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What constitutes penance!

Discussion in 'The Church Forum' started by theefaith, Mar 13, 2022.

  1. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    Jhn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
     
  2. theefaith

    theefaith Well-Known Member

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    still must be taught
    Lk 1:4 Matt 28:19 acts 8:31
     
  3. theefaith

    theefaith Well-Known Member

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    you brought up authority

    All scripture is inspired not Greek
    Not context
    Not books paragraphs or verse numbers

    is scripture limited to the “Bible alone”?

    penance in general
    Prayer
    Alms
    Fasting

    self denial
    carrying the cross

    Christ did all these and we must imitate Him
    Our model in holiness

    the servant is not greater than the master
     
  4. theefaith

    theefaith Well-Known Member

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    cos He ascended to heaven and Peter and the apostles and their successors are in authority
     
  5. theefaith

    theefaith Well-Known Member

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    Yes that’s true
    But not without baptism

    and just cos you have passed from death to life don’t mean you cannot go back to death
    We have free will and can reject Christ in apostasy
    That’s why it says abide in me cos we must choose to do so
    And believe with correct faith and until death

    Matt 24:13 endures to the end.

    Mark 13:13
    And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

    Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

    Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

    Heb 6:11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:

    1. Romans 11:22 – God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness

    2. Colossians 1:21-23 – holy and blameless, if you continue in the faith"

    3. The race of faith: the example of Paul

    4. Hebrews 12:22-25: "we shall not escape if we turn away from Him"

    5. Hebrews 4:1-3, 9-12: "strive to enter the rest of God"

    6.Hebrews 6:4-9 – those who became partakers of the holy spirit and fell away

    7. Hebrews 10:23-29, 35-39: "if we sin willfully", "if anyone draws back".

    8. Matthew 24:13: He that endures to the end, the same shall be saved

    9. Hebrews 3:4-6: Holding fast our confidence firm until the end

    10. Matthew 24:13: "But the one who endures to the end will be saved"

    11. 1 John 2:24-25 – "if what you heard from the beginning abides in you"

    12. 2 John 8-9 : to "everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ

    13. 2 Peter 1:5-11 : "Make every effort to supplement your faith"

    14. Philippians 2:12-16: "work out your salvation with fear and trembling"

    15. 1 Timothy 6:10-16: the love of money

    16. Galatians 5:2-4 "Severed from Christ"

    17. 2 Timothy 2:11-13: "if we deny him, he will also deny us"

    18. James 5:19-20: the wandered brother

    19. Some will abandon the faith

    20. 1 Timothy 5:8: "he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever"

    22. The real family of Jesus: "Those who hear the Word of God and do it"

    23. 1 Corinthians 5:5: "so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord"

    24. Peter 2: "It would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness"

    25. Jude: "Turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness" - a much relevant warning

    26. 1 Cor. 9:27 ....Lest I myself might become a castaway

    Romans 13:11
    And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

    So salvation by “faith alone” is completely false and impossible!
     
  6. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    Mat 6:5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
    Mat 6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
    Mat 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
    Mat 6:8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

    Mat 6:1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.
    Mat 6:2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
     
  7. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    Isa 58:1 Cry aloud, spare not, lift up thy voice like a trumpet, and shew my people their transgression, and the house of Jacob their sins.
    Isa 58:2 Yet they seek me daily, and delight to know my ways, as a nation that did righteousness, and forsook not the ordinance of their God: they ask of me the ordinances of justice; they take delight in approaching to God.
    Isa 58:3 Wherefore have we fasted, say they, and thou seest not? wherefore have we afflicted our soul, and thou takest no knowledge? Behold, in the day of your fast ye find pleasure, and exact all your labours.
    Isa 58:4 Behold, ye fast for strife and debate, and to smite with the fist of wickedness: ye shall not fast as ye do this day, to make your voice to be heard on high.
    Isa 58:5 Is it such a fast that I have chosen? a day for a man to afflict his soul? is it to bow down his head as a bulrush, and to spread sackcloth and ashes under him? wilt thou call this a fast, and an acceptable day to the LORD?
    Isa 58:6 Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke?
    Isa 58:7 Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh?
    Isa 58:8 Then shall thy light break forth as the morning, and thine health shall spring forth speedily: and thy righteousness shall go before thee; the glory of the LORD shall be thy rereward.
    Isa 58:9 Then shalt thou call, and the LORD shall answer; thou shalt cry, and he shall say, Here I am. If thou take away from the midst of thee the yoke, the putting forth of the finger, and speaking vanity;
    Isa 58:10 And if thou draw out thy soul to the hungry, and satisfy the afflicted soul; then shall thy light rise in obscurity, and thy darkness be as the noonday:
    Isa 58:11 And the LORD shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought, and make fat thy bones: and thou shalt be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters fail not.
    Isa 58:12 And they that shall be of thee shall build the old waste places: thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations; and thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in.
     
