What comes first ? Faith or Regeneration

[ChristisGod]

Scripture is consistent in both Old and New Testaments.


Ezekiel 18:30-32
“Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!

Notice what comes first

1- Repent , turn away from sin
2- the after you repent you get a new heart/spirit ( calvinism- regeneration, new life)
3- repent then you live, have life- ie new heart, spirit.

John has the same order in in his opening of the gospel and in his purpose statement for writing his gospel.

John 1:12-13
“Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

Same order as above receive, believe then the new birth follows.

John 20:31
“But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Once again the order is consistent with the OT- belief/repentance precedes life.

Acts tells us the same order in 11:18- "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.” Repent precedes life.

Paul confirms the order in Ephesians below as well. Hearing and believing precedes the Holy Spirit that we were sealed with not before belief.

Ephesians 1:13
“And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit

James and Peter have the same exact order in James 1:18 , 1 Peter 1:23.

See how scripture is consistent when you do not read your doctrine into it but read it objectively, without bias ?

Former Calvinist for 40 years. I'm just a Christian now, no labels.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

Regeneration before faith.
If God does not first regenerate people before they trust in Christ as Savior, that faith is something people produced on their own, making salvation dependent on them instead of on God.

RC Sproul said “Luther said, “justification is by faith alone, but not by faith that is alone,” and then he went on to say, “the faith that justifies,” Luther said, “is a fides viva;” a living faith, a faith that is alive. Where does that faith come from? And this question probably more than any other is what defines the essence of reformed theology. If there’s one phrase that captures the essence of reformed theology, it is the little phrase, regeneration precedes faith. That is the power of faith, the power of believing, is a result not of an act of our will independently, but it is the fruit of God’s sovereign act of changing the disposition of our hearts and giving to us the gift of faith.“

the Westminster Confessions Chpt 10 part 1;
“All those whom God hath predestinated unto life, and those ONLY, he is pleased, in his appointed and accepted time, EFFECTUALLY TO CALL by his Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death, in which THEY ARE BY NATURE, to grace and salvation, by Jesus Christ; enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God, taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them a heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and, by his almighty power, DETERMINING THEM to that which is good, and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ: yet so, as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace.”

i highlighted the key parts in the WCF.

 

[Scott Downey]

The unregenrates cant not believe Christ as Lord, they do not receive what they can not know, and they can not know HIM unless HE makes them have a new heart.

1 Corinthians 2
9 But as it is written:

“Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,
Nor have entered into the heart of man
The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.”

10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.

13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. 16 For “who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

How does v12 relate? well we wont know spiritual things of God, unless we have received Him and we dont receive Christ as Lord unless born again cause every good and perfect gift comes from the Father to His children.

AND what did Jesus tell Peter when Peter confesses Jesus is God's Christ? Jesus tells Peter flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father which is in Heaven revealed this to you.

 

[GEN2REV]

It seems to me that Faith must come first.

Consider:
John 6:44
Ephesians 2:8

One must first believe before they begin to make amends and repent. Without belief, what would be the catalyst for change? Only when we believe do we see our faults and desire to repair them.

 

[marks]

Those who put regeneration prerequisite to faith, is it that you think this:

John 1 KJV
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

John 1 NASB
11 He came to His own, and His own people did not accept Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of a man, but of God.

Do you think these are faithful translations?

Much love!

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

Those who put regeneration prerequisite to faith, is it that you think this:

John 1 KJV
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

John 1 NASB
11 He came to His own, and His own people did not accept Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of a man, but of God.

Do you think these are faithful translations?

Much love!

wrong verses.

 

[marks]

wrong verses.

No real response, just this little potshot? Why did you bother? I always wonder that!

Much love!

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

No real response, just this little potshot? Why did you bother? I always wonder that!

Much love!

