What I believe about the Atonement

[Tong2020]

If "atonement" means "reconciliation" (or "at-one-ment") then it is the result of justification (which is the same as "righteousness") and redemption (which is the price paid for our reconciliation). What remains is to find out if we are reconciled to God via righteousness through the law or apart from the law.

As I said, atonement is different from justification, and different from redemption. And also, it is not the result of justification and redemption.

May I ask, do you believe that Jesus Christ have made atonement for Eve, for Adam and his posterity?

Tong
R0484

 

[John Caldwell]

As I said, atonement is different from justification, and different from redemption. And also, it is not the result of justification and redemption.

May I ask, do you believe that Jesus Christ have made atonement for Eve, for Adam and his posterity?

Tong
R0484

I believe that through Christ God reconciled all things to Himself (whether things on earth or things in heaven), having made peace through the blood of His cross. So yes. "All things" means "all things".

 

[Tong2020]

I believe that through Christ God reconciled all things to Himself (whether things on earth or things in heaven), having made peace through the blood of His cross. So yes. "All things" means "all things".

Are you saying that you believe that all things, which includes all mankind, is reconciled to God? And since you said atonement is reconciliation and that atonement (or reconciliation therefore) is the result of justification and redemption, then would that not amount to the justification and redemption of all mankind? And of course that would be false.

Tong
R0485

 

[John Caldwell]

Are you saying that you believe that all things, which includes all mankind, is reconciled to God? And since you said atonement is reconciliation and that atonement (or reconciliation therefore) is the result of justification and redemption, then would that not amount to the justification and redemption of all mankind? And of course that would be false.

Tong
R0485

I do believe the passage that "it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven." (Col. 1:19-20). And I do believe that on the Cross God was reconciling the world to Himself (2 Cor. 5:19).

Where you are missing the point (in my opinion) is you are looking at this on an individual basis (that all individuals are made "just" with God) rather than taking it as it states in Scripture. In Christ the world (perhaps mankind) is reconciled to God. This includes everything because those not reconciled in the positive will ultimately be reconciled negatively. Mankind is reconciled to God in Christ. People who are not will perish at Judgment (which is also Christ-centered).

Righteousness speaks not only of moral justness but of being made right with God in accordance to God's Word. Sin is not made righteous. Sin is destroyed. Death is not made righteous. Death is destroyed. But what is the result? The world is reconciled to God through Christ.

 

[Tong2020]

I do believe the passage that "it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven." (Col. 1:19-20). And I do believe that on the Cross God was reconciling the world to Himself (2 Cor. 5:19).

Where you are missing the point (in my opinion) is you are looking at this on an individual basis (that all individuals are made "just" with God) rather than taking it as it states in Scripture. In Christ the world (perhaps mankind) is reconciled to God. This includes everything because those not reconciled in the positive will ultimately be reconciled negatively. Mankind is reconciled to God in Christ. People who are not will perish at Judgment (which is also Christ-centered).

Righteousness speaks not only of moral justness but of being made right with God in accordance to God's Word. Sin is not made righteous. Sin is destroyed. Death is not made righteous. Death is destroyed. But what is the result? The world is reconciled to God through Christ.

I have no problem understanding Col. 1:19-20. And that passage does not mean to say that all things are reconciled to God, but that God is pleased to reconcile all things to Himself through Jesus Christ. Now we do know that not all mankind is reconciled to God, don't we? We also know that the demons are not reconciled to God. And that by itself refutes the understanding that the passage declares that all things, without exclusion, are reconciled to God.

Tong
R0486

 

[John Caldwell]

I have no problem understanding Col. 1:19-20. And that passage does not mean to say that all things are reconciled to God, but that God is pleased to reconcile all things to Himself through Jesus Christ. Now we do know that not all mankind is reconciled to God, don't we? We also know that the demons are not reconciled to God. And that by itself refutes the understanding that the passage declares that all things, without exclusion, are reconciled to God.

Tong
R0486

I cannot go off of what a passage means to say - I only know what it does say. Mankind is reconciled to God in Christ. All things will be reconciled to God in Christ. And when all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all. I believe that those who will not be found "in Christ" and Satan and the demons will be cast into the "outer darkness" or the "Lake of Fire" which is the "Second Death". So yes, all things will be reconciled to God in the context that those who reject Christ, Satan and demons will no longer be a part of Creation (of "all things").

