Well, I would see baptism and the Lord's Supper as symbols of existing spiritual realities, rather than tools to make them happen.
What Happens When You Believe in Jesus Christ
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The water of the Jordan can't heal leprosy, and Moses' serpent staff can't heal serpent bites, so they're not tools. I see them as tokens, like the bread and wine and baptismal water.
I like the lines of the hymn:
"Only bread, and only wine,
But to faith the solemn sign
Of the heavenly and divine,
We give Thee thanks, O Lord."
I also like that we receive of the body of Christ to discern righteousness from sin. I have sensed and felt Christ's body presence from the sacrament mixed among my body. I think he does that via the Holy Spirit.
Well, I would set more store on Scripture applied to the conscience via the Holy Spirit, rather than feelings accrued via the Lord's Supper. Maybe we don't see it exactly the same way.
I was referring to the following reference, 1 Corinthians 11:29. If done properly, one should be discerning Christ's holy body with ours. Romans 12:5.
I would like to deliberately distinguish between the term and meaning of belief versus faith and the false claim by some that we must enter into Christ in belief...
As true converts in Christ we do not just believe ON or IN Christ, we have the saving faith IN our spirit with Christ in us. We are already one in and with Christ.
And there is ONLY ONE type or form of spiritual faith we practice and possess. It is the faith that saves, where we have FAITH IN Christ's spirit who entered into us along with his Father on the day, hour, minute and second, and moment of our miraculous spiritual conversion - as a new spiritual creature. We have faith IN Christ because Christ has already entered INTO us and we are IN Him.
We never enter into Christ. If we believe, without possessing saving faith, that we must enter INTO Christ to be IN Christ and to remain converted, then this activity is of the carnal mind and one of self-work. Attempting to keep entering into Christ is from one who is unconverted, and will never produce or cause genuine conversion and salvation, let alone wanting a closer walk with God through Christ's spirit, influencing and changing them everyday. We cannot never force conversion or salvation by believing in entering INTO Christ's spirit. The Father can only perform this miraculous act by entering into us to the new life. We first believe, then we, the chosen, are given faith as a gift from God to salvation.
At the moment of conversion the Spirit of God places the spirit of his Son within us. HE enters INTO us, not the other way around. We can do nothing to enter INTO Christ, no matter how hard we try.
All seekers in Christ must go beyond just believing ON and IN Christ. They need the saving faith in spirit! And then this saving faith develops and grows in degrees over time. There are levels or stages of saving faith that we progress into and dwell in - from little faith, growing faith, mature faith to moments of strong, great and unwavering faith that all believers can experience. They are all based on ONE level of faith however, the precious saving faith.
(Rom 12:3) I realize how kind God has been to me, and so I tell each of you not to think you are better than you really are. Use good sense and measure yourself by the amount of faith that God has given you.
Each one in Christ is given a measure of this saving faith suited for his or her purpose for God.
If we are truly in Christ then we are anointed, set aside by God himself for his purpose. And to be anointed and chosen we MUST have this saving faith and not just a belief IN Christ or ON Christ. A belief is more of a mental activity compared to a spiritual faith.
All in the Body of Christ has the SAME saving faith, and varies only in the amount or strength.
Romans 12:4-5 (NKJV)4 For as we have many members in one body, but all the members do not have the same function,5 so we, being many, are one body in Christ, and individually members of one another.
2 Corinthians 1:21-22 (NKJV) 21 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God,22 who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
We do not need to try and keep going INTO Christ. We are already there! We just need to keep trusting in the spirit of Christ with us. We will be amazed how our faith matures as we yield more and more of our life over to Christ, in spirit.
(2Th 1:3) My dear friends, we always have good reason to thank God for you, because your faith in God and your love for each other keep growing all the time.
(Rom 10:17) No one can have faith without hearing the message about Christ.
As one source has said, Active faith is unquestioning belief, trust and reliance upon God with all confidence. Faith can become as real as any of our senses.
As true converts in Christ we do not just believe ON or IN Christ, we have the saving faith IN our spirit with Christ in us. We are already one in and with Christ.
And there is ONLY ONE type or form of spiritual faith we practice and possess. It is the faith that saves, where we have FAITH IN Christ's spirit who entered into us along with his Father on the day, hour, minute and second, and moment of our miraculous spiritual conversion - as a new spiritual creature. We have faith IN Christ because Christ has already entered INTO us and we are IN Him.
We never enter into Christ. If we believe, without possessing saving faith, that we must enter INTO Christ to be IN Christ and to remain converted, then this activity is of the carnal mind and one of self-work. Attempting to keep entering into Christ is from one who is unconverted, and will never produce or cause genuine conversion and salvation, let alone wanting a closer walk with God through Christ's spirit, influencing and changing them everyday. We cannot never force conversion or salvation by believing in entering INTO Christ's spirit. The Father can only perform this miraculous act by entering into us to the new life. We first believe, then we, the chosen, are given faith as a gift from God to salvation.
