What Do The Book of Daniel DECEIVERS Present?!?

[Jay Ross]

I didn't say the BLB didn't have limitations. I could prove the same thing with a Strong's Exhaustive Concordance with OT/NT Lexicons.

What matters is the fact that whenever the passage is dealing specifically with the 2,300 Days portion of the prophecy, the English word "vision" is from "mareh", not "chazown".

Armed with this knowledge, as well as:

• Daniel could not have questions about the other elements of the chapter 8 prophecy because Gabriel fully explained them
• The only confusion Daniel was left with at the end of the chapter was about the 2,300 Days
• Gabriel says specifically that he came to explain the "mareh" - the word in chapter 8 which pertains to the 2,300 Days
• Gabriel says the 70 Weeks are "cut off" from...what?....the only other time prophecy mentioned regarding the entire issue: the 2,300 Days

It saddens me that such important pieces of the puzzle are discarded in order to make a picture emerge which is not depicted on the cover. Antiochus the Chump was not "exceeding" greater than Alex the Great or any before him, he did not reign "at the latter time of the reign of these kings", he is not the the "Little Horn that came out of one of the four horns" because Hebrew noun/pronoun gender agreement demands the pronoun "them" refers to "winds" not "horns" as well as the pronoun antecedent points to "winds", he was not "broken without hand" which means "by the power of God" - he died from sickness.

So be it my friend. Have it your way. How could I argue with such a person as yourself who believes he has all of the answers.

Shalom

 

[CharismaticLady]

Good night all.

 

[Jay Ross]

The Sacrifice...in the sanctuary. God is trying to draw our attention to the sanctuary for understanding of the prophecy. Whether "evenings and mornings", or "day", the meaning of the words are identical: 24 hour periods...and in symbolic time prophecy, 24 hour periods are symbols for 360 day time periods.

I agree that the calculations are based on 360 day years.

Sadly, the Daniel_9:24 prophecy is not based on a 360 day year but is framed around 490 solar years and the corrections of such by the Priests to determine when the new year starts by the observation of the state of the bailey for harvest and the sighting of the new moon. Every couple of years a thirteenth month was added to the yearly calendar to bring the Jewish calendar into line with the actual solar years. The 490 years is a reference to the yearly sin sacrifice that occurs to redeem the people on a yearly basis of their sins against God. After that period of time, the process for the redemption of the people for their sins against God was going to change. Sadly this flawed understanding of the length of the years of 360 days, often referred to as a Prophetic year, was adopted by many of the Chronologist of the Old Testament and if we follow their rules, then we can come to the same understanding as they had. However they did ignore the corrections of the yearly calendar and as such they fudged/calculated their chronological timeline years accordingly.

Time will tell.

Shalom

 

[Phoneman777]

Yeah, I've actually questioned one of the definitions. But what I actually think happened is the Latin translations were translated back to Greek, but used the wrong Greek word.

CL, the SDA church was preaching the soon return of Jesus for DECADES before everyone else finally gave up their grand designs of a "post 1,000 years of peace Second Coming" and joined us. During WWII, the Christian world was all but certain Jesus was about to come with "Hitler the Antichrist" running roughshod all over the place...but "Signs of the Times" was busy confidently publishing an expose' on Daniel 2 and assuring the world that Hitler was not going to succeed...even in the midst of the worst of it. In Testimonies to the Church, Vol 9, pp. 11, which was written around the turn of the 20th century, you can read an account of a description of an event that would take place in futuristic New York City that at that time seemed almost unimaginable, seeing that buildings were scarcely a few stories tall but were said to "rise higher and higher" ...and "were built of the most costly material" used to the glory of the men associated with their construction... and suddenly there were on fire and "seemed to burn as if made of pitch"... and the authorities "assured us that they were perfectly safe" but "the fire engines were helpless" to stop them. Coincidence? Perhaps. But, such a detailed account almost 100 years before the fact seems almost impossible. food for thought

 

[Jay Ross]

But in this case it wasn't just the word "day;" there were specifics (evenings and mornings) making it literally 24 hour days as in Genesis 1.

