“They have left the path of truth, preaching the lie that the resurrection of the dead has already occurred; and they have undermined the faith of some.”
(2 Timothy 2:18, NLT)
The ditch on the other side of the road.
What did Christ mean saying, God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
- Thread starter Hobie
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“They have left the path of truth, preaching the lie that the resurrection of the dead has already occurred; and they have undermined the faith of some.”
(2 Timothy 2:18, NLT)
The ditch on the other side of the road.
Gabriel _Arch
Well-Known Member
That ditch is layered by that which denies the divinity of Immanuel, the Christ.
Denying any lpart of Immanuel's teaching makes defending any other part of it impossible.
Denying any lpart of Immanuel's teaching makes defending any other part of it impossible.
We have a lot of things which keep us in the bondage of Satan, and makes it hard to break the chains holding us...
Don’t forget the last part, “….for they are all living to Him.”
It doesn’t say, “…to everyone“, does it? Why not?
Psalm 115:17 (CEB)…
“The dead don't praise the LORD…”
Ecclesiastes 9:5…
“…because the living know that they will die. But the dead know nothing at all.”
The dead are dead….until the resurrection, which Jesus said is a future event (John 6:44); that’s the only difference between animal death & human death (Ecclesiastes 3:19,20): humans have the prospect of coming back to life! — Acts 24:15.
So “they are all living to Him” in the sense that God is the only one with the power to resurrect them (no one else has it, except for Jesus who was given that power - Matthew 28:18); and He views them as good as living.
Remember, the subject Jesus was discussing was the Resurrection, not an afterlife.
It doesn’t say, “…to everyone“, does it? Why not?
Psalm 115:17 (CEB)…
“The dead don't praise the LORD…”
Ecclesiastes 9:5…
“…because the living know that they will die. But the dead know nothing at all.”
The dead are dead….until the resurrection, which Jesus said is a future event (John 6:44); that’s the only difference between animal death & human death (Ecclesiastes 3:19,20): humans have the prospect of coming back to life! — Acts 24:15.
So “they are all living to Him” in the sense that God is the only one with the power to resurrect them (no one else has it, except for Jesus who was given that power - Matthew 28:18); and He views them as good as living.
Remember, the subject Jesus was discussing was the Resurrection, not an afterlife.
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Oh just soul sleep again.
Isaiah 14:3-11
New International Version
3 On the day the Lord gives you relief from your suffering and turmoil and from the harsh labor forced on you, 4 you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon:How the oppressor has come to an end!
How his fury[a] has ended!
5 The Lord has broken the rod of the wicked,
the scepter of the rulers,
6 which in anger struck down peoples
with unceasing blows,
and in fury subdued nations
with relentless aggression.
7 All the lands are at rest and at peace;
they break into singing.
8 Even the junipers and the cedars of Lebanon
gloat over you and say,
“Now that you have been laid low,
no one comes to cut us down.”
9 The realm of the dead below is all astir
to meet you at your coming;
it rouses the spirits of the departed to greet you—
all those who were leaders in the world;
it makes them rise from their thrones—
all those who were kings over the nations.
10 They will all respond,
they will say to you,
“You also have become weak, as we are;
you have become like us.”
11 All your pomp has been brought down to the grave,
along with the noise of your harps;
maggots are spread out beneath you
and worms cover you.
Read full chapter
As you know Revelation is progressive. We learn more about the truth of any topic by studying from beginning to end.
"neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. " from your text, we learn that they do not have any more part "under the sun" or on earth.
But, latter in Isaiah
saiah 14:9-11 Christian Standard Bible (CSB)
9 Sheol below is eager to greet your coming,
stirring up the spirits of the departed for you—
all the rulers[a] of the earth—
making all the kings of the nations
rise from their thrones.
10 They all respond to you, saying,
“You too have become as weak as we are;
you have become like us!
11 Your splendor has been brought down to Sheol,
along with the music of your harps.