*sighs* let me help you out.
2 Corinthians 4:4
John 6:44
Ephesians 2:1
1 peter 1:3
Ephesians 2:8

1 john is full of explaining this, texts from 1 John demonstrate that regeneration precedes faith. The texts are as follows: “If you know that he is righteous, you may be sure that everyone who practices righteousness has been born of him” (1 John 2:29). “No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God” (1 John 3:9). “Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God” (1 John 4:7). “Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whomever has been born of him” (1 John 5:1).
no christian would say that before we are born again we must practice righteousness, for such a view would teach works-righteousness. Nor would we say that first we avoid sinning, and then are born of God, for such a view would suggest that human works cause us to be born of God. Nor would we say that first we show great love for God, and then he causes us to be born again. No, it is clear that practicing righteousness, avoiding sin, and loving are all the consequences or results of the new birth. But if this is the case, then we must interpret 1 John 5:1 in the same way, for the structure of the verse is the same as we find in the texts about practicing righteousness (1 John 2:29), avoiding sin (1 John 3:9), and loving God (1 John 4:7). It follows, then, that 1 John 5:1 teaches that first God grants us new life and then we believe Jesus is the Christ.

hope that helps.

 

[marks]

hope that helps.

Why do you want to avoid the passage I posted that answers this question directly with a clear statement?

Rebirth follows believing, plainly stated.

Maybe that's why?

Much love!

 

[AceWestfall08]

Passages in the Bible are great and all, but they are milk compared to actual testimony. What people need is examples of God working in there life to back up scriptures. For me its a mixed case. I know scriptures decently well, more than the average person, but scriptures doesn't do it for me. Its having examples in my life where a door has opened up to me when all doors behind me were closing fast and I had nowhere to turn. It's when I'm in my darkest times, I can think about the pillars of my faith to find the precious inner comfort that I treasure. That is my rebirth. Going from Knowing the Story of Jesus, but not it being important to me. To knowing God is real, and the Spirit, and that my thoughts and feelings are heard and respected.

When I read scriptures, its a mixed bag for me. I find it fascinating and miraculous Christianity popped up so fast. Something definitely happened. But I don't trust the bias of the writers. Having experienced the feeling of being Chosen by God, I too wanted to inspire others and try to get others to know God. But I also developed a "messiah complex". A over inflated ego. And with that comes exaggerations and extremes. Religious fantasies and delusion. I experienced this firsthand, and was even diagnosed Schizophrenic because of it. I tend to think the authors of the Bible put on a little extra or put their own interpretations into the writing. I just dont think the scripture is perfect verbatim 100%.

There are things in the Bible that give me hope and strengthen me. But there are also things and lessons I don't believe in.
Such as when "You must Believe Jesus is the Savior and Died and was Resurrected" or you won't have a relationship with God. I don't think that is the case. You can have your doubts and still be on Good terms with God. I'm a living example. I fully believe in the "Father" and the "Holy Spirit" because I have examples in my life. I know Jesus's story, but I cant say I believe 100%. Doing so would put me in this mindset, immature in my faith, building my house upon sand.

When people say "rebirth" they usually refer to the new attitude they have towards God once they start believing. I had went to church as a child and knew the story, but I didn't take it to heart. Then I had a vision in my early 20's where "someone" (a floating head) spoke to me and gave me an Oath "Thomas, I swear by my Great Name you are mine!" If I go to scriptures to back up my vision, it says nobody has seen the Face of God but the Jesus. And I also read about How God swears by his own name to Abraham that he would have many descendants. This bit of scripture doesn't add up with my actual Experience. To me, this is the Father, he looked Fatherly to me anyways and presented himself that way. This vision was not a dream, not a memory, it wasn't in the "real world". It was an "experience" that was just planted in my brain, and i remember it vividly like it actually happened. Details of what I was thinking during the experience. Something like I've never had before. I would call it a Revelation. Just before I saw the floating head, my father claimed to be gabriel inside my fathers body and told me he couldn't be in a body of sin, then he raised his hand and I felt warm liquid being poured over me. To me this is the baptism of spirit scriptures refers to.

The second even or pillar of my faith ties in with the Holy Spirit. A few months prior to the event, my dad was doing his "God Thing" (seeking/learning/etc.) on his own due to a hardship that he was experiencing. One day we started talking about it, at this point, i had very little interest in God, but that is because i didn't believe 100%. He started talking about the Pentecosts and the new church he was going to. Explaining to the "gift of tongues". Again my feeling on tongues in a mixed bag. The way it was presented to me by my father was that when you pray in tongues in private, its the spirit inside of you making intercession for you on your behalf because, you yourself do not know what to pray for yourself. My dad then prayed in tongues one time in front of me, and i was exposed to it for the first time.

