What if early documents of Scripture had been lost?

[OzSpen]

In my study this week, I've been investigating how many quotes from the NT are in the early church fathers. Sir David Dalrymple gave a lot of time to researching this issue and found this:

As I possessed all the existing works of the Fathers of the second and third centuries, I commenced to search, and up to this time: I have found the entire New Testament [in the Fathers], except eleven verses (in Geisler & Nix 1986:430).

Geisler and Nix (1986:431) tabulate the early citations of the NT in the church fathers and found a total of 36,289 citations. These included the works of Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, Origen, Tertullian, Hippolytus and Eusebius.

While some of these quotes that are extant 'are often loose', all but 11 verses of the NT could be compiled from these citations. I find this to be amazing evidence so early after the writing of the NT. An entire NT could be developed from these quotes.

Works consulted

Geisler, N L & Nix, W E 1986. A general introduction to the Bible, rev ed. Chicago: Moody Press.

 

[tom55]

I have often wondered 'Do we have ALL of the writings from the Apostles". There were 12 but we don't have 12 different writings. IF writings from some of the other apostles are found I hope I am alive when it happens. That would be exciting for a history/bible nerd like me.

 

[OzSpen]

I have often wondered 'Do we have ALL of the writings from the Apostles". There were 12 but we don't have 12 different writings. IF writings from some of the other apostles are found I hope I am alive when it happens. That would be exciting for a history/bible nerd like me.

Tom,

We have all the canonical writings that God is going to give us. They are in OT and NT. There will be no more. Haven't you heard of the pseudonymous documents:

• The Gospel of Thomas;
• The Gospel of Peter;
• The Gospel of Judas.
• The Gospel of Philip.

Besides, there are books in the NT that are not written by an apostle. These include, The Gospel of Mark, The Gospel of Luke, the Book of Acts, and the Book of Hebrews.

Oz

 

[H. Richard]

Is it possible that mankind can only see that the Bible is in existence only because of the effort and work of mankind? Do they see that it was left in the hands of mankind to give us the Bible today?

God, the Holy Spirit, has given us the Bible. To think otherwise is to think faith in Jesus was the ideas of mankind.,

 

[tom55]

Tom,

We have all the canonical writings that God is going to give us. They are in OT and NT. There will be no more. Haven't you heard of the pseudonymous documents:

• The Gospel of Thomas;
• The Gospel of Peter;
• The Gospel of Judas.
• The Gospel of Philip.

Besides, there are books in the NT that are not written by an apostle. These include, The Gospel of Mark, The Gospel of Luke, the Book of Acts, and the Book of Hebrews.

Oz

I didn't make myself clear. I apologize.

How do we know for sure we have them all? Paul wasn't an apostle but his writings made it into the bible. How do we know FOR SURE that we wont' have another Dead Sea Scrolls type finding (lost in a cave for 2000 years) of a person like Paul? Maybe there are more writings from the apostles that haven't been found. How do we know for sure the canon is closed and no more will be added?

 

[FHII]

Tom55,

Paul was an apostle, but not one who would be qualified to write a gospel. So I know what you meant.

Consider, though, that paul mentioned an epistle to the leaodicians that he wrote. He mentions it in Col 4:16. Also consider that in 1 cor 5:9 Paul notes a former epistle to them (thus, at least 3 were written to the corinthians).

I don't know if the first 12 wrote other gospels (of course, other than Matthew, Mark and John). I wouldn't trust any gospel of Judas as really being from him. When would he have wrote it? As for the others... don't know.

But my point is that I do believe other writings happened. Yet, I trust God that we have everything we need.

 

[OzSpen]

I didn't make myself clear. I apologize.

How do we know for sure we have them all? Paul wasn't an apostle but his writings made it into the bible. How do we know FOR SURE that we wont' have another Dead Sea Scrolls type finding (lost in a cave for 2000 years) of a person like Paul? Maybe there are more writings from the apostles that haven't been found. How do we know for sure the canon is closed and no more will be added?

Tom,

It is theoretically possible that an apostolic/prophetic book could be found that could belong in the canon.

However, it seems to me that in the providence of God, it is improbable that God would have a God-breathed book that he did not make available to the people for approx. 2,000 years.