But is your understanding of the creation account and the first, second, etc. days right? My understanding is that the days were simply periods of time when each of the described ongoing events occurred. How long the periods of time was really become irrelevant and as such the argument that you are presenting is a false argument that is commonly used to force a particular understanding.

Shalom

 

[Phoneman777]

So be it my friend. Have it your way. How could I argue with such a person as yourself who believes he has all of the answers.

Shalom

I don't, I just believe that "no prophecy of the Scripture is of a private interpretation", and ESPECIALLY "of a papal interpretation". Anyone who's waiting for a "Left Behind" Antichrist scenario is just plain drinking the Jesuit Koolaid compliments of Jesuit priest Francisco Ribera, who invented the "future Antichrist dude" when the great Protestant Reformers were exposing the papacy as the Antichrist of prophecy - which included the Little Horn of Daniel 8.


The Reformers were willing to die for their beliefs and many of them did...but they were all barking up the wrong tree, right, according to "enlightened" Christians today who are too busy enraptured with porn, demonic movies and music, video games, etc., to spend any time in study and prayer, but somehow deem themselves better equipped to explain the Bible...not saying you're guilty of any of that, but that's the reality in which we live.

 

[Jay Ross]

I don't, I just believe that "no prophecy of the Scripture is of a private interpretation", and ESPECIALLY "of a papal interpretation". Anyone who's waiting for a "Left Behind" Antichrist scenario is just plain drinking the Jesuit Koolaid compliments of Jesuit priest Francisco Ribera, who invented the "future Antichrist dude" when the great Protestant Reformers were exposing the papacy as the Antichrist of prophecy - which included the Little Horn of Daniel 8.


The Reformers were willing to die for their beliefs and many of them did...but they were all barking up the wrong tree, right, according to "enlightened" Christians today who are too busy enraptured with porn, demonic movies and music, video games, etc., to spend any time in study and prayer, but somehow deem themselves better equipped to explain the Bible...not saying you're guilty of any of that, but that's the reality in which we live.

So do you include yourself with the likes of Bobby Jo? He claims the same as you, that he too has understanding of the End Time Prophecies.

Shalom

 

[CharismaticLady]

Sadly, the Daniel_9:24 prophecy is not based on a 360 day year but is framed around 490 solar years and the corrections of such by the Priests to determine when the new year starts by the observation of the state of the bailey for harvest and the sighting of the new moon. Every couple of years a thirteenth month was added to the yearly calendar to bring the Jewish calendar into line with the actual solar years. The 490 years is a reference to the yearly sin sacrifice that occurs to redeem the people on a yearly basis of their sins against God. After that period of time, the process for the redemption of the people for their sins against God was going to change. Sadly this flawed understanding of the length of the years of 360 days, often referred to as a Prophetic year, was adopted by many of the Chronologist of the Old Testament and if we follow their rules, then we can come to the same understanding as they had. However they did ignore the corrections of the yearly calendar and as such they fudged/calculated their chronological timeline years accordingly.

Time will tell.

Shalom

I was talking about us finding the end date of the fulfillment, not the Jews. I think you are right about the thirteenth month.

 

[CharismaticLady]

But is your understanding of the creation account and the first, second, etc. days right? My understanding is that the days were simply periods of time when each of the described ongoing events occurred. How long the periods of time was really become irrelevant and as such the argument that you are presenting is a false argument that is commonly used to force a particular understanding.

Shalom

It is only "false" to those raised with evolution. Everyone until Darwin believed they were 24 hour days. I don't play around with what God meant. God is not the author of confusion.

 

[Jay Ross]

It is only "false" to those raised with evolution. Everyone until Darwin believed they were 24 hour days. I don't play around with what God meant. God is not the author of confusion.

You are right. God is not the author of confusion. Man is. Man instead of being content as to the length of the time period of י֥וֹם , as being silent and therefore indeterminate, have tried to solve that mystery by saying that this word has the same duration as וּלְיָמִ֖ים which we know is the length of time of one rotation of the earth with respect to the sun being at the same elevation as the previous day and the day to come, i.e. that a sun dial passes the same mark once per day, thereby indicating the length of a day, is therefore clumsy on the part of the proponents of this particular theory for insisting that it is true.