I remember the first time i heard it, i thought the sounds were so strange that it must be from God and I succumbed emotionally in tears of happiness just hearing them. Because of this I started asking God myself for the gift of tongues. I remember how excited I felt the first time I uttered these strange noises from my mouth and without even thinking about it while doing it. I could go on and on for hours without stopping if I wanted to without putting thought into it. At first it was excited praying in tongues, but it soon became boring. It was just me muttering things while sitting there. For me praying in tongues in just a way of getting my feelings off my chest without putting them into words. Which has its benefits.

One I was chilling with my friends and I had a panic attack for no reason. I had never had one before. As this power fell over me, I started feeling terrified and hopeless. I started thinking God was going to smite me on the spot and I started crying uncontrollably on the spot. I started praying in tongues in front of my friends and I then felt this reassuring/peaceful feeling wash over me. Calming me. Like I was a toddler being picked up by my parent. All of a sudden, my mind was taken control of. I lost all control of my thoughts and I felt this power force thoughts into my mind accompanied by an audible voice only I could hear that said "Thomas, you are the lonely sparrow, but I have given you wings. Oh what mighty wings they are, spread them and fly!". Then the power left me gradually in the space of a few seconds, and i felt saddened for it to leave.

God is real, but a dying needs to happen. The purpose of the Rebirth is to get intimate with God. To fully surrender yourselves to him. When I say surrender, i don't mean as a slave or servant. But more as, being open with him and honest with him. Not hiding your true feelings and doubts. Rebirth is about being yourself with God, instead of projecting an image about how you feel bout God, or being dishonest with yourself about who you really are with God.

 

[marks]

John 6:44

. . . and if I be lifted up I will draw all men to Myself . . .

The cross changed things.

Much love!

 

[marks]

*sighs* let me help you out.
2 Corinthians 4:4
John 6:44
Ephesians 2:1
1 peter 1:3
Ephesians 2:8

I'm sorry, you've posted a list of verses, but which if these say something that should cause us to feel we have to reject the plain sense of what I posted from John 1? As I look through them, none of them do. Would you like to post the full passage and point out which words say this to you?

Much love!

 

[GEN2REV]

Passages in the Bible are great and all, but they are milk compared to actual testimony. What people need is examples of God working in there life to back up scriptures. For me its a mixed case. I know scriptures decently well, more than the average person, but scriptures doesn't do it for me. Its having examples in my life where a door has opened up to me when all doors behind me were closing fast and I had nowhere to turn. It's when I'm in my darkest times, I can think about the pillars of my faith to find the precious inner comfort that I treasure. That is my rebirth. Going from Knowing the Story of Jesus, but not it being important to me. To knowing God is real, and the Spirit, and that my thoughts and feelings are heard and respected.

When I read scriptures, its a mixed bag for me. I find it fascinating and miraculous Christianity popped up so fast. Something definitely happened. But I don't trust the bias of the writers. Having experienced the feeling of being Chosen by God, I too wanted to inspire others and try to get others to know God. But I also developed a "messiah complex". A over inflated ego. And with that comes exaggerations and extremes. Religious fantasies and delusion. I experienced this firsthand, and was even diagnosed Schizophrenic because of it. I tend to think the authors of the Bible put on a little extra or put their own interpretations into the writing. I just dont think the scripture is perfect verbatim 100%.

There are things in the Bible that give me hope and strengthen me. But there are also things and lessons I don't believe in.
Such as when "You must Believe Jesus is the Savior and Died and was Resurrected" or you won't have a relationship with God. I don't think that is the case. You can have your doubts and still be on Good terms with God. I'm a living example. I fully believe in the "Father" and the "Holy Spirit" because I have examples in my life. I know Jesus's story, but I cant say I believe 100%. Doing so would put me in this mindset, immature in my faith, building my house upon sand.

