Holy Smokes what a great post. What is the Scripture Paul wrote for the babes?
What Does Christian Maturity Look Like? - "... solid food is for the mature..." - Heb. 5:14
- Thread starter St. SteVen
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I knew I was a mature Christian when I no longer tried to get God or Jesus Christ to work with me or to get close to me. I now spend much of my time right inside the spirit as close as I can get right in their face. The Greek word menō translated "abide" often deals with being in him, which I'm very concerned about when it comes to walking in Christ, which I believe is the same as walking in the spirit. To be in him or to abide in him deals with remaining or continuing to be present. To dwell, live, and be within him to the end that we are operative in him by his divine influence and energy.OK, @St. SteVen, I pondered this on my morning walk/run and here's my contribution. THEN IT'S NAP TIME. I'll be 74 next week, so I'm definitely a "mature person who is a Christian" even if I'm not a "mature Christian" (although my wife and most who know me might even challenge the mature person part).
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I'm tempted to paraphrase what a Supreme Court Justice said about obscenity: "I can't define Christian maturity, but I know it when I see it." But even that isn't really true. Perhaps: "If you think you can define Christian maturity, you probably aren't a mature Christian." Worse yet: "If you think you are a mature Christian, you surely aren't."
I've known Christians who absolutely radiated the peace, joy, love, contentment and other fruits of the Spirit we'd all love to have. But wait, I've known non-Christians who radiated the same things. Hmmm. I suppose a Christian who radiated the opposite would have difficulty getting anyone to accept him as a mature Christian (take the hint, Bibliolators!).
I don't think it has much to do with where one falls on the wide spectrum of Christian belief. I'm confident there are mature Christians in every branch of the faith.
Whether we're talking about Christians or non-Christians, we're all the product of genetics, childhood influences and other factors beyond our control. My next-door neighbor, now deceased, was an uneducated Alabama farm boy and retired railroader who had been the town drunk, whoremonger, wife-beater and general hell-raiser. He was widely known and detested. I loved the old fart – we became like father (him) and son. He was still a hair-trigger handful, but he truly loved God and was doing the best he could. He was a mature Christian in comparison to what he had once been, that's for sure.
I probably should address whether I think I'm a mature Christian. My honest answer would be, "In a way, but not really." I'm a "scholastically mature" Christian – I've surely studied as much philosophy, theology, apologetics and related subjects as anyone this side of a cloistered monk. But that's just who I am – scholastic by nature. A deep understanding of the issues and doctrines may have something to do with being a mature Christian, I think – but probably not a great deal.
Am I a faithful churchgoer and gospel proclaimer? Uh, no. Tell my neighbors for the past 27 years that O'Darby is a serious Christian and they're going to respond, "O'Darby is a Christian? We had no idea. We know he has a lot of cats."
Have I made the best, in the Christian sense, of the talents with which God has blessed me? Uh, no. I am literally staggered by what some Christians do, and suffer, for their faith. At one place where I worked, I learned that a Christian guy (who made far less than I did) and his wife had made six trips to Ukraine, and endured all the absurd red tape six different times, in order to adopt six Ukrainian orphans and raise them in their modest home in our little town. He never even spoke about it – I learned it from someone else. Or listen to the "Voice of the Martyrs" radio program if you want to be humbled. Suffice it to say, I spend a fair portion of my prayer time apologizing to God for not doing a whole lot (but don't overlook all those feral cats I'm feeding, Jesus!).
I'm pretty kind and certainly very generous – money means close to nothing to me – but not a "good Christian" in the way most people would define it. I'm not expecting any gold crowns in heaven. I will say that, over the decades, I have seen a fundamental transformation in Who I Am without any conscious effort on my part, which is what convinces me there is some reality to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
I would probably define a mature Christian as one who is:
By this standard, I delude myself into believing that I'm at least a somewhat mature Christian, albeit one whose Christian walk falls far short of the ideal. But it's also probably why Bible-thumpers tend to see me as "Not a Christian at all."