  8. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    Jhn 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

    1Jo 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

    Once you come to know God, and that God sent his Son to save us by leading us to the Father,
    then turning back from knowing God, in my opinion, is a pretty darn hard thing to do.
    But there are people that do lose their faith. Doesn't mean they lose their "knowing" God.
    This is backsliding. And many having once tasted that the Lord is good, often come back through
    "repentance" not penance.
    You can't buy your way into heaven. You can't "do" anything other than ASK for forgiveness.

    If you believe you can, than you are relying on your own righteousness to save you.
    And there is none righteous, no not one. That is why we have faith that His righteousness covers us and seals us until the last day.

    Hugs
     
  9. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    Have you not heard about the mystery which now has been made manifest to His saints?

    "Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
    To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:" Col. 1:26-27
     
  10. reformed1689

    reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    No, I don't think I did.

    Yes, Scripture is limited to the Bible Alone.

    Which has nothing to do with the fact that the Greek (aka the original) does not say do penance. That is the point you keep avoiding.
     
  11. reformed1689

    reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    See, there are things you and I agree on! :)
     
    amadeus likes this.
  12. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    :):):)
     
  13. theefaith

    theefaith Well-Known Member

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    that’s true
    But he does say if you pray, fast, and give alms but when you do so
    So we must do penance
     
  14. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    Do you consider praying a penance?
     
  15. theefaith

    theefaith Well-Known Member

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    its very easy

    we have free will
    And a sin nature
    The just man sins seven times a day
    Grace sin causes a separation from God’s grace

    eternal life yes
    That’s God’s life (grace) in us by the sacraments
     
  16. theefaith

    theefaith Well-Known Member

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    yep eph 5:32
     
  17. theefaith

    theefaith Well-Known Member

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    you can’t produce the original so it’s moot
    Same with saying Mk 16:16 is not in the original

    sorry I meant to ask is the word of God limited to scripture?
     
  18. theefaith

    theefaith Well-Known Member

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    yes in general terms penance is prayer, fasting, and alms deeds
    Self denial carrying our cross
     
  19. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    we have free will... check
    and a sin nature... define sin
    The just man sins seven times a day... not 6 not 8, but 7? Show me.
    Sin causes a seperation from God's grace...
    Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; )

    Sacrament
    A sacrament is a Christian rite recognized as of particular importance and significance. There are various views on the existence and meaning of such rites. Many Christians consider the sacraments to be a visible symbol of the reality of God, as well as a channel for God's grace.

    Definition of rite

    1a: a prescribed form or manner governing the words or actions for a ceremony
    b: the ceremonial practices of a church or group of churches
    2: a ceremonial act or actioninitiation rites

    Num 9:2 Let the children of Israel also keep the passover at his appointed season.
    Num 9:3 In the fourteenth day of this month, at even, ye shall keep it in his appointed season: according to all the rites of it, and according to all the ceremonies thereof, shall ye keep it.

    Do you keep Israel's passover?
     
  20. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    ok.
    Can you define these penances in your own words.
    What is prayer? What is fasting? What are alms? What is self denial? And what does carrying the cross mean to you.
    In your own words. I just would like to know how you understand them and perform them.
    Thank you
    Hugs
     
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