Maggots are spread out under you,
and worms cover you.”
Later in Hebrews 12, we learn, from the context we know it those who have died from Hebrews 11.
12 Such a large crowd of witnesses is all around us! So we must get rid of everything that slows us down, especially the sin that just won’t let go. And we must be determined to run the race that is ahead of us. 2 We must keep our eyes on Jesus, who leads us and makes our faith complete. He endured the shame of being nailed to a cross, because he knew that later on he would be glad he did. Now he is seated at the right side[f] of God’s throne! 3 So keep your mind on Jesus, who put up with many insults from sinners. Then you won’t get discouraged and give up.
And, later in Rev, we learn:
Revelation 6:9-11 Contemporary English Version (CEV)
9 When the Lamb opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of everyone who had been killed for speaking God’s message and telling about their faith. 10 They shouted, “Master, you are holy and faithful! How long will it be before you judge and punish the people of this earth who killed us?”
11 Then each of those who had been killed was given a white robe and told to rest for a little while. They had to wait until the complete number of the Lord’s other servants and followers would be killed.
Cleary in Rev 6 they have memory.
My friend, all your proof text really says is, that they are no longer among the people on earth.
We learn from below that, those under the earth are aware and living.
Revelation 5:13 Christian Standard Bible (CSB)
13 I heard every creature in heaven, on earth, under the earth, on the sea, and everything in them say,
Blessing and honor and glory and power
be to the one seated on the throne,
and to the Lamb, forever and ever!
Philippians 2 Christian Standard Bible (CSB)
Christian Humility
2 If then there is any encouragement in Christ, if any consolation of love, if any fellowship with the Spirit, if any affection and mercy, 2 make my joy complete by thinking the same way, having the same love, united in spirit, intent on one purpose. 3 Do nothing out of selfish ambition or conceit, but in humility consider others as more important than yourselves. 4 Everyone should look out not only for his own interests, but also for the interests of others.
Christ’s Humility and Exaltation
5 Adopt the same attitude as that of Christ Jesus,
6 who, existing in the form of God,
did not consider equality with God
as something to be exploited.[a]
7 Instead he emptied himself
by assuming the form of a servant,
taking on the likeness of humanity.
And when he had come as a man,
8 he humbled himself by becoming obedient
to the point of death—
even to death on a cross.
9 For this reason God highly exalted him
and gave him the name
that is above every name,
10 so that at the name of Jesus
every knee will bow—
in heaven and on earth
and under the earth—
11 and every tongue will confess
that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
Lights in the World
12 Therefore, my dear friends, just as you have always obeyed, so now, not only in my presence but even more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13 For it is God who is working in you both to will and to work according to his good purpose. 14 Do everything without grumbling and arguing, 15 so that you may be blameless and pure, children of God who are faultless in a crooked and perverted generation, among whom you shine like stars in the world, 16 by holding firm to the word of life. Then I can boast in the day of Christ that I didn’t run or labor for nothing. 17 But even if I am poured out as a drink offering on the sacrificial service of your faith, I am glad and rejoice with all of you. 18 In the same way you should also be glad and rejoice with me.
When a person is asleep they still have life.
Using your standards (exaggeration on my part coming up), then if one were to kill someone in their sleep than they can not be charged with a crime.
"neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. " from your text, we learn that they do not have any more part "under the sun" or on earth.
But, latter in Isaiah
saiah 14:9-11 Christian Standard Bible (CSB)
9 Sheol below is eager to greet your coming,
stirring up the spirits of the departed for you—
all the rulers[a] of the earth—
making all the kings of the nations
rise from their thrones.
10 They all respond to you, saying,
“You too have become as weak as we are;
you have become like us!
11 Your splendor has been brought down to Sheol,
along with the music of your harps.
Maggots are spread out under you,
and worms cover you.”
Later in Hebrews 12, we learn, from the context we know it those who have died from Hebrews 11.
