What does being born again mean?

[Bible Highlighter]

Hello @Bible Highlighter,

My first question to you is do you believe that water baptism is not actual baptism?

There are different types of baptism mentioned in the Bible. Not all of them refer to water (although many attempt to see water baptism in verses where no water is mentioned and it does not read correctly with water baptism being enforced upon the text in every case).

Acts 2:38 and Acts 10 refer to water baptism, but I believe Peter was acting on only what he knew from before, and he was not truly listening or meditating on what Jesus desired of Him on this matter (Although Peter spoke the correct words by the Spirit). The apostle Paul understood the proper teaching on baptism for the New Covenant. Paul said he came not to baptize but to preach the gospel in 1 Corinthians 1:17. This means that if baptism was for salvation, then Paul would be saying, I come not to save you (via by baptism), but to preach the gospel. Such a saying would not make any sense and it simply shows the temporal nature of water baptism.

I ask this because of your statement where you said that Holy Spirit baptism is the only real baptism.

This would be the only real baptism for today.
Back at Pentecost, the Jew was to be water baptized because they were being told what to do based on Peter’s limited or imperfect understanding.

Secondly, have you considered baptism in Jesus' Name; not as a work; but as a point of contact for faith?

While I believe faith is like a two sided coin (with one side being a belief, and one side being faith that works through love), I don’t believe baptism is not a work because it actually takes work to accomplish this task (Especially today). Most churches today are apostate and teach a sin and still be saved type belief. So while I have been water baptized back in April of 2013, I was saved long before that point in time with God talking to me by His Word for many years since 1992. Water baptism did not really change anything for me. But back in 1992, when I accepted Jesus as my Savior and I believed that He died for my sins, and He was buried, and risen the third day, it was like a light had went on inside of me, and I had a love, joy, and peace that I had never known before. I was changed. I used to be an atheist/agnostic before this point. Water baptism as not something that was even on my radar until like many years later. When I first got saved in 1992, I was preaching to my family and friends with a passion, and fire. I had a peace in Jesus, and I wanted everyone else to feel this way, as well. I handed out comic tracts, and lived to make Jesus the Lord of my life (throwing away my worldly things).

(such as when they took handkerchiefs and aprons from Paul and demons came out of people and others were healed simply by youching the cloths).

God doing miracles by faith through believers may not always be us acting out in faith. Sometimes it can be, though. There are miracles whereby believers just pray and God heals (bring in a miracle). But an act of faith or faith in action with miracles following would be a work of faith. Paul talks about the work of faith in 1 Thessalonians 1:3, and 2 Thessalonians 1:11. I believe that is exactly what that is. A work. Baptism is a work of faith. While Circumcision Salvationism (Acts of the Apostles 15:1, and Galatians 5:2) was the primary reason why Paul spoke in the way that he did in many of his letters on saying how we are saved by God’s grace without works in our Initial Salvation, I don’t see Paul referring exclusively to only the Mosaic Law in Romans 4:2 because Paul’s point was that Abraham BELIEVED God and it was accounted to him as righteousness BEFORE he was circumcised (Which was a work or work of faith at that point in time). Please compare Romans 4:2 with Romans 4:9-12.

I consider that Acts of the Apostles 2:38 presents to us a conditional promise and that if we fulfill the condition of the promise, we can most assuredly obtain the promise.

re #56 (I have not yet read your post #57).

I don’t believe that. Everything in my life involving God’s Word and my study of it shows otherwise. For what do you make of 1 Corinthians 1:17?

 

[heartwashed]

For what do you make of 1 Corinthians 1:17?

See post #60 (What does being born again mean?).

 

[heartwashed]

@Bible Highlighter,

Even in Acts of the Apostles 10, Cornelius and friends received the Holy Spirit before being baptized and receiving the remission of sins (Acts of the Apostles 2:38-39, remission of sins is promised as the result of being baptized in Jesus' Name).

Also, it can be said that Paul was saved on the road to Damascus when Jesus knocked him off his "high horse"...

And yet, Ananias told him that in arising and being baptized, he would wash away his sins in calling on the name of the Lord (Acts of the Apostles 22:16).

Therefore, remission of sins through baptism in Jesus' Name can and does come after a person may receive the Holy Spirit.

I would also say by this that while water baptism doesn't remove the filth of the flesh (1 Peter 3:20-21), it does wash away sins.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

1 Corinthians 1:17 is qualified by Acts of the Apostles 18:8.

God did not send Paul to baptize; and therefore he only baptized three people in Corinth (1 Corinthians 1:14-16).