When people say "rebirth" they usually refer to the new attitude they have towards God once they start believing. I had went to church as a child and knew the story, but I didn't take it to heart. Then I had a vision in my early 20's where "someone" (a floating head) spoke to me and gave me an Oath "Thomas, I swear by my Great Name you are mine!" If I go to scriptures to back up my vision, it says nobody has seen the Face of God but the Jesus. And I also read about How God swears by his own name to Abraham that he would have many descendants. This bit of scripture doesn't add up with my actual Experience. To me, this is the Father, he looked Fatherly to me anyways and presented himself that way. This vision was not a dream, not a memory, it wasn't in the "real world". It was an "experience" that was just planted in my brain, and i remember it vividly like it actually happened. Details of what I was thinking during the experience. Something like I've never had before. I would call it a Revelation. Just before I saw the floating head, my father claimed to be gabriel inside my fathers body and told me he couldn't be in a body of sin, then he raised his hand and I felt warm liquid being poured over me. To me this is the baptism of spirit scriptures refers to.

The second even or pillar of my faith ties in with the Holy Spirit. A few months prior to the event, my dad was doing his "God Thing" (seeking/learning/etc.) on his own due to a hardship that he was experiencing. One day we started talking about it, at this point, i had very little interest in God, but that is because i didn't believe 100%. He started talking about the Pentecosts and the new church he was going to. Explaining to the "gift of tongues". Again my feeling on tongues in a mixed bag. The way it was presented to me by my father was that when you pray in tongues in private, its the spirit inside of you making intercession for you on your behalf because, you yourself do not know what to pray for yourself. My dad then prayed in tongues one time in front of me, and i was exposed to it for the first time.

I remember the first time i heard it, i thought the sounds were so strange that it must be from God and I succumbed emotionally in tears of happiness just hearing them. Because of this I started asking God myself for the gift of tongues. I remember how excited I felt the first time I uttered these strange noises from my mouth and without even thinking about it while doing it. I could go on and on for hours without stopping if I wanted to without putting thought into it. At first it was excited praying in tongues, but it soon became boring. It was just me muttering things while sitting there. For me praying in tongues in just a way of getting my feelings off my chest without putting them into words. Which has its benefits.

One I was chilling with my friends and I had a panic attack for no reason. I had never had one before. As this power fell over me, I started feeling terrified and hopeless. I started thinking God was going to smite me on the spot and I started crying uncontrollably on the spot. I started praying in tongues in front of my friends and I then felt this reassuring/peaceful feeling wash over me. Calming me. Like I was a toddler being picked up by my parent. All of a sudden, my mind was taken control of. I lost all control of my thoughts and I felt this power force thoughts into my mind accompanied by an audible voice only I could hear that said "Thomas, you are the lonely sparrow, but I have given you wings. Oh what mighty wings they are, spread them and fly!". Then the power left me gradually in the space of a few seconds, and i felt saddened for it to leave.

God is real, but a dying needs to happen. The purpose of the Rebirth is to get intimate with God. To fully surrender yourselves to him. When I say surrender, i don't mean as a slave or servant. But more as, being open with him and honest with him. Not hiding your true feelings and doubts. Rebirth is about being yourself with God, instead of projecting an image about how you feel bout God, or being dishonest with yourself about who you really are with God.

Wow.

Another faithless new member with a name and 2 digits talking about the Bethel Church holy spirit experience, tongues and all.

Hmmm...

 

[AceWestfall08]

Wow.

Another faithless new member with a name and 2 digits talking about the Bethel Church holy spirit experience, tongues and all.

Hmmm...

Tongues does not induce the holy Spirit sir. I have my doubts on tongues. I find it merely as a way of worshipping God. Such as Christian Music, Going to Church, Reading Scriptures, meditating on god. Its one of many tools in the toolbox. Whats important is how you really feel towards God. Your attitude tells me all I need to know about you. "May God judge between me and you and hold us both accountable towards each other"

He knows our hearts.

Faithless, haha. Let me remind you of the Apostle Thomas and how Faithless he was. Yet he was the one who was most touched in the heart to see Jesus.

If you are satisfied and find meaning in something small in your life buddy go for it. I'm not judging. But for me, my faith is the SOURCE of my happiness, my cheery attitude. Knowing I am his, free from the burden and shackles of mandatory requirements of belief and faith. Without it, my faith, my wings per say, i'd be this resenting angry man, probably spreading fear and attacking other people's faith.

 

[farouk]

Tongues does not induce the holy Spirit sir. I have my doubts on tongues. I find it merely as a way of worshipping God. Such as Christian Music, Going to Church, Reading Scriptures, meditating on god. Its one of many tools in the toolbox. Whats important is how you really feel towards God. Your attitude tells me all I need to know about you. "May God judge between me and you and hold us both accountable towards each other"

He knows our hearts.