12 Such a large crowd of witnesses is all around us! So we must get rid of everything that slows us down, especially the sin that just won’t let go. And we must be determined to run the race that is ahead of us. 2 We must keep our eyes on Jesus, who leads us and makes our faith complete. He endured the shame of being nailed to a cross, because he knew that later on he would be glad he did. Now he is seated at the right side[f] of God’s throne! 3 So keep your mind on Jesus, who put up with many insults from sinners. Then you won’t get discouraged and give up.
And, later in Rev, we learn:
Revelation 6:9-11 Contemporary English Version (CEV)
9 When the Lamb opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of everyone who had been killed for speaking God’s message and telling about their faith. 10 They shouted, “Master, you are holy and faithful! How long will it be before you judge and punish the people of this earth who killed us?”
11 Then each of those who had been killed was given a white robe and told to rest for a little while. They had to wait until the complete number of the Lord’s other servants and followers would be killed.
Cleary in Rev 6 they have memory.
My friend, all your proof text really says is, that they are no longer among the people on earth.
We learn from below that, those under the earth are aware and living.
Revelation 5:13 Christian Standard Bible (CSB)
13 I heard every creature in heaven, on earth, under the earth, on the sea, and everything in them say,
Blessing and honor and glory and power
be to the one seated on the throne,
and to the Lamb, forever and ever!
Philippians 2 Christian Standard Bible (CSB)
Christian Humility
2 If then there is any encouragement in Christ, if any consolation of love, if any fellowship with the Spirit, if any affection and mercy, 2 make my joy complete by thinking the same way, having the same love, united in spirit, intent on one purpose. 3 Do nothing out of selfish ambition or conceit, but in humility consider others as more important than yourselves. 4 Everyone should look out not only for his own interests, but also for the interests of others.
Christ’s Humility and Exaltation
5 Adopt the same attitude as that of Christ Jesus,
6 who, existing in the form of God,
did not consider equality with God
as something to be exploited.[a]
7 Instead he emptied himself
by assuming the form of a servant,
taking on the likeness of humanity.
And when he had come as a man,
8 he humbled himself by becoming obedient
to the point of death—
even to death on a cross.
9 For this reason God highly exalted him
and gave him the name
that is above every name,
10 so that at the name of Jesus
every knee will bow—
in heaven and on earth
and under the earth—
11 and every tongue will confess
that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
Lights in the World
12 Therefore, my dear friends, just as you have always obeyed, so now, not only in my presence but even more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13 For it is God who is working in you both to will and to work according to his good purpose. 14 Do everything without grumbling and arguing, 15 so that you may be blameless and pure, children of God who are faultless in a crooked and perverted generation, among whom you shine like stars in the world, 16 by holding firm to the word of life. Then I can boast in the day of Christ that I didn’t run or labor for nothing. 17 But even if I am poured out as a drink offering on the sacrificial service of your faith, I am glad and rejoice with all of you. 18 In the same way you should also be glad and rejoice with me.
When a person is asleep they still have life.
Using your standards (exaggeration on my part coming up), then if one were to kill someone in their sleep than they can not be charged with a crime.
You think that’s what that means, just ‘on earth’? It does mean on earth, but the earth in its present imperfect condition, without Jehovah God’s blessing or protection. Indeed, this entire world is currently under Satan’s control & power. — 1 John 5:19
Every time Solomon uses the phrase “under the Sun”, it’s always describing an imperfect human system, one with futility as the outcome.
See for yourself….