- secure in his convictions and comfortable with his doubts and questions;
- nondogmatic about what others should or must believe;
- accepting of the fact that God is an eternal transcendent Other whose ways must remain mysterious to His creatures;
- accepting of the fact that Christianity is not a tidy, connect-the-dots religion but a faith and a way of relating to God that must be experienced and lived;
- accepting of the fact that the Body of Christ includes an incredible diversity of personalities, understandings and talents and that this is what God intended;
- able to see the humor and even the absurdity in all this;
- accepting of his own humanity and the inevitable stumbling, fumbling and failure;
- regularly engaged in prayer and communion with a primary focus on the needs of others and his own shortcomings and failures;
- living in a near-constant state of gratitude to God for His creation and the opportunity to be a part of it; and
- at least making his best effort to lead a life pleasing to God in whatever circumstances he finds himself, even though his life may pale in comparison to those of the saints or an ideal Christian life.
Nap time.This could last a week or more.
@Peterlag said: (questions from St. SteVen in bold)
1) What is the measure of maturity?
Walking in the spirit.
2) What are the signs? (fruit)
Signs, miracles and wonders.
3) How long should it take to get there?
Not long unless you have been educated out of it.
4) What percentage in the church are mature?
An extremely low figure because the church teach their people how to walk in the flesh.
5) What are you doing to help get them there? (assuming)
Teaching it all day long as just about everyone tells me I'm insane for not walking in the flesh like them.
You want maturity? Here it is... My speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the spirit and of power. For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power.
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1) What is the measure of maturity?
Walking in the spirit.
2) What are the signs? (fruit)
Signs, miracles and wonders.
3) How long should it take to get there?
Not long unless you have been educated out of it.
4) What percentage in the church are mature?
An extremely low figure because the church teach their people how to walk in the flesh.
5) What are you doing to help get them there? (assuming)
Teaching it all day long as just about everyone tells me I'm insane for not walking in the flesh like them.
You want maturity? Here it is... My speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the spirit and of power. For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power.
/
Response to @Peterlag
No Signs, miracles and wonders = no maturity?
Do you have a testimony to share?
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Sounds good.
Wow. That is setting the bar pretty high.
No Signs, miracles and wonders = no maturity?
Interesting response. How is one educated out of it?
Yes. That seems to be the consensus on this topic. Rightfully so, I suppose.
Sounds good. Thanks.
Yes, I like that one. (1 Corinthians 2:4) Thanks.
Do you have a testimony to share?
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The scriptures are simple. Even a child could understand it. You will need to go to school and studying it for years to make it complicated like the Catholics who call much of it a mystery. Sin nature is a great example. The new nature came in and the old is gone. You have to go to school to learn that you are still trash. A sinner saved by grace. I write it this way on my website...
We undergo a miraculous exchange at the center of our being once we have the spirit of Christ. Who we were in Adam is no longer there. We become a new person because we are now a child of God who is in Christ. The key event causing this exchange is a death, burial, and resurrection with Christ. This miraculous exchange is not figurative or symbolic, but literal and actual.
The spiritual part of every Christian has literally and actually been crucified, buried, and raised with Christ. The fact that this occurs spiritually and not physically doesn’t make it any less real. So what happens to the old self that was in Adam? The old self is entirely obliterated once the spirit of Christ enters the Christian.
Maybe this one from Peter?
1 Peter 2:2-3 NIV
Like newborn babies, crave pure spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow up in your salvation,
3 now that you have tasted that the Lord is good.
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There is so many things in your post that is just outright incorrect. Where do you want to start?
How about we start with a change of heart on your part?
Lay your weapons down, son. Let peace reign in your heart.
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Pick a verse. Here's a few...
1 John 3 & 5
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin, for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not.
Ya think URWrongAgain might be a clue right there in the name?
Matthew 19:26
But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them,
With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
I said somewhere, maybe here, that I thought the essential message of Scripture could surely be reduced to a handful or less of "plain English" pages. At last attempt, I reduced my "Christian essentials" to 102 words and could surely reduce them by another 20. To achieve God's purposes, the gospel message must be understandable to the dullest, slowest and least sophisticated among us.