At the moment of conversion the Spirit of God places the spirit of his Son within us. HE enters INTO us, not the other way around. We can do nothing to enter INTO Christ, no matter how hard we try.
All seekers in Christ must go beyond just believing ON and IN Christ. They need the saving faith in spirit! And then this saving faith develops and grows in degrees over time. There are levels or stages of saving faith that we progress into and dwell in - from little faith, growing faith, mature faith to moments of strong, great and unwavering faith that all believers can experience. They are all based on ONE level of faith however, the precious saving faith.
(Rom 12:3) I realize how kind God has been to me, and so I tell each of you not to think you are better than you really are. Use good sense and measure yourself by the amount of faith that God has given you.
Each one in Christ is given a measure of this saving faith suited for his or her purpose for God.
If we are truly in Christ then we are anointed, set aside by God himself for his purpose. And to be anointed and chosen we MUST have this saving faith and not just a belief IN Christ or ON Christ. A belief is more of a mental activity compared to a spiritual faith.
All in the Body of Christ has the SAME saving faith, and varies only in the amount or strength.
Romans 12:4-5 (NKJV)4 For as we have many members in one body, but all the members do not have the same function,5 so we, being many, are one body in Christ, and individually members of one another.
2 Corinthians 1:21-22 (NKJV) 21 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God,22 who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
We do not need to try and keep going INTO Christ. We are already there! We just need to keep trusting in the spirit of Christ with us. We will be amazed how our faith matures as we yield more and more of our life over to Christ, in spirit.
(2Th 1:3) My dear friends, we always have good reason to thank God for you, because your faith in God and your love for each other keep growing all the time.
(Rom 10:17) No one can have faith without hearing the message about Christ.
As one source has said, Active faith is unquestioning belief, trust and reliance upon God with all confidence. Faith can become as real as any of our senses.
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... to be His disciples.. not for salvation les you deny the power of God to save those that believe.
Robert Gwin
Well-Known Member
Those who obey the commandments of God are the only survivors 1 Jn 5:3; Mat 7:21. I would recommend doing the will of Jehovah.
And that commandment of God by Jesus in Matthew 5:33-37 is not to make an oath, not even swearing by that oath because we cannot do God's work in us or through us by the deeds of the law and we certainly cannot make an oath involving what we will do tomorrow either.
James 4:13 Go to now, ye that say, To day or to morrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain: 14 Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away. 15 For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that. 16 But now ye rejoice in your boastings: all such rejoicing is evil. 17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
James 5:12 But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation.
Jesus Is Jehovah
You are saved since having believed in Jesus Christ as that Lord Jehovah and that God has raised Him from the dead. It is the believing the preaching of the cross is the power of God in salvation to save those that believe.
1 Corinthians 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.... 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
If you wish to "survive" what is coming on the earth in that purpose for "enduring to the end" ( 2 Peter 3:3-18 ), you need to believe you are saved and avoid these iniquities & others, for why God will have vengeance on His people.
God Will Have Vengeance on His People
Sure...
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost....
36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him....
43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins....
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord....
It explains itself...no contradictions at all.
Be a good detective and follow the details.(believe...baptized...remission...believe...baptized...remission...)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost....
37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. 44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
Thanks to Jesus Christ, the good detecting was done because by repenting from unbelief by believing in Him for the remission of sins was how they had received the gift of the Holy Ghost for the Jews when Peter said so.
Proof of this is how one receives the remission of sins by how we get the gift of the holy Ghost is by what had happened to the Gentiles when they had believed the word spoken that it is by believing in Him is how they had received the remission of sins because they got the gift of the Holy Ghost before water baptism.
You did it again.
You read the Bible backwards and when you finally got to Acts 2:38, you dismissed it as "bah humbug".
The 3000 at Pentecost would scowl at you, including Peter and the 120 at Pentecost if you showed up.
The message Peter gave to the Gentiles that believing in Him is for the remission of sins has to be the same message to the Jews, but you are not seeing it in that call to "Repent" which is to turn from unbelief by believing in Him Whom the Jews had crucified in unbelief.
Not sure why you are not seeing it but something is blocking you from reading Peter's words plainly to the Gentiles about how they were to get that remission of sins by believing in Him and what do you know? They got the gift of the Holy Ghost after that, way before water baptism.
Robert Gwin
Well-Known Member
All Christians make a vow to God Chris, which means promise. An oath which was being discussed as you mentioned, means you are swearing about, or confirming something you said was true. Jesus addressed it by simply saying let your yes mean yes, simple as that. In other words, tell the truth at all times. Christians are to imitate Jesus, we both know that if Jesus said it, we could take it to the bank that it was true, so if anyone is a true Christian, keeping in mind that none of us are perfect and subject to error, but if we say it, we had better believe it is the indisputable truth.
Robert Gwin
Well-Known Member
Jesus asked, who are men saying I am? May I ask, why do you think Peter's response was in error when Jesus confirmed it? Mat 16:13-17
man oath or sacrament is a promise as in acts 2:38-39 “this promise”
Which refers to ez 36
Ez 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
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