"The Son of God" is identical to "God the Son" or "God the Word". If God the Father is in the Bible, it follows that God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are also there.
What does anyone consider truths essential for followers of Jesus?
- Thread starter amadeus
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That is a false statement and also a misapplication of that verse.
What was Jesus saying here? That He had come to earth representing the Father in every respect. It is just like an ambassador representing a king. Except for Christ it went much further and much deeper. But it certainly did not mean that Jesus is the Father or the Father is Jesus, the Son of God. That would be absurd.
That's almost like saying Donald's Trump's sons are President.
I'm not sure what your point is. Do you or do you not believe that Jesus is God? If so He is God the Son (also called the Son of God or the Word of God).
But unto the Son [Jesus] He [God the Father] saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God [the Son], even thy God [the Father], hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. (Hebrews 1:8,9)
Are then saying that a belief in a Trinity is essential?
I know people find what they consider evidence of a Trinity in the scripture, but is it essential? To what?
If it were essential why would any sincere believer doubt it? I say this because I do not embrace the Trinity and I believe that I am a sincere believer. My walk with God has been extremely important to me for many years. But... I have not been a Trinitarian since I was an active Catholic over 50 years ago. I don't deny the Trinity because I do not know all the truth of God, but I cannot embrace it as truth. I simply love the truth in spite of my lack of complete knowledge about it. Essential? To what?
Indeed it is. Since the Risen Lord commanded all believers to be baptized in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost (Matthew 28:19), believing in the triune Godhead is an essential of the Christian's faith. And that verse in a genuine part of the Gospel of Matthew.
True faith in Christ means obedience to His commandments, and His first commandment to the new convert is to be baptized immediately as stated above. Indeed, in the Gospel of Mark (16:15,16) believing and baptism are synonymous (as in Acts 2:38), and throughout the book of Acts, that is what we see.
My point was how you were being illogical. Do you consider yourself a son of God? Would that mean we should call you God?
Why pick that one passage? How many other times are people told be baptized without that formula?
That passage also doesn't even use the word "God." Yet you add to it.
I also believe that that verse is a genuine part of the Gospel of Matthew, but that still won't put me in the Trinitarian camp. To you and undoubtedly to others the Trinity may be essential but I have not seen the 'why' of it. I go back to Matt 6:33.
Without getting into the details of water baptism versus any other baptism mentioned in scripture, I was baptized by one speaking the words of Matt 28:19 in the Catholic Church at the age of 6 years. I remember it clearly for it was I first recalled memory of God. I was also baptized by another one speaking the words of Acts 2:38 in the UPC at 32 years of age. God has brought me out of both of those places and I walk on with Him. Is it not essential for a believer to grow toward God while he still has time?
The two baptisms in water described by you are word formulas, but is a baptism not using those words valid if a person is baptized into Jesus. Is that not possible without anyone saying anything with their mouth?
Giuliano raised a great point.
The great commission given states...
"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:"
If I can use Amadeus for an example here, his wisdom and humility will allow this...
1. Amadeus is a father
2. Amadeus is a son
3. Amadeus is a husband
However, this does NOT make him a "Trinity"...
1. Father is not his name,
2. Son is not his name,
3. Husband is not his name.
And, that is why we will NOT see anyone baptized using the titles of Father, Son, Holy Ghost ... ALL were baptized in the NAME of Jesus.
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
Thanks again, Giuliano for your very valid and useful input.
And, thank you Amadeus for allowing me to use you as an example.
God bless to both of you!
The great commission given states...
"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:"
If I can use Amadeus for an example here, his wisdom and humility will allow this...
1. Amadeus is a father
2. Amadeus is a son
3. Amadeus is a husband
However, this does NOT make him a "Trinity"...
1. Father is not his name,
2. Son is not his name,
3. Husband is not his name.
And, that is why we will NOT see anyone baptized using the titles of Father, Son, Holy Ghost ... ALL were baptized in the NAME of Jesus.
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
Thanks again, Giuliano for your very valid and useful input.
And, thank you Amadeus for allowing me to use you as an example.
God bless to both of you!
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"...the way to agreement regarding disputed points of doctrine is the way of faith itself, grounded in essential truths about God and Christ. The hierarchy of truths also has application in the Church’s catechetical activity: "This hierarchy does not mean that some truths pertain to faith itself less than others, but rather that some truths are based on others as of a higher priority, and are illumined by them. On all levels catechesis should take account of this hierarchy of the truths of faith."
Read more here
Do you really suppose that for most people it would really make a difference? One more point of argument for some to argue perhaps... but to please God?
What do we suppose the priests under the law gave to Moses said with their mouths when they washed their physical bodies with water before entering through the veil? With all the detail shown in the OT, I don't believe a mandatory set of words were given to them to speak at the time.
I had a little trouble at first understanding your very Catholic language. You should do something about that when speaking to someone who is not with your church. Just a suggestion.
I believe however that I got the sense of your thought to be that there are different levels and/or parts within the totality of truth. I do agree with this. This is where growth comes into the picture. We all start as babies, but as we grow physically so should be maturing mentally, emotionally, etc.
This is like onto the spiritual growth of every person who has met the Master and how he should be striving to follow Him more closely. As he grows in God he will learn and gradually move from the milk to the meat of God's Word. One who does this consistently to the end of his journey here will meet the Lord face to face. One who procrastinates too much or simply falls back on his laziness or follows the ways of his flesh rather than God's Way will stagnate and die spiritually.
The essential thing I see is the unending growth while there is time.
RR144
Well-Known Member
There's always the "golden rule". That's always a good start!
I find it somewhat amusing that most who have posted in response to your question would argue stridently in favour of unconditional salvation. And yet in here are debating over what conditions are essential and what aren't.Me, I believe there are decided conditions to salvation.
- We must be born again... Become new creatures, dying to self and completely surrendering ourselves to Christ.
- Obey Christ in all things. Doing whatsover He commands us.
- Share the gospel with everyone.
I wonder if anyone would assert he baptized people using the Trinity formula. If so, would Peter's baptism been deficient?
I think intention is key.
Just so! What you say expresses why real discussion on some of these issues is not possible. There are essentials involved, but if we name them, will yours agree with mine, and mine with his, and etc. Hopefully some people will gain something beneficial from the details given, or Not, given on this thread.
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