the birth you are reading your doctrine into the passage .
Whosoever believeth] Or, Every one that believeth: the construction is identical with that in 1 John 2:29, 1 John 3:3-4, 1 John 4:2-3; 1 John 4:7, and in the second half of this verse. See concluding note on 1 John 3:4. The verb ‘believe’, which occurs only 3 times in the rest of the Epistle, occurs 6 times in these first 13 verses. After the third verse the word ‘love’, which has been the keyword of the last two chapters, ceases to appear. With the first sentence comp. John 1:12.
The verse is a couple of syllogisms condensed into an irregular Sorites.
Every one who believes the Incarnation is a child of God.
Every child of God loves its Father.
… Every believer in the Incarnation loves God.
Every believer in the Incarnation loves God.
Every one who loves God loves the children of God.
… Every believer in the Incarnation loves the children of God.
To believe that Jesus is the Christ is to believe that One who was known as a man fulfilled a known and Divine commission; that He who was born and was crucified is the Anointed, the Messiah of Israel, the Saviour of the world. To believe this is to accept both the Old and the New Testaments; it is to believe that Jesus is what He claimed to be, One who is equal with the Father, and as such demands of every believer the absolute surrender of self to Him. Belief without love is, as S. Augustine remarks, the belief of a demon (James 2:19).
is born of God] Better, in order to be uniform with what follows, is begotten of God: see on 1 John 5:18.
him also that is begotten of him] Any believer. Here again the verb (ἀγαπᾷ) may be either the indicative or the hortative subjunctive: as in 1 John 4:19, the indicative is preferable; ‘loveth’, not ‘let him love’.
This verse shews that 1 John 4:20 ought not to be interpreted to mean that through love of the visible brother we ascend to the love of the invisible God. On the contrary the love of the Father is the source of love of His children. “That is the natural order; that, we may say it confidently, is the universal order” (Maurice). Cambridge
hope this helps !!!
There is nothing to untangle since it’s clear faith precedes the new birth .People have been trying to place these inpropewr order for centuries!
Faith comes with regeneration, and regeneration comes with faith! Repentance (meta-noia) or a change of mind, can only come by faith and regeneration, And faith and regeneration do not occur in time in a persons life without repentance or a change of mind! Hope I untangles this for you!
Well Jesus disagrees with you.There is nothing to untangle since it’s clear faith precedes the new birth .
There is nothing to untangle since it’s clear faith precedes the new birth .
@Ronald Nolette I reckon Galatians sheds some light on whether faith is a work of the flesh or a work of the Spirit (chapter 5, in the fruit of the Spirit passage...)Well I tend to believe that, but I will not put them in any specific order for they occur almost all at once! YOu don't have faith on tuesday and then get saved on Wednesday.
No He doesn’t lol , where ?Well Jesus disagrees with you.
@Ronald Nolette I reckon Galatians sheds some light on whether faith is a work of the flesh or a work of the Spirit (chapter 5, in the fruit of the Spirit passage...)