Shalom

 

[CharismaticLady]

You are right. God is not the author of confusion. Man is. Man instead of being content as to the length of the time period of י֥וֹם , as being silent and therefore indeterminate, have tried to solve that mystery by saying that this word has the same duration as וּלְיָמִ֖ים which we know is the length of time of one rotation of the earth with respect to the sun being at the same elevation as the previous day and the day to come, i.e. that a sun dial passes the same mark once per day, thereby indicating the length of a day, is therefore clumsy on the part of the proponents of this particular theory for insisting that it is true.

Shalom

What kind of symbols are those. They don't look Greek or Hebrew, so what are they. How do you type with them. I suppose you would have to download that language, whatever it is, but then what.

 

[CharismaticLady]

CL, the SDA church was preaching the soon return of Jesus for DECADES before everyone else finally gave up their grand designs of a "post 1,000 years of peace Second Coming" and joined us. During WWII, the Christian world was all but certain Jesus was about to come with "Hitler the Antichrist" running roughshod all over the place...but "Signs of the Times" was busy confidently publishing an expose' on Daniel 2 and assuring the world that Hitler was not going to succeed...even in the midst of the worst of it. In Testimonies to the Church, Vol 9, pp. 11, which was written around the turn of the 20th century, you can read an account of a description of an event that would take place in futuristic New York City that at that time seemed almost unimaginable, seeing that buildings were scarcely a few stories tall but were said to "rise higher and higher" ...and "were built of the most costly material" used to the glory of the men associated with their construction... and suddenly there were on fire and "seemed to burn as if made of pitch"... and the authorities "assured us that they were perfectly safe" but "the fire engines were helpless" to stop them. Coincidence? Perhaps. But, such a detailed account almost 100 years before the fact seems almost impossible. food for thought

The one I like is when Mrs. White said that cancer was a virus. And decades later they found that to be true.

 

[CharismaticLady]

I don't, I just believe that "no prophecy of the Scripture is of a private interpretation", and ESPECIALLY "of a papal interpretation". Anyone who's waiting for a "Left Behind" Antichrist scenario is just plain drinking the Jesuit Koolaid compliments of Jesuit priest Francisco Ribera, who invented the "future Antichrist dude" when the great Protestant Reformers were exposing the papacy as the Antichrist of prophecy - which included the Little Horn of Daniel 8.


The Reformers were willing to die for their beliefs and many of them did...but they were all barking up the wrong tree, right, according to "enlightened" Christians today who are too busy enraptured with porn, demonic movies and music, video games, etc., to spend any time in study and prayer, but somehow deem themselves better equipped to explain the Bible...not saying you're guilty of any of that, but that's the reality in which we live.

Speaking of Daniel 8 and the 2300 day prophecy. If after the time for fulfillment has past without anything happening in Jerusalem, why wouldn't someone let go of the day is a year theory, and realize that the evenings and mornings was the key to the truth of it, and look at the shorter literal interpretation more closely because they would find that God is true to His word, and the prophecy was verifiably fulfilled, like it or not. The whole world knows what happened; Hanukkah happened. Personally, I would be humble enough to look at it again, because no prophecy of someone like Daniel or Jeremiah will prove to be false, only some of those interpreting them will fight to the death overridden with pride before they let go of an incorrect interpretation. What is sure, is when prophecies are fulfilled, everyone knows it.

So tell me as I've asked you at least 4-5 times, why you still hold that the 2300 days were 2300 years, and use the start date of another prophecy, for its start date. How do you know the 490 years was "cut out" of the first part of the 2300 year prophecy, and not out of the end, or even in the middle?

Back to bed I go...

 

[Jay Ross]

What kind of symbols are those. They don't look Greek or Hebrew, so what are they. How do you type with them. I suppose you would have to download that language, whatever it is, but then what.

Go to the BibleHub web site and pull up the Genesis1:4 & 14 verses in the interlinear and copy the Hebrew text for the H:3117 and paste it into the post. The font size has been increased and Bolded. You will see the differences in the actual Hebrew text for both occurrences. They are different Hebrew words with the same Hebrew Root word embedded into the respective Hebrew words in both cases. That is how I do it.