 

[Tong2020]

I cannot go off of what a passage means to say - I only know what it does say. Mankind is reconciled to God in Christ. All things will be reconciled to God in Christ. And when all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all. I believe that those who will not be found "in Christ" and Satan and the demons will be cast into the "outer darkness" or the "Lake of Fire" which is the "Second Death". So yes, all things will be reconciled to God in the context that those who reject Christ, Satan and demons will no longer be a part of Creation (of "all things").

Well, you must not go off of what a passage means to say. But one sure can be off in his understanding of the passage, as in this case where you take the passage to be saying that all things, without exclusion, are reconciled to God, which runs contrary to the truths that not all mankind is reconciled to God and that demons are not reconciled to God.

Now, you said "..all things will be reconciled to God in the context that those who reject Christ, Satan and demons will no longer be a part of Creation.." By saying this, you in a way and in effect, in agreement that the "all things" in the passage excludes the unsaved and the demons, and Satan.

Tong
R0488

 

[John Caldwell]

Well, you must not go off of what a passage means to say. But one sure can be off in his understanding of the passage, as in this case where you take the passage to be saying that all things, without exclusion, are reconciled to God, which runs contrary to the truths that not all mankind is reconciled to God and that demons are not reconciled to God.

Now, you said "..all things will be reconciled to God in the context that those who reject Christ, Satan and demons will no longer be a part of Creation.." By saying this, you in a way and in effect, in agreement that the "all things" in the passage excludes the unsaved and the demons, and Satan.

Tong
R0488

I supposed I'm "intellectually challenged". I've read between the lines for so long and been proven wrong that I no longer trust myself to decide what a passage means to say and have to settle with what it does say. I think that even here, in my ignorance, Christ can make me stand. So I'm comfortable with this.

I have always said that "all things" refers to the World (that the World is reconciled, all things will be reconciled) and not to individual things.

If I save a forest I am not saying every tree in that forest will be saved. But in the end the forest is saved. What you have to consider is a kingdom outlook. The kingdom is here, yet it is not here in its fullest form (in its concluding state). There will be a time (in the future) when all things are put under Christ's feet. Does this mean trees that were alive 100 years ago but are now gone? No. That type of legalistic thinking is flawed. It means what it says.

 

[Tong2020]

I supposed I'm "intellectually challenged". I've read between the lines for so long and been proven wrong that I no longer trust myself to decide what a passage means to say and have to settle with what it does say. I think that even here, in my ignorance, Christ can make me stand. So I'm comfortable with this.

I have always said that "all things" refers to the World (that the World is reconciled, all things will be reconciled) and not to individual things.

If I save a forest I am not saying every tree in that forest will be saved. But in the end the forest is saved. What you have to consider is a kingdom outlook. The kingdom is here, yet it is not here in its fullest form (in its concluding state). There will be a time (in the future) when all things are put under Christ's feet. Does this mean trees that were alive 100 years ago but are now gone? No. That type of legalistic thinking is flawed. It means what it says.

I asked you in post #302, and I quote "do you believe that Jesus Christ have made atonement for Eve, for Adam and his posterity?" Your answer was Yes.

Yet it seems that what you are saying here and in post #306 runs contrary to that.

Tong
R0489

 

[John Caldwell]

I asked you in post #302, and I quote "do you believe that Jesus Christ have made atonement for Eve, for Adam and his posterity?" Your answer was Yes.

Yet it seems that what you are saying here and in post #306 runs contrary to that.

Tong
R0489

My answer is yes. Jesus Christ made atonement for all of mankind. This moved everything from a context of the "First Adam" and his transgression to the "Last Adam" and His obedience. I do not believe that Christ merely saved a group of people. I believe that EVERYTHING and EVERYONE is reconciled in Christ to the Father. Those who are "in Christ" individually (who are saved) are justified in Christ. Those who are not "in Christ" remain condemned but the condemnation is Christ-centered as well (they are condemned for rejecting Christ and remain in their sins).

 

[Tong2020]

I do not believe that Christ merely saved a group of people.

Are you saying He saved all? Which every Christian perhaps know that to be false.