Ecclesiastes 1:3
Ecclesiastes 1:6
Ecclesiastes 1:14
Ecclesiastes 2:11
Ecclesiastes 2:17
Ecclesiastes 2:18
Ecclesiastes 2:19
Ecclesiastes 2:20
Ecclesiastes 2:21
Ecclesiastes 2:22
Ecclesiastes 3:16
Ecclesiastes 4:1
Ecclesiastes 4:3
Ecclesiastes 4:7
Ecclesiastes 4:15
Ecclesiastes 5:13
Ecclesiastes 5:18
Ecclesiastes 6:1
Ecclesiastes 6:12
Ecclesiastes 8:9
Ecclesiastes 8:15
Ecclesiastes 8:17
Ecclesiastes 9:3
Ecclesiastes 9:9
Ecclesiastes 9:11
Ecclesiastes 9:13
Ecclesiastes 10:5
Ecclesiastes 9:6…
(When you read them, did you see a pattern? ‘Futility’ & ’distress’ is prevalent.)
That last Scripture is the one you quoted. The dead will not be resurrected in this futile system.
When they are resurrected, it will be when Jesus rules this earth as God’s appointed King. They will open their eyes in peaceful conditions. No futility, no distress. As Revelation 7:16,17 says, “They will hunger no more nor thirst anymore, neither will the sun beat down on them nor any scorching heat, 17 because the Lamb, who is in the midst of the throne, will shepherd them and will guide them to springs of waters of life. And God will wipe out every tear from their eyes.”
Revelation 21:3,4…With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”
A fulfillment to the Lord’s Prayer: “Thy Kingdom come, Thy Will be done on earth…”
The resurrected ones will be part of “the meek” who will “inherit the earth.” - Matthew 5:5; Ps.37:11
Goodnight my cousin.
Matthew 28:18
So he came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth is given to me.
Its not just undermined...
2 Timothy 2:18
Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
Yes, indeed...
| Mt 8:21 | And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father. |
| Mt 8:22 | But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead. |
| Joh 10:10 | The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly. |
| Ro 8:10 | And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. |
But notice when this life is given..
John 5:29
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
John 5:29
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
That all will be resurrected, however not everyone is alive unto Yahava. Therefore some are dead to Yahava who is Spirit, and they decide by their own choice to actively go against the existence within their own understanding of what does it mean to be here on this earth anyway, perhaps. Yahava wouldn't be God to a person who is an unbeliever, who actively in their heart decide to go against Yahava themselves. Yahava is the God of the living, those whom are born again spiritually and resides within seeking Yahava, the Father of Yeshua, whom was the Word, in faith and trusting in him to pull you through until the time of the resting of the eyes for an eternal realm experience where Yahava is, who is a good, caring, loving, right, and just too. All people will be resurrected, be it the resurrection of life, or the resurrection of the damned. Yahava is a good God because he allows people who choose to love the darkness, the choice to freely love the darkness over the light.
You will be in the first resurrection at the Second Coming of the saints who have overcome.... or you will be in the second resurrection of the wicked who continued in sin and iniquity and we see were that one leads to...
Revelation 2:11
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Lambano
Well-Known Member
I think ...
The point under contention is the resurrection of the dead. Jesus's argument hinges on the I AM identifying Himself to Moses as "The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob" (Exodus 3:6). Jesus's point being that if Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were irrevocably dead, God would not identify Himself that way. Only the living have a god. The dead are dead and can have no god.
Frankly, I don't think Jesus's argument would pass the test of logical rigorousness (but I ain't gonna be the one to tell Him that). The Exodus 3:6 verse does not have the verb "hayah" (to be) which could be checked for tense. I do note that Luke adds, "For to Him, all live".
Oh well. This is not the first time Jesus has left me confused, and I don't think it will be the last.
The point under contention is the resurrection of the dead. Jesus's argument hinges on the I AM identifying Himself to Moses as "The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob" (Exodus 3:6). Jesus's point being that if Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were irrevocably dead, God would not identify Himself that way. Only the living have a god. The dead are dead and can have no god.
Frankly, I don't think Jesus's argument would pass the test of logical rigorousness (but I ain't gonna be the one to tell Him that). The Exodus 3:6 verse does not have the verb "hayah" (to be) which could be checked for tense. I do note that Luke adds, "For to Him, all live".