Paul was not called to baptize but to preach the gospel.

So, he adopted Jesus' strategy of having his disciples do the baptizing (John 4:1-2).

For it should be clear (Acts of the Apostles 18:8) that many more in Corinth were baptized, other than Crispus and Gauis and Stephanas.

No, friend.

First, nowhere does Paul mention how others baptized for him while he preached the gospel.

Second, Paul says I thank God that I did not baptize any of the Corinthians except two of them (1 Corinthians 1:14). So if baptism was as important as you say, in that it is salvific, Paul would have naturally baptized a lot more than just two people, and one household.

Three, why would Paul say that he thanked God that he did not baptize the majority of the Corinthians?
If it was salvific he would never say that kind of thing.

Four, in Acts 18, and Acts 19, it also gives us some good evidence that Spirit baptism is what has replaced water baptism, as well. For…

Acts of the Apostles 18:24-26 says, And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus. This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John. And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.”​

In short, Aquila and Priscilla (who were taught by Paul) expounded the Word of God more perfectly unto Apollos because he only knew of John’s baptism of water. Apollos needed to learn of Spirit baptism (Which is the true New Covenant way of being baptized).

Acts of the Apostles 19:1-7 says, “And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. And all the men were about twelve.”​

In other words, the believers at Ephesus only knew of John’s baptism of water, and they were not aware of the Holy Ghost. So Paul baptized them into the Holy Ghost by laying his hands on them. So they received the baptism of the Spirit.

Five, Hebrews 9:10 says, “Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.” The word “washings” is the Greek word “baptismos” (βαπτισμός) (Check out here for the Strong’s definition). In other words, Hebrews 9:10 is saying that diverse baptisms (washings) were imposed on believers until the time of reformation. Meaning, water baptism will give way or pass away until the time of reformation (Which means that Spirit baptism is now the one and only true baptism for today).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Furthermore, Paul mentions this gospel that saves us in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 and water baptism is not a part of this gospel that the believers have received and stand upon. The gospel is believing that Christ died for our sins, He was buried, and risen the third day. That’s the gospel or good news. It’s the gospel that saves (2 Corinthians 4:4).

 

[heartwashed]

First of all, according to 1 Peter 3:20-21, water baptism is not the putting away of the filth of the flesh (washing).

Secondly, in Acts 19:1-7, it should be clear that they are first baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus (Acts 2:38 salvation) and then Paul laid hands on them so that they received the Holy Ghost.

Thirdly, many of the Corinthians were in fact baptized when Paul preached to them. It was just not Paul who did the baptizing.

 

[heartwashed]

Furthermore, Paul mentions this gospel that saves us in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 and water baptism is not a part of this gospel that the believers have received and stand upon. The gospel is believing that Christ died for our sins, He was buried, and risen the third day. That’s the gospel or good news. It’s the gospel that saves (2 Corinthians 4:4).

baptism itself is an identification with Christ in His death, burlal, and resurrection, is it not?

So, being baptized into Christ would be in perfect conjunction with receiving the gospel that is spoken of in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.

Also, have you considered Colossians 2:11-12?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

@Bible Highlighter,

Even in Acts of the Apostles 10, Cornelius and friends received the Holy Spirit before being baptized and receiving the remission of sins (Acts of the Apostles 2:38-39, remission of sins is promised as the result of being baptized in Jesus' Name).

Which only shows that water baptism was fading away (Especially involving the Gentiles). We see this in Acts 18, and Acts 19.

The repentance part in Acts 2:38 is what remits sin. The baptism part was only a symbolic representation of the cleansing of sin (See: Romans 6:3, and then see the word likeness in Romans 6:5). The word likeness in Romans 6:5 is defined as similitude at KingJamesBibleDictionary.com. A similitude is a simile or metaphor (a comparison or picture).

Also, it can be said that Paul was saved on the road to Damascus when Jesus knocked him off his "high horse"...

And yet, Ananias told him that in arising and being baptized, he would wash away his sins in calling on the name of the Lord (Acts of the Apostles 22:16).

The part that says calling upon the name of the Lord is what will wash away one’s sins. This is where Paul had been saved. He was saved by calling upon the name of the Lord (Romans 10:12-13).

Therefore, remission of sins through baptism in Jesus' Name can and does come after a person may receive the Holy Spirit.