Going back to the subject of atonement, may I ask:

How do you see the atonement work of Christ Jesus affecting the unsaved dead, such as are perhaps Cain, those whom God condemned and destroyed until the generation of Noah, those whom God condemned and destroyed in the flood in Noah's time, the Egyptian firstborns whom God killed in the Exodus, Pharaoh and his men whom God destroyed, the idolatrous children of Israel whom God killed in wilderness, those whom God killed in the taking of the land of Canaan, the false prophets, Judas, and all the pagans and sinners who had lived and died, whom God had given up to uncleanness, to vile passions, and to a debased mind, who lived before the cross of Jesus Christ?

Also, how do you see the atonement work of Christ Jesus affecting the saved dead such as are Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, who lived before the cross of Jesus Christ?

Tong
R0492

 

[John Caldwell]

Are you saying He saved all? Which every Christian perhaps know that to be false.

Going back to the subject of atonement, may I ask:

How do you see the atonement work of Christ Jesus affecting the unsaved dead, such as are perhaps Cain, those whom God condemned and destroyed until the generation of Noah, those whom God condemned and destroyed in the flood in Noah's time, the Egyptian firstborns whom God killed in the Exodus, Pharaoh and his men whom God destroyed, the idolatrous children of Israel whom God killed in wilderness, those whom God killed in the taking of the land of Canaan, the false prophets, Judas, and all the pagans and sinners who had lived and died, whom God had given up to uncleanness, to vile passions, and to a debased mind, who lived before the cross of Jesus Christ?

Also, how do you see the atonement work of Christ Jesus affecting the saved dead such as are Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, who lived before the cross of Jesus Christ?

Tong
R0492

I am not saying all are saved. I am saying all judgment has been given to Christ (to include those who lived before the cross).

 

[Tong2020]

I am not saying all are saved. I am saying all judgment has been given to Christ (to include those who lived before the cross).

How about answering my other two questions regarding atonement?

Tong
R0493

 

[John Caldwell]

How about answering my other two questions regarding atonement?

Tong
R0493

How do you see the atonement work of Christ Jesus affecting the unsaved dead, such as are perhaps Cain, those whom God condemned and destroyed until the generation of Noah, those whom God condemned and destroyed in the flood in Noah's time, the Egyptian firstborns whom God killed in the Exodus, Pharaoh and his men whom God destroyed, the idolatrous children of Israel whom God killed in wilderness, those whom God killed in the taking of the land of Canaan, the false prophets, Judas, and all the pagans and sinners who had lived and died, whom God had given up to uncleanness, to vile passions, and to a debased mind, who lived before the cross of Jesus Christ?

I do not believe the unsaved will be saved. Salvation looks to a future state. I do believe that because of the cross EVERYONE will be raised, some to life and others to condemnation. This, I believe, is a result of Christ's work.

Also, how do you see the atonement work of Christ Jesus affecting the saved dead such as are Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, who lived before the cross of Jesus Christ?

The timing is not at issue when it comes to salvation. Those who have faith in Christ will be saved (whether it was a faith in anticipation of the Promise or faith in the accomplished work).

On the Cross God was reconciling the world to Himself. Those past sins were not judged.

Romans 3:21-26 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

 

[Grams]

Eph. 2:

7
That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9
Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

[Tong2020]

How do you see the atonement work of Christ Jesus affecting the unsaved dead, such as are perhaps Cain, those whom God condemned and destroyed until the generation of Noah, those whom God condemned and destroyed in the flood in Noah's time, the Egyptian firstborns whom God killed in the Exodus, Pharaoh and his men whom God destroyed, the idolatrous children of Israel whom God killed in wilderness, those whom God killed in the taking of the land of Canaan, the false prophets, Judas, and all the pagans and sinners who had lived and died, whom God had given up to uncleanness, to vile passions, and to a debased mind, who lived before the cross of Jesus Christ?

I do not believe the unsaved will be saved. Salvation looks to a future state. I do believe that because of the cross EVERYONE will be raised, some to life and others to condemnation. This, I believe, is a result of Christ's work.

Well, the question is not whether the unsaved will be saved or not. Rather, it is whether the atonement work of Jesus Christ affects the unsaved dead such as those I mentioned who lived and died before the cross. I contend that it affects them not.

Also, how do you see the atonement work of Christ Jesus affecting the saved dead such as are Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, who lived before the cross of Jesus Christ?

The timing is not at issue when it comes to salvation. Those who have faith in Christ will be saved (whether it was a faith in anticipation of the Promise or faith in the accomplished work).

