That's pretty easy gator, I just believe something and I go to heaven. Now the demons believe so they will be in Heaven also, Just believe. I guess that wide road, narrow road stuff ......
What Happens When You Die?
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That's pretty easy gator, I just believe something and I go to heaven. Now the demons believe so they will be in Heaven also, Just believe. I guess that wide road, narrow road stuff ......
WhiteKnuckle
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- Mar 29, 2009
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Ah, and an answer to a question I didn't realize I was looking for. LOL So, I guess there was a chance for Demons to repent and return to their positions in Heaven............ Thanks!
As for the rest of it,, Meh,, I guess I'll quit wondering for now. We'll all find out one day and then if we remember this conversation we'll all laugh and laugh.
Whitek, the demons do not have a chance to repent, their fate has all ready been determined because they choose to not be born of woman (the correct meaning of “born again = born from above,”) but came to earth in angelic form and seduced women and had children by them, read Jude 6.
Pegg, Christ, while in the tomb, preached to those that had died prior to the death and resurrection, and gave them the same opportunity for salvation that we have.
He certainly didnt preach to any of mankind who have died because as an Isrealite he beleived the hebrew scriptures which clearly show that when we die, we are unconcious
Eccl 9:5 tells us the 'dead are conscious of nothing' So what good would Jesus have accomplished in preaching to such ones?
And as God He knew better! The moment someone dies, there spirit and soul return to heaven, some on one side of the gulf some on the other side of the gulf. You must read Eccl. in context.
This idea is from the pagan religions that were in opposition to the Isrealites and their God.
What did the Isrealites consider the spirit and soul to be? Their understanding of spirit and soul are what define their belief and it certainly wasnt the same as what the false religions were teaching. If we dont know what their fundamental beleifs were, then we dont know the truth of the bible.
Dont take my word for it, but look at genesis for an example and you'll see that both man and animals were 'souls'
Genesis 1:20, 21, 24, 25 This bible translation uses the term 'living creatures' for the hebrew word 'nephesh' But that is not a very good translation because the heberw word Nephesh is also translated as 'soul' in other verses.
To the writers of the bible, we who are living (both human and animal) are in fact 'souls'
What do the Jews say about the idea of the soul and spirit surving after death?
The Jewish Encyclopedia (1910), Vol. VI, p. 564. “The belief that the soul continues its existence after the dissolution of the body is a matter of philosophical or theological speculation rather than of simple faith, and is accordingly nowhere expressly taught in Holy Scripture.”
Even the catholic encyclopedia knows that it is not a biblical concept.
New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967), Vol. XIII, pp. 449, 450. “There is no dichotomy [division] of body and soul in the O[ld] T[estament]. The Israelite saw things concretely, in their totality, and thus he considered men as persons and not as composites. The term nepeš [ne′phesh], though translated by our word soul, never means soul as distinct from the body or the individual person. . . . The term [psy‧khe′] is the N[ew] T[estament] word corresponding with nepeš. It can mean the principle of life, life itself, or the living being.”
So if you are really intersted in the truth of the bible, you certainly should seriously reconsider the teaching of survival after death.
No Pegg, I do not need to reconsider it. I understand it completely. Sorry, but you do not, and we will not agree on this. Bring in all the Encyclopedias and books you want, I will stand on what I know from God's Word.
ok fair enough, its not me who is going to convince you anyway.
but can i just ask you how you explain Adams punishment for sin?
For instance, if he was told that his punishment would be death, can it be said that death is really a punishment if the person continues to live?
peg, you say "Dont take my word for it, but look at genesis for an example and you'll see that both man and animals were 'souls' "
not so. only man received the spirit (breath of life) from god and became "a living soul"; not animals
genesis 2; 7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
not so. only man received the spirit (breath of life) from god and became "a living soul"; not animals
genesis 2; 7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
yet moses used the same hebrew word when he said that 'let the earth swarm forth a swarm of living 'souls' (nephesh). The animals were souls because the soul was the living creature whether it was human or animal. Gen 7:22 says that everying that had the breath of life expired when God made it flood in the days of noah.
Later writers also viewed animals as souls as is seen by the writings of Solomon at Ecclesiastes 3:19-20 he says 'all are going to the same place all return to the dust' & 'there is no superiority of the man over the beast for they have but one spirit'
The 'breath of life' was no different in adam as it was in animals. In fact, the hebrew word (ru′ach) for 'breath' is translated as 'spirit' in english. So the spirit is actually the 'breath' in living creatures....and if they have that breath/spirit they are living souls.