If it be of works, then it is no more grace (Romans 11:6).
Meaning if we build works as the foundation of our salvation and not God’s grace, then it is no more grace. It’s just a system of works alone that saves and not God’s grace.

I would also say by this that while water baptism doesn't remove the filth of the flesh (1 Peter 3:20-21), it does wash away sins.

Filth of the flesh mentioned in 1 Peter 3:21 is in reference to either sin (See similar wording in 2 Corinthians 7:1), or it is saying that it does not save as some kind of outward cleansing ceremony. It only saves us to give an answer from having been already cleansed from having a clear conscience before God already.

 

[heartwashed]

We will have to agree to disagree.

2Ti 2:24, And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
2Ti 2:25, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
2Ti 2:26, And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

First of all, according to 1 Peter 3:20-21, water baptism is not the putting away of the filth of the flesh (washing).

Right, it’s not an outward cleansing of the body type ceremony that saves.
Baptism is compared to the flood.
Water did not literally save Noah’s soul.
The flood waters only saved Noah in the sense in that it saved him from that evil world. Noah could still be saved even if that old world still existed.
The flood waters destroying that old world from Noah’s mind is representative of our recognizing that we have been already cleansed of our past sins by seeking forgiveness with Jesus.

The Bible says the like figure whereunto even baptism does now save us. What like figure? Verse 20 refers to the global flood and how Noah was saved through water on the Ark. This is a picture of water baptism. Being water baptized does not put away sin, but it is an answer of one having an already clean conscience towards God, which is only made possible the resurrection of Christ. For when we rise out of the water in water baptism, it is symbolic of the resurrection with the old man being crucified below in the waters (when we first submerged in the water in our water baptism). Water baptism was symbolic of the real baptism (i.e. Spirit baptism) (i.e. the old man is crucified).

Secondly, in Acts 19:1-7, it should be clear that they are first baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus (Acts 2:38 salvation) and then Paul laid hands on them so that they received the Holy Ghost.

Not one drop of water is mentioned in Acts 19.
Both Acts 18, and Acts 19 read together show that there is something beyond water baptism. Paul laid his hands on them and they received the Spirit. This is the baptism that they received. Not water baptism. No water is mentioned. You have to insert water into the text in order for it to be there.

Thirdly, many of the Corinthians were in fact baptized when Paul preached to them. It was just not Paul who did the baptizing.

Again, nowhere does Scripture say that Paul had others baptize while he preached the gospel. That’s merely an addition to Scripture.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

We will have to agree to disagree.

2Ti 2:24, And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
2Ti 2:25, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
2Ti 2:26, And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

You realize that water baptism was a part of John the Baptist’s teachings, right?
The law and the prophets were until John.

Luke 16:16 says:
“The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.”

Christians are not under the Law (Romans 6:14).
We cannot be justified by the Law of Moses (Acts of the Apostles 13:39).

Galatians 3:2 says:
“Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law, or by hearing with faith?”

Granted, Christians are not lawless. Christians are under the Law(s) of Christ (1 Corinthians 9:20).

But they are to obey God’s commands and be fruitful as a part of the secondary aspect of salvation (2 Thessalonians 2:13) (Romans 8:13) after they are saved by God’s grace without works (Ephesians 2:8-9).

Also, consider that Jesus never water baptized anyone.

John the Baptist said he baptizes with water but Jesus would baptize with the Holy Spirit (Matthew 3:11).
Paul says we are to follow his example (As Christ is his example) (See: 1 Corinthians 11:1).
So if this is the case, then we should all simply just baptize two people, and one household and that’s it.

 

[heartwashed]

Since I cannot be unbaptized, I find that there is no reason for me to continue a conversation with you.

Only if you were to come to realize that remission of sins is promised to those who surrender to baptism in Jesus' Name; and if you cross over to my point of view, will we make any progress.

I already have the Holy Ghost as the result of fulfilling the condition to the promise in Acts 2:38-39.

If you feel that you have the Holy Ghost through some kind of promise in holy scripture, who am I to argue with you?

I will only say that we are told to ask, seek, and knock;

And that the door that will open in the knocking is to baptism in Jesus' Name.

But there is no going through a door for me to end up back where I was before.

Being baptized in Jesus' Name is not something I can "undo".

 

[heartwashed]

Jesus did in fact baptize the same way that Paul baptized all of those believers in Corinth (John 4:1-2).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Since I cannot be unbaptized, I find that there is no reason for me to continue a conversation with you.

