@Christophany One aspect would be the question of whether faith is a work of the flesh or of the Spirit? Galatians 5 comes to mind....
What comes first ? Faith or Regeneration
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Not at all but the verses show a sequence , an order that faith precedes the new birth .
Various versions of 1 John 5:1, read and see that the verse easily says that if you had been born of God, you believe, the believing part dependent upon the has, have, born of God part
Like what comes first, the chick or the egg. the egg produces the chick, so then God produces the born again part so then because of Him you are in Christ Jesus.
ESV
Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him.
KJ21
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and every one that loveth Him that begot, loveth Him also that is begotten by Him.
ASV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is begotten of God: and whosoever loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
AMP
Everyone who believes [with a deep, abiding trust in the fact] that Jesus is the Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed) is born of God [that is, reborn from above—spiritually transformed, renewed, and set apart for His purpose], and everyone who loves the Father also loves the child born of Him.
AMPC
Everyone who believes (adheres to, trusts, and relies on the fact) that Jesus is the Christ (the Messiah) is a born-again child of God; and everyone who loves the Father also loves the one born of Him (His offspring).
The born of God takes precedence as a statement of being, like a fact that you are, and so then you believe.
1 Corinthians 1:30 NKJV
But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption—
ESV
And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption,
But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption—
ESV
And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption,
The opposite is true . 5:1 has faith before the birth you are reading your doctrine into the passage .
Whosoever believeth] Or, Every one that believeth: the construction is identical with that in 1 John 2:29, 1 John 3:3-4, 1 John 4:2-3; 1 John 4:7, and in the second half of this verse. See concluding note on 1 John 3:4. The verb ‘believe’, which occurs only 3 times in the rest of the Epistle, occurs 6 times in these first 13 verses. After the third verse the word ‘love’, which has been the keyword of the last two chapters, ceases to appear. With the first sentence comp. John 1:12.
The verse is a couple of syllogisms condensed into an irregular Sorites.
Every one who believes the Incarnation is a child of God.
Every child of God loves its Father.
… Every believer in the Incarnation loves God.
Every believer in the Incarnation loves God.
Every one who loves God loves the children of God.
… Every believer in the Incarnation loves the children of God.
To believe that Jesus is the Christ is to believe that One who was known as a man fulfilled a known and Divine commission; that He who was born and was crucified is the Anointed, the Messiah of Israel, the Saviour of the world. To believe this is to accept both the Old and the New Testaments; it is to believe that Jesus is what He claimed to be, One who is equal with the Father, and as such demands of every believer the absolute surrender of self to Him. Belief without love is, as S. Augustine remarks, the belief of a demon (James 2:19).
is born of God] Better, in order to be uniform with what follows, is begotten of God: see on 1 John 5:18.
him also that is begotten of him] Any believer. Here again the verb (ἀγαπᾷ) may be either the indicative or the hortative subjunctive: as in 1 John 4:19, the indicative is preferable; ‘loveth’, not ‘let him love’.
This verse shews that 1 John 4:20 ought not to be interpreted to mean that through love of the visible brother we ascend to the love of the invisible God. On the contrary the love of the Father is the source of love of His children. “That is the natural order; that, we may say it confidently, is the universal order” (Maurice). Cambridge
hope this helps !!!
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
People have been trying to place these inpropewr order for centuries!
Faith comes with regeneration, and regeneration comes with faith! Repentance (meta-noia) or a change of mind, can only come by faith and regeneration, And faith and regeneration do not occur in time in a persons life without repentance or a change of mind! Hope I untangles this for you!
Still it is the opposite of what you say.
Your reading the opinion of men and their doctrine as well.
Jesus also tells us in John 3:3 this
3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
What do you suppose 'cannot see' means? , see does not mean enter, it means to perceive or want anything to do with the kingdom of God, so then he wants nothing to do with Christ then, certainly wont be believing in Christ then.
here is see, what it means in that scripture, so then see what I mean.
G3708 - horaō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)
also means 'to stare at', like notice. Such a person will have no interest in Christ
G3708 - horaō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)
also means 'to stare at', like notice. Such a person will have no interest in Christ
- to see with the eyes
- to see with the mind, to perceive, know
- to see, i.e. become acquainted with by experience, to experience
- to see, to look to
- to take heed, beware
- to care for, pay heed to
- to take heed, beware
- I was seen, showed myself, appeared
There is nothing to untangle since it’s clear faith precedes the new birth .
In fact, Jesus places an emphasis on this, as in cannot, no way, absolute negative, see the kingdom of God.
John 3 :: King James Version (KJV)
The sequence of the words G1410, G3756, G3708
says this
G1410 he cannot, G3756 A primary word, the absolute negative [cf μή (G3361)] adverb, G3708 see
John 3 :: King James Version (KJV)
The sequence of the words G1410, G3756, G3708
says this
G1410 he cannot, G3756 A primary word, the absolute negative [cf μή (G3361)] adverb, G3708 see
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Well I tend to believe that, but I will not put them in any specific order for they occur almost all at once! YOu don't have faith on tuesday and then get saved on Wednesday.
@Ronald Nolette I reckon Galatians sheds some light on whether faith is a work of the flesh or a work of the Spirit (chapter 5, in the fruit of the Spirit passage...)
No He doesn’t lol , where ?
I was a Calvinist for over 40 years I’m well aware of all the verses on the topic since I defended them all that time .
1 Peter says we are born again because of His great mercy, not because of our faith
Peter also states we are chosen according to foreknowledge to believe as in be obedient to Christ who said repent and believe.
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, 2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood:
Grace and peace be yours in abundance.
Praise to God for a Living Hope
3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
Peter also states we are chosen according to foreknowledge to believe as in be obedient to Christ who said repent and believe.
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, 2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood:
Grace and peace be yours in abundance.
Praise to God for a Living Hope
3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
I don't care what anyone believes, no one can make someone a believer, no man can educate someone to believe in Christ, that is not the operation of the New Covenant, read Hebrews 8. But I will tell people what scripture says. God is in control of our salvation as salvation is 'OF THE LORD'. People that don't acknowledge that truth miss a lot of other truths. God deals in absolutes, black and white, not shades of grey like a man does. There is only one truth, yet many deceivers.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
absolutely! faith is a gift from God! We are given saving faith and that faith regenerates us!