Genesis_1:5: - Day - הַיּ֖וֹם – Translated as a Day with respect to the period/length of each step of the creation story.

Genesis_1:14: - Day - וּלְיָמִ֖ים -Translated as a Day with respect to the rotation of the earth relative to the sun

 

[CharismaticLady]

Go to the BibleHub web site and pull up the Genesis1:4 & 14 verses in the interlinear and copy the Hebrew text for the H:3117 and paste it into the post. The font size has been increased and Bolded. You will see the differences in the actual Hebrew text for both occurrences. They are different Hebrew words with the same Hebrew Root word embedded into the respective Hebrew words in both cases. That is how I do it.

Genesis_1:5: - Day - הַיּ֖וֹם – Translated as a Day with respect to the period/length of each step of the creation story.

Genesis_1:14: - Day - וּלְיָמִ֖ים -Translated as a Day with respect to the rotation of the earth relative to the sun

Wow, I know what Hebrew looks like, but those look like someone took a shotgun to them.

 

[Jay Ross]

Wow, I know what Hebrew looks like, but those look like someone took a shotgun to them.

Yes I know that they do not look like the BibleHub Hebrew text, that when copied and pasted into this forum's posts, they seem to take on a very different appearance. However, when you look at the Hebrew Text, even when posted here, you can still see that there is a difference in the source text between the two "Days' in the English translation. If you rely on the Blue Letter Bible Web site, where they only give you the Root Words for the original source language, it looks like the same Hebrew word appears in each occurrence of the Hebrew Root being Embedded in the Hebrew Text Words. I had this issue with a prolific blogger a number of years ago who used the Blue Letter Bible Web site for his go to information and he would generate the Hebrew Texts from the Tools of that site and generate what he would claim was the actual original Hebrew Text which would look nothing like the Text you get when opening a Hebrew Text Bible. I also had this problem with a member on another forum, who claimed that I was wrong based on what he was seeing in the Blue Letter Bible Web site.

The Blue Letter Bible Web site does provide reliable information within the limitations of the way the web site has been set up. Using the web site outside of its limitations does leave you in a barbwire canoe without a paddle when discussing scriptural matters.

Shalom

 

[Jay Ross]

Speaking of Daniel 8 and the 2300 day prophecy. If after the time for fulfillment has past without anything happening in Jerusalem, why wouldn't someone let go of the day is a year theory, and realize that the evenings and mornings was the key to the truth of it, and look at the shorter literal interpretation more closely because they would find that God is true to His word, and the prophecy was verifiably fulfilled, like it or not. The whole world knows what happened; Hanukkah happened. Personally, I would be humble enough to look at it again, because no prophecy of someone like Daniel or Jeremiah will prove to be false, only some of those interpreting them will fight to the death overridden with pride before they let go of an incorrect interpretation. What is sure, is when prophecies are fulfilled, everyone knows it.

So tell me as I've asked you at least 4-5 times, why you still hold that the 2300 days were 2300 years, and use the start date of another prophecy, for its start date. How do you know the 490 years was "cut out" of the first part of the 2300 year prophecy, and not out of the end, or even in the middle?

Back to bed I go...

If we read the whole chapter 8 of Daniel, it begins with the Persians and the Israelites remained in exile up and until the Appearance of the Persian king, Cyrus, who decreed that the temples within his dominion should be rebuilt by the peoples of they respective territories where the temples were to be found. As such he released as many as wanted to of the Israelite exiles to return back to the Land of Canaan for the purpose of rebuilding the Temple in Jerusalem.

Then around 150 years later, we have the Greek Empire spreading across the earth, as far as India, establishing a new ruler in that portion of the earth, and within a few years the initial leader, Alexandra the Great, would die and be replaced by four new leaders, his generals, who would divide up the empire into four regions to rule over. It is now that we see the third beast of Daniel 7 come to life with the phrase, "towards the four winds of heaven" which is also found in Daniel_7:2 where the "four winds of heaven" is also mentioned. The four winds of heaven are the four heavenly beasts who stir up the sea of humanity such that the people in the sea manifest the characteristics of the respective four winds/beasts of heaven. The four "Greek empires" held dominion over the land for around 200 - 250 years. Within the Grecian empires, there was also a power struggle with the Roman Empire gaining dominance in the Land of Canaan around 63 BC.