Only if you were to come to realize that remission of sins is promised to those who surrender to baptism in Jesus' Name; and if you cross over to my point of view, will we make any progress.

I already have the Holy Ghost as the result of fulfilling the condition to the promise in Acts 2:38-39.

If you feel that you have the Holy Ghost through some kind of promise in holy scripture, who am I to argue with you?

I will only say that we are told to ask, seek, and knock;

And that the door that will open in the knocking is to baptism in Jesus' Name.

But there is no going through a door for me to end up back where I was before.

Being baptized in Jesus' Name is not something I can "undo".

I was water baptized in April of 2013, but I received the Spirit long before that in 1992 by accepting Jesus Christ as my Savior, seeking forgiveness of my past life of sin with Him, and believing the gospel message in that Christ died for my sins, He was buried, and risen the third day (1 Corinthians 15:1-4). This is the gospel upon which we received and stand upon for salvation and it was not water baptism.

Acts 2:38 was written to the Jews and it was a call back to repentance and for them to recognize their Messiah Jesus Christ.
It was not given to the Gentiles. This is the problem in trying to apply all things in the Bible as being applicable to us Gentile believers (See: Acts of the Apostles 15). Gentile believers are not under the Law, and water baptism is a part of John the baptist’s teachings (Which was by the Law).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Jesus did in fact baptize the same way that Paul baptized all of those believers in Corinth (John 4:1-2).

The passage you quote says that Jesus did not baptize himself, but His disciples were made to baptize instead. This was during the time of the Old law (Which was before the cross). John the Baptist was the last OT prophet. Jesus said the law and the prophets were until John (John the Baptist). So John was a part of the Old Law. It took time for the Jews to come out from under the Old Law (with even the apostle Paul slipping up on this point) (See: Acts of the Apostles 21:17-26).

 

[heartwashed]

Jhn 4:1, When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John,
Jhn 4:2, (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)

 

[heartwashed]

The passage you quote says that Jesus did not baptize himself, but His disciples were made to baptize instead. This was during the time of the Old law (Which was before the cross). John the Baptist was the last OT prophet. Jesus said the law and the prophets were until John (John the Baptist). So John was a part of the Old Law. It took time for the Jews to come out from under the Old Law (with even the apostle Paul slipping up on this point) (See: Acts of the Apostles 21:17-26).

Jesus, in Matthew 28:19, told us to go and baptize people;

And this was not a part of the Old Testament law.

It was a commandment of the New Testament.

 

[heartwashed]

I was water baptized in April of 2013, but I received the Spirit long before that in 1992 by accepting Jesus Christ as my Savior, seeking forgiveness of my past life of sin with Him, and believing the gospel message in that Christ died for my sins, He was buried, and risen the third day (1 Corinthians 15:1-4). This is the gospel upon which we received and stand upon for salvation and it was not water baptism.

Acts 2:38 was written to the Jews and it was a call back to repentance and for them to recognize their Messiah Jesus Christ.
It was not given to the Gentiles. This is the problem in trying to apply all things in the Bible as being applicable to us Gentile believers (See: Acts of the Apostles 15). Gentile believers are not under the Law, and water baptism is a part of John the baptist’s teachings (Which was by the Law).

So, maybe I am preaching to Jews, that they ought to be water-baptized in Jesus' Name.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Jesus, in Matthew 28:19, told us to go and baptize people;

And this was not a part of the Old Testament law.

It was a commandment of the New Testament.

Matthew 28, and Mark 16 are slightly different from each other.
Baptize means to immerse or wash, etcetera.

In Matthew 28: Jesus was referring to baptizing them (immersing them) into the teachings or commandments in the name (authority) of all three persons of the Godhead or Trinity. In Ephesians 5:25-27, we see this washing mentioned. Christ gave himself for the church that he might cleanse and wash us with the water of the Word that He might present to himself a church that is holy, and without blemish.

In Mark 16: When Jesus says, “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;” He is referring to baptized as in reference to Spirit baptism (Which happens for every believer who accepts Jesus Christ as their Savior).

1 Corinthians 12:13
“For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.”

 

[heartwashed]

Rom 11:17, And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Rom 11:18, Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
Rom 11:19, Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Rom 11:20, Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21, For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22, Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Rom 11:23, And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
Rom 11:24, For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
Rom 11:25, For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.