Faithless, haha. Let me remind you of the Apostle Thomas and how Faithless he was. Yet he was the one who was most touched in the heart to see Jesus.

If you are satisfied and find meaning in something small in your life buddy go for it. I'm not judging. But for me, my faith is the SOURCE of my happiness, my cheery attitude. Knowing I am his, free from the burden and shackles of mandatory requirements of belief and faith. Without it, my faith, my wings per say, i'd be this resenting angry man, probably spreading fear and attacking other people's faith.

@AceWestfall08 The Lord Jesus in John 3 speaks of the new birth; and there is nothing there about speaking in tongues...

 

[farouk]

Passages in the Bible are great and all, but they are milk compared to actual testimony. What people need is examples of God working in there life to back up scriptures. For me its a mixed case. I know scriptures decently well, more than the average person, but scriptures doesn't do it for me. Its having examples in my life where a door has opened up to me when all doors behind me were closing fast and I had nowhere to turn. It's when I'm in my darkest times, I can think about the pillars of my faith to find the precious inner comfort that I treasure. That is my rebirth. Going from Knowing the Story of Jesus, but not it being important to me. To knowing God is real, and the Spirit, and that my thoughts and feelings are heard and respected.

When I read scriptures, its a mixed bag for me. I find it fascinating and miraculous Christianity popped up so fast. Something definitely happened. But I don't trust the bias of the writers. Having experienced the feeling of being Chosen by God, I too wanted to inspire others and try to get others to know God. But I also developed a "messiah complex". A over inflated ego. And with that comes exaggerations and extremes. Religious fantasies and delusion. I experienced this firsthand, and was even diagnosed Schizophrenic because of it. I tend to think the authors of the Bible put on a little extra or put their own interpretations into the writing. I just dont think the scripture is perfect verbatim 100%.

There are things in the Bible that give me hope and strengthen me. But there are also things and lessons I don't believe in.
Such as when "You must Believe Jesus is the Savior and Died and was Resurrected" or you won't have a relationship with God. I don't think that is the case. You can have your doubts and still be on Good terms with God. I'm a living example. I fully believe in the "Father" and the "Holy Spirit" because I have examples in my life. I know Jesus's story, but I cant say I believe 100%. Doing so would put me in this mindset, immature in my faith, building my house upon sand.

When people say "rebirth" they usually refer to the new attitude they have towards God once they start believing. I had went to church as a child and knew the story, but I didn't take it to heart. Then I had a vision in my early 20's where "someone" (a floating head) spoke to me and gave me an Oath "Thomas, I swear by my Great Name you are mine!" If I go to scriptures to back up my vision, it says nobody has seen the Face of God but the Jesus. And I also read about How God swears by his own name to Abraham that he would have many descendants. This bit of scripture doesn't add up with my actual Experience. To me, this is the Father, he looked Fatherly to me anyways and presented himself that way. This vision was not a dream, not a memory, it wasn't in the "real world". It was an "experience" that was just planted in my brain, and i remember it vividly like it actually happened. Details of what I was thinking during the experience. Something like I've never had before. I would call it a Revelation. Just before I saw the floating head, my father claimed to be gabriel inside my fathers body and told me he couldn't be in a body of sin, then he raised his hand and I felt warm liquid being poured over me. To me this is the baptism of spirit scriptures refers to.

The second even or pillar of my faith ties in with the Holy Spirit. A few months prior to the event, my dad was doing his "God Thing" (seeking/learning/etc.) on his own due to a hardship that he was experiencing. One day we started talking about it, at this point, i had very little interest in God, but that is because i didn't believe 100%. He started talking about the Pentecosts and the new church he was going to. Explaining to the "gift of tongues". Again my feeling on tongues in a mixed bag. The way it was presented to me by my father was that when you pray in tongues in private, its the spirit inside of you making intercession for you on your behalf because, you yourself do not know what to pray for yourself. My dad then prayed in tongues one time in front of me, and i was exposed to it for the first time.