I know this is quite different to what the church's of today teach, but this IS how the hebrew writers understood things and their understanding came from their God....its also how Jesus as understood these things to be.
no thats not what i'm asking
I'll try and rephrase it better. If death was supposed to be the 'punishment' for sin, then we should logically conclude that Adam ceased to exist after he died....God said 'from dust you are and to dust you will return'. But if its true that mankind have a part of them that lives on after death, then logically Adam also is still alive somewhere
So what sort of punishment is death, if it is not the end of a persons life? Was God exagerating when he said that death was a punishment? And then we should also ask why the Apostle Paul said 'the wages sin pays is death, but he gift God gives is everlasting life' Romans 6:23 If what you believe is true, then it should be that death is a gift because people go to live with God when they die...that would be a reward and certainly not a punishment if you know what i mean.
you mean 'so the bible says'
the punishment for adam, as with all mankind IS death. adam DID die, physically but not spiiritually. at adam's death, his body returned to the dust from which it came but his spirit returned to heaven from which it came. adam's spirit is still alive with god as will mine be when i die.
what YOU say is NOT what the bible says, but rather how YOU interpret or comprehend it.
i perceive that you have MISSED the true meaning of god's word.
what YOU say is NOT what the bible says, but rather how YOU interpret or comprehend it.
i perceive that you have MISSED the true meaning of god's word.
no thats not what i'm asking
I'll try and rephrase it better. If death was supposed to be the 'punishment' for sin, then we should logically conclude that Adam ceased to exist after he died....God said 'from dust you are and to dust you will return'. But if its true that mankind have a part of them that lives on after death, then logically Adam also is still alive somewhere
So what sort of punishment is death, if it is not the end of a persons life? Was God exagerating when he said that death was a punishment? And then we should also ask why the Apostle Paul said 'the wages sin pays is death, but he gift God gives is everlasting life' Romans 6:23 If what you believe is true, then it should be that death is a gift because people go to live with God when they die...that would be a reward and certainly not a punishment if you know what i mean.
you mean 'so the bible says'
Peg, Sorry but your “logic” is incorrect. Adam did not cease to exist when his flesh died. Just the flesh man Adam died. His soul and spirit returned to God. He is not sleeping either. His was one of the spirits that Christ preached to during the days Christ was in the tomb. Now I realize you will not understand this but it is the way it is. Period! The ultimate punishment for sin is eternal death. The soul is blotted out; ceases to exist. But God is fair and just, He will not condemn a soul to eternal death without that soul having had a chance to hear and except or reject the Good News. Every one, every one that goes through this flesh age will make that decision on their own. That is why He went to those that had died before His death and resurrection. That is the reason we are in this 2nd earth and heaven age, and there is a third heaven and earth age coming.
Animals do not have that chance. They are living creatures but they do not have a soul like ours.
you can tell me my logic is incorrect, but i'd much prefer you show me from the scriptures that my logic is incorrect. What is really being debated here is not 'theology' but rather what the scritpures mean and say about death. What happens to us when we die is the question....not what the current theology is about death and the soul.
I have provided scritpures that explain the state of mankind when they die which is what the thread is asking.
Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6, 10
Psalm 115:17
Psalm 146:4
Isaiah 38:18
Job 7:9-10
Psalm 78:39
I have also provided the meaning of the hebrew words for soul and spirit and examples of how they are used in the bible.
Strongs hebrew Dictionary says of Nephesh/Soul= a soul, living being, life, self, person, desire, passion, appetite, emotion
Ruwach/Spirit= a primitive root; properly, to blow, i.e. breathe;
The Dictionary of Bible and Religion says, it “usually refers to the entire living being, to the whole individual.”
Genesis 2:7 says the man became a 'living soul' when the breath of life (spirit) was put into him. The king James version says that Adam became a 'living soul' as do many others.
In the Darby translation they use 'living soul' in Gen 1:20 about the animals
The Darby Translation: Gen 1: 20 "And God said, Let the waters swarm with swarms of living souls,
The Hebrew Interlinear shows that the word in the original language is in fact 'soul' in this verse
Gen 1:20 and·he-is-saying Elohim they-shall-roam the·waters roamer-of soul living (nphsh) and·flyer,
Even in the New testament we see the same ideas carried over. When Jesus went to the young girl who had died he said 'she is only sleeping' Matt. 9:18, 23-25 this shows that jesus view of the dead is that they are in a sleeplike condition just as the hebrew scriptures state. He said that same thing about Lazarus in John 11:11
Then we have the example of how 'Psyche/Soul' is used by the apostles. 1 Pet. 3:20 KJV "...in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls (psy‧khai) were saved by water."
So Peter says that the living family were the 'eight souls' who survived....IOW they were souls because they were alive just as Genesis states 'Adam came to be a living soul'.
And the NT gives us another line of evidence that when we die we go back to the ground and remain there in the words of Peter and John. John says that 'no man has ascended into heaven' John 3:13 & Peter says specifically that King David did not ascend to heaven but that he is still in his tomb Acts 2:29, 34.
So i think the bible does provide more then enough evidence that when we die, we cease to exist in any sort of form.
Can you provide any evidence from the scriptures that Adam was given a heavenly reward for his disobedience?
Ecc 12:7 and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
it is "the breath of life" that god breathed into adam that made him a living soul. it takes "a body" provided by our parents (procreation) AND a "spirit" provided by god when we're born to completely comprise a living soul (man)
right, so the breath of us is our spirit. Its as Job 27:3 puts it, "While my breath is yet whole within me, And the spirit of God is in my nostrils" We have spirit as long as we have breath.
But considering Psalm 146:4 tells us that when our spirit goes out all our thoughts perish, what part of 'us' do you think returns to God?
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