Oh well. This is not the first time Jesus has left me confused, and I don't think it will be the last.
I believe Stephen at his stoning and from then forward were those of the first resurrection. Those of that age, who lived and died for the Lord Jesus Christ, who rose again and had ascended up, until judgement had been cast forth upon the nation of Israel, and judgement of divorcement was laid upon then, in marriage of the bride who continued to stand against evil of those who desired to be over other people and dictate them in their lives in that day which the Highly Religious crowd, saw themselves better than others.
Ever since the return of the Lord Jesus and the gathering of the bride and overcoming death, the new heavens and new earth - now which covers all of the world, and not just the nation of Israel due to that divorcement and laid judgement having the 12 tribes, some being of 144,000 saved, and were virgins, having all the rest of the tribes put to death, by and through the use of the Roman governing forces, and devoured the nation in gulfs and waves of flames, not mention the plauges which befell them by and through Yahava decision to lay it upon them, for their crime, even then they did not turn to him.
My understanding and what I tend to go with generally is that, everyone is going to be resurrected. Some of the resurrection of life. Some of the resurrection of damnation, just like Jesus stated. The writer of Revelation reveals a message revealed to the Lord Jesus Christ, which has amazing insights on the heavenly kingdom, which is now established today, upon peoples hearts, who travel this world, choosing to believe by faith, Yahava, the Lord God Almighty, who spoke His Word, and his Word did create all things, became from a heavenly standing to a earthly standing, and willingly died and the Lord Jesus Christ, for all people.
When it comes to second death, I see it means a death to oneself. Some people point out those scriptures you shared on a firm stance of a view that is commonly held by some as souls ceasing to exist, never heard of a scripture that says that. The second death to me in the after life is perhaps going through the Lake of Fire, which is Yahava causing great waves of flaming warmth, that some people deny, and perhaps one day they will deny themselves, and be able to know the Lord Yeshua, and what is left of them can be saved and they brought into the Kingdom, which those on the outside, are those who have a part in the lake of fire. Maybe in the afterlife if possible Yahava, will let us go help the lost out there in the outside of the Kingdom in order to be able to stay active even in spirit while being with Yahava in the spirit realm which he is Spirt.
I believe if Jesus overcame death. He overcame second death. If he also holds the keys to hades and to death, who is to say he is not able to free those who are ensnared by the entrappment by allowing them to live, and be resurrected with a body that is given, which God only gives good things right? Even a condemned spiritual body? Who knows, but Yahava is good.
Thank you for responding, Hobie.
"I am the God of Abraham", He said, after Abraham had died. Present tense. Not future tense, I will be the God of Abraham when he is once again alive.
I am the God of Abraham. Since He is the God of the living, Abraham was indeed living.
Much love!
Yes, the whole question was on the resurrection as the Sadducees didnt believe in it so were trying to basically force Jesus to admit that the first five books of the Old Testament or Torah didnt support it. The 'Levirate obligation' they brought up was that if a woman had no son and became a widow, the brother of her deceased husband should take her as wife, and expanded it to a hypothetical, in which one woman had seven husbands consecutively, all of whom were brothers. They thought Jesus could not answer with anything in the Torah, and yet He answered with the words He had spoke when Moses was at the burning bush, ‘I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'.
And you see in the text in Matthew 22, the issue at stake was the resurrection of the dead. While the Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they did not believe in an immortal soul either. So the question of the immortality of the soul was clearly not the issue or what Christ was speaking on, it was the resurrection.
Matthew 22:23-34
23 The same day came to him the Sadducees, which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him,
24 Saying, Master, Moses said, If a man die, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.
25 Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother:
26 Likewise the second also, and the third, unto the seventh.
27 And last of all the woman died also.
28 Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her.
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
33 And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine.
34 But when the Pharisees had heard that he had put the Sadducees to silence, they were gathered together.
And here Jesus makes it clear what life He is talking about..
John 11:25
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
And when we receive it..
John 5:29
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
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