Now the little horn's influence over the Grecian and the Roman Empires continued to grow and the Little Horn had the Grecian Empire enter Jerusalem to desecreate the Temple but the temple was cleansed and the daily sacrifices were restored relatively quickly.

Then the Little Horn went up against Christ, while he was still a baby, resulting in Joseph taking Mary and Jesus down to Egypt to escape this threat, and upon the death of Herod, they returned back to Nazareth to live. Then before He began His time of ministry, Jesus was tempted and at the end of His Ministry, the Little Horn influenced both the Priestly orders and the Roman rulers to kill Jesus on the cross.

A number of years later, because of the transgressions of the Israelites, an army was given to the Little Horn and he came against Jerusalem and the Israelites to destroy the temple and to scatter the israelites to the four cornerw of the earth. The Israelites tried a number of time to rebuild the Temple around 160? AD and 450? AD but each attempt failed.

The temple has laid in ruins since 70 AD with no altar upon which to offer up any sacrifices in accordance with the Mosaic Covenant. This time period has been for a period of around 1960 and the 2,300 years of the prophecy will not end for another 25 or so years hence. The trampling of the Temple and the sacrifices began around 70 years after the death of Alexandra the great around 260-250 BC.

The Book of the Maccabees is an accout of the Little Horns attempt to place a counterfied fulfilment of this prophecy on the record.

It is for these reason, that I do not see the fulfilment of this prophecy in the macabee's revolt. The trampling of the Sanctuary, has continued with the Little Horn right up and until the present time who as told in Daniel_7 has presently temaed up with the fourth "beast" of the Daniel_7 prophecy to put in place a very visible sign of the temple mound being trampled by the Islamic religion to this present time since around 690? AD.

Shalom

 

[CharismaticLady]

Little Horn had the Grecian Empire enter Jerusalem to desecreate the Temple but the temple was cleansed and the daily sacrifices were restored relatively quickly.

This time period has been for a period of around 1960 and the 2,300 years of the prophecy will not end for another 25 or so years hence.

Where you have passed over the Maccabeean revolt as no big deal, it was the first desecration of the temple altar, and WAS a big deal to God. Daniel 8 fulfillment is still under Greece, so I believe in the 6.3 year calculation of 2300 evenings and mornings - 24 hour period days as set forth in Genesis 1.

I love you, brother, and you are smart, but I am too, so we will just have to agree to disagree. I will never unsee the comprehensive words of clarification (evenings and mornings) that these are just literal days, inside a prophecy.

 

[Phoneman777]

So do you include yourself with the likes of Bobby Jo? He claims the same as you, that he too has understanding of the End Time Prophecies.

Shalom

Nah, I just like to consider myself in good company with the likes of:

John Wesley
Charles Wesley
Ulrich Zwingli
John Hus
William Tyndale
Charles Spurgeon
Miles Coverdale
Martin Luther
John Wycliffe
Hugh Latimer
Nicholas Ridley
Thomas Cramner
Ian Paisley
John Foxe
Alexander Hislop
King James, King of England
Philip Melancthon
John Calvin
John Knox
Matthius Flacius
Georg Nigrinus
Roger Williams
J. A. Wylie
The Waldenses
The Hugenots
The Lollards
The Albigenses
The Bogemills
The Baptist Confession of Faith
The Westminster Confession of Faith
Church fathers/founders of the many Protestant faiths
The translators of the KJV Bible.....

....and many, many, many, millions of faithful TRUE Protestants who are so-named because they PROTESTED the blasphemous doctrines of the papal Antichrist in Rome

 

[Phoneman777]

The one I like is when Mrs. White said that cancer was a virus. And decades later they found that to be true.

And described cholesterol and plague before science even had any inkling of it. Also, that smoking was a devious killer in a time when cigarettes were prescribed for lung ailments....the dangers of caffeine, tobacco, alcohol, eating unclean meat such as pork, shellfish, etc. Yes, what a blessing is the SDA health message