We can say - based on the evidence from the last 1700 years - that the canon of Scripture is closed.

Yes, it is hypothetical that the canon could be open but the consequences of such are that God's people would have been without it for approx 2,000 years. It seems to me that God in his providence has made it improbable that unpreserved books have been hidden for 2,000 years and have not been found.

The Council of Hippo in 393 and the Council of Carthage in 397, with strong influence from Augustine of Hippo, fixed the NT canon of Scripture.

You state that Paul wasn't an apostle. That's not what the NT teaches. We know from Luke's writing in Acts 14:14 that Paul was considered an apostle, 'But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard of this, they tore their clothes and rushed out into the crowd, shouting'. Even though he was not one of the original 12 apostles who walked and talked with Jesus, he was an apostle according to 1 Tim 1:1, 'Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the command of God our Savior and of Christ Jesus our hope'. What does Paul tell the Corinthians? 'Are not you my workmanship in the Lord? If to others I am not an apostle, at least I am to you, for you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord' (1 Cor 9:1b-2 ESV).

Scriptures affirm that Paul was a true apostle.

Oz

 

[Skitnik]

. Yet, I trust God that we have everything we need.

I know that it will sound as an absolute blasphemy to some here but God DID NOT put together what is, as we know today as "Bible". Pagan emperor Constantin did. The very same emperor that turned belief system into state owned and operated religion. Some writings used by early Christians did not make it into canonized Bible.

Even more "blasphemos" suggestion: Writings of apostate called Solomon should not be in the "bible". Apostate who may have died while being an apostate. He build a temple to God? Yes, but he built temples to many other gods too. He broke God's restriction to marry outside of Israel only about 1000 times or so. God personally appealed to him twice to stop and he ignored God Himself!

http://biblehub.com/1_kings/11-9.htm

also verses to ponder:

http://biblehub.com/2_samuel/1-18.htm

and

http://biblehub.com/jude/1-14.htm

So, why did book of Jasher (Jashar) and Enoch did not make it into canonized bible?

Few others:

http://biblehub.com/1_chronicles/29-29.htm

http://biblehub.com/titus/1-12.htm

 

[mjrhealth]

I know that it will sound as an absolute blasphemy to some here but God DID NOT put together what is, as we know today as "Bible". Pagan emperor Constantin did. The very same emperor that turned belief system into state owned and operated religion. Some writings used by early Christians did not make it into canonized Bible.

Not really if they read it with their eyes open they would see.

When one takes a book, raises it to a position higher than God and than demand that God agrees with it and not the other way around, there is a problem.

In all His Love

 

[H. Richard]

I know that it will sound as an absolute blasphemy to some here but God DID NOT put together what is, as we know today as "Bible". Pagan emperor Constantin did. The very same emperor that turned belief system into state owned and operated religion. Some writings used by early Christians did not make it into canonized Bible.

Even more "blasphemos" suggestion: Writings of apostate called Solomon should not be in the "bible". Apostate who may have died while being an apostate. He build a temple to God? Yes, but he built temples to many other gods too. He broke God's restriction to marry outside of Israel only about 1000 times or so. God personally appealed to him twice to stop and he ignored God Himself!

http://biblehub.com/1_kings/11-9.htm

also verses to ponder:

http://biblehub.com/2_samuel/1-18.htm

and

http://biblehub.com/jude/1-14.htm

So, why did book of Jasher (Jashar) and Enoch did not make it into canonized bible?

Few others:

http://biblehub.com/1_chronicles/29-29.htm

http://biblehub.com/titus/1-12.htm

The Bible says that all scripture was written by those who were lead by the Holy Spirit. Why would anyone think that God did not have anything to do with the Bible scriptures as printed?

If people will remember God lead a pagan king to help rebuild the Jews temple.

 

[Skitnik]

The Bible says that all scripture was written by those who were lead by the Holy Spirit. Why would anyone think that God did not have anything to do with the Bible scriptures as printed?

If people will remember God lead a pagan king to help rebuild the Jews temple.

Paul was talking about scripture that he studied "from childhood" AKA Torah which would not