I remember the first time i heard it, i thought the sounds were so strange that it must be from God and I succumbed emotionally in tears of happiness just hearing them. Because of this I started asking God myself for the gift of tongues. I remember how excited I felt the first time I uttered these strange noises from my mouth and without even thinking about it while doing it. I could go on and on for hours without stopping if I wanted to without putting thought into it. At first it was excited praying in tongues, but it soon became boring. It was just me muttering things while sitting there. For me praying in tongues in just a way of getting my feelings off my chest without putting them into words. Which has its benefits.

One I was chilling with my friends and I had a panic attack for no reason. I had never had one before. As this power fell over me, I started feeling terrified and hopeless. I started thinking God was going to smite me on the spot and I started crying uncontrollably on the spot. I started praying in tongues in front of my friends and I then felt this reassuring/peaceful feeling wash over me. Calming me. Like I was a toddler being picked up by my parent. All of a sudden, my mind was taken control of. I lost all control of my thoughts and I felt this power force thoughts into my mind accompanied by an audible voice only I could hear that said "Thomas, you are the lonely sparrow, but I have given you wings. Oh what mighty wings they are, spread them and fly!". Then the power left me gradually in the space of a few seconds, and i felt saddened for it to leave.

God is real, but a dying needs to happen. The purpose of the Rebirth is to get intimate with God. To fully surrender yourselves to him. When I say surrender, i don't mean as a slave or servant. But more as, being open with him and honest with him. Not hiding your true feelings and doubts. Rebirth is about being yourself with God, instead of projecting an image about how you feel bout God, or being dishonest with yourself about who you really are with God.

I do believe that testimony commends and honours Scripture, rather than Scripture supposedly needed the addition of the further authority of testimony. Psalm 119.89; Psalm 119.105; John 17.17.

 

[ChristisGod]

Regeneration before faith.
If God does not first regenerate people before they trust in Christ as Savior, that faith is something people produced on their own, making salvation dependent on them instead of on God.

RC Sproul said “Luther said, “justification is by faith alone, but not by faith that is alone,” and then he went on to say, “the faith that justifies,” Luther said, “is a fides viva;” a living faith, a faith that is alive. Where does that faith come from? And this question probably more than any other is what defines the essence of reformed theology. If there’s one phrase that captures the essence of reformed theology, it is the little phrase, regeneration precedes faith. That is the power of faith, the power of believing, is a result not of an act of our will independently, but it is the fruit of God’s sovereign act of changing the disposition of our hearts and giving to us the gift of faith.“

the Westminster Confessions Chpt 10 part 1;
“All those whom God hath predestinated unto life, and those ONLY, he is pleased, in his appointed and accepted time, EFFECTUALLY TO CALL by his Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death, in which THEY ARE BY NATURE, to grace and salvation, by Jesus Christ; enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God, taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them a heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and, by his almighty power, DETERMINING THEM to that which is good, and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ: yet so, as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace.”

i highlighted the key parts in the WCF.

I was asking about Scripture, not anything outside written by uninspired men. But thanks for your ideas anyways.

 

[ChristisGod]

The unregenrates cant not believe Christ as Lord, they do not receive what they can not know, and they can not know HIM unless HE makes them have a new heart.

1 Corinthians 2
9 But as it is written:

“Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,
Nor have entered into the heart of man
The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.”

10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.

13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. 16 For “who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

How does v12 relate? well we wont know spiritual things of God, unless we have received Him and we dont receive Christ as Lord unless born again cause every good and perfect gift comes from the Father to His children.

AND what did Jesus tell Peter when Peter confesses Jesus is God's Christ? Jesus tells Peter flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father which is in Heaven revealed this to you.

So how do you interpret the scriptures in the OP that show regeneration follows faith/repentance ?

 

[ChristisGod]

It seems to me that Faith must come first.

Consider:
John 6:44
Ephesians 2:8

One must first believe before they begin to make amends and repent. Without belief, what would be the catalyst for change? Only when we believe do we see our faults and desire to repair them.

Agreed

 

[ChristisGod]

I'm sorry, you've posted a list of verses, but which if these say something that should cause us to feel we have to reject the plain sense of what I posted from John 1? As I look through them, none of them do. Would you like to post the full passage and point out which words say this to you?

Much love!

Yes John 1:12-13 show an order/sequence that places faith/receive before becoming a child of God via the new birth.