On the Cross God was reconciling the world to Himself. Those past sins were not judged.

Romans 3:21-26 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

There are a lot that comes out of the work of Jesus Christ at the cross. But we are talking about atonement, not justification, not redemption.

The question is not who will be saved or not. Rather, it is whether the atonement work of Jesus Christ affects the saved dead such as those I mentioned who lived and died before the cross. I contend that Jesus' atonement affects them in that God will not count and impute their sins against them.

Tong
R0495

 

[John Caldwell]

Well, the question is not whether the unsaved will be saved or not. Rather, it is whether the atonement work of Jesus Christ affects the unsaved dead such as those I mentioned who lived and died before the cross. I contend that it affects them not.

There are a lot that comes out of the work of Jesus Christ at the cross. But we are talking about atonement, not justification, not redemption.

The question is not who will be saved or not. Rather, it is whether the atonement work of Jesus Christ affects the saved dead such as those I mentioned who lived and died before the cross. I contend that Jesus' atonement affects them in that God will not count and impute their sins against them.

Tong
R0495

You can't talk about the Atonement (about Reconciliation) without talking about redemption and justification.

The work of Christ has a universal effect - it affects all of Creation. The work of the Cross means the reconciliation of mankind (as the Early Church taught, the "human family"). It moves judgment from the Father to the Son (all Judgment is given the Son). It has a purpose for society, for how men interact with other men. It has an impact on Creation which awaits in hope.

The problem, I believe, is post-Reformation it has become trendy to look at "the Atonement" in terms of only its effect on individual people. Focus has shifted from Reconciliation with Christ at the center to "atonement" with men and human sin at the center.

 

[Tong2020]

You can't talk about the Atonement (about Reconciliation) without talking about redemption and justification.

The work of Christ has a universal effect - it affects all of Creation. The work of the Cross means the reconciliation of mankind (as the Early Church taught, the "human family"). It moves judgment from the Father to the Son (all Judgment is given the Son). It has a purpose for society, for how men interact with other men. It has an impact on Creation which awaits in hope.

The problem, I believe, is post-Reformation it has become trendy to look at "the Atonement" in terms of only its effect on individual people. Focus has shifted from Reconciliation with Christ at the center to "atonement" with men and human sin at the center.

Scriptures talk about what atonement is and what it means, mainly in the Law and the Prophets. And there is no reason for what it is and what it means, to change in the NT. And while atonement is connected to salvation, it is not justification nor is it redemption.

Yes, the works of Christ affects all creation. There is no issue on that. But atonement is only one among the many works of Christ involved in the salvation of His people, the people that the Father had given Him.

Tong
R0497

 

[John Caldwell]

Scriptures talk about what atonement is and what it means, mainly in the Law and the Prophets. And there is no reason for what it is and what it means, to change in the NT. And while atonement is connected to salvation, it is not justification nor is it redemption.

Yes, the works of Christ affects all creation. There is no issue on that. But atonement is only one among the many works of Christ involved in the salvation of His people, the people that the Father had given Him.

Tong
R0497

Scripture does talk about sacrifices and the atonement in the Law. And this foreshadows the Cross. But nowhere is God presented as punishing any sacrifice instead of punishing a person. That is not only a misunderstanding of Jewish thought but of the New Testament as well.

 

[Tong2020]

Scripture does talk about sacrifices and the atonement in the Law. And this foreshadows the Cross. But nowhere is God presented as punishing any sacrifice instead of punishing a person. That is not only a misunderstanding of Jewish thought but of the New Testament as well.

Simply put, atonement is not the punishing of a sacrifice instead of punishing the person, the sinner.

Under the OT Law, the Israelite brings an offering which the priest uses to make atonement which then sort of provides a temporary covering, but not payment, for the sin. With this atonement done, their offense or sin no longer prevents them from coming before God and ask for His mercy and forgiveness and be reconciled to Him. In the NT, that is no longer the case. For Jesus Christ had made atonement in that regard, once and for all, that is, not only for them Jews, but even for them Gentiles.

Atonement relative to sin, as spoken in Scripture, is with the connotation of "a covering" of the offense or sin to allow for one who seeks to be reconciled, to approach the Holy God and ask for His mercy, the forgiveness of His sin. Atonement does not, however, remove the offense or sin.

Tong
R0498