Alas, the Bible is anything but short and plain English. It is full of not-easily-resolved ambiguities, inconsistencies and mysteries. I have to believe this was God's intent and plan. For those who are able to go deeper into the faith, wrestling with the ambiguities, inconsistencies and mysteries can occupy a lifetime and draw one into a closer relationship with God. It has nothing do with the Catholics. Deep theological discussions and disputes existed within Judaism and within the Christian community from the earliest days. The legions of NT scholars and the literally tens of thousands of books they have written don't unnecesarily complicate Scripture but recognize that it is complicated once one attempts to deeper (not that going deeper is essential to being a perfectly good Christian).
I disagree a bit with your suggestion that the sin nature is gone when one is born again. Perhaps this isn't what you are suggesting because it would be clearly unbiblical and contrary to every Christian's actual experience. We are indeed new creatures when born again, but we are babes whose path toward sanctification is long and rocky.
I agree that being born again is an actual, real-world event. I mentioned elsewhere that I had a startling, completely unanticipated conversion (alone, in my dorm room) at age 20. It was so startling and unanticipated that I soon questioned it's reality and explored many other spiritual paths over the decades. It was only when I looked back years and years later that I realized "No, that was real. There has been a transforming spirit at work in my life ever since then without me being conscious of it or 'trying' at all." My theory is that God reached down and claimed me at a critical juncture of my life, when I might well have embarked on a completely unspiritual path, knowing full well that I would question the experience before fully accepting it's reality many years later.
St. SteVen said:
How about we start with a change of heart on your part?
Lay your weapons down, son. Let peace reign in your heart.
Father God,
I bring the forum poster with the username URwrongAgain before your throne of grace.
I pray that you would soften his heart toward others. And mostly in the Body of Christ, the church.
That he/she would edify others and be a positive uplifting force for good. In Jesus' name.
AMEN
Matthew 19:26
But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them,
With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
/
How about we start with a change of heart on your part?
Lay your weapons down, son. Let peace reign in your heart.
Fair enough.
Father God,
I bring the forum poster with the username URwrongAgain before your throne of grace.
I pray that you would soften his heart toward others. And mostly in the Body of Christ, the church.
That he/she would edify others and be a positive uplifting force for good. In Jesus' name.
AMEN
Matthew 19:26
But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them,
With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
/
I am no longer a babe in Christ. I graduated and now walk in the spirit of Christ. I believe God gave us a new nature when we are born again and that this is what the apostle Paul taught. I love the NIV on this...
2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!
Then where did this idea come from that we are still sinners by nature, and that the spirit of Christ makes our flesh spiritual, but still alive to sin whereby we must with much effort, frustration, and failure be in a battle with our sin nature the rest of our lives? Who taught us that it's not the spirit that has become our new nature, but that after we received Christ within, we still have the old sin nature left as we live the rest of our lives trying to restrain it? If the apostle Paul taught that we do experience a death to our old sin nature once we are baptized into Christ, and that it’s dead and gone and therefore we are dead to sin? Then where did this idea come from that we are still alive to sin? Could it have come from these guys...
The concept of the original sin was first alluded to in the second century by Irenaeus, (Bishop of Lyon) who was working for the Catholics and not for the apostle Paul. Some two hundred years later another church father who went by the name of Augustine, (Bishop of Hippo) whose writings shaped and developed the doctrine of sin as he considered that humanity shared in Adam's sin. Augustine's formulation of the original sin after the year of 412 was popular among protestant reformers such as Martin Luther and John Calvin, who equated the original sin with a hurtful desire meaning that it persisted even after baptism and therefore completely destroyed the freedom to do good. At first Augustine, said that free will was weakened, but not destroyed by the original sin. But after the year of 412 this concept changed to a loss of free will except to sin, and it's this Augustine's concept that influenced the development of the western church and western philosophy and indirectly all of western Christianity.
Why would you want God to soften my heart towards His enemies?
There are some things God cannot do. The context you are referring to in Matthew is about how can a rich man get saved and God could figure out a way to accomplish that. But there are some things He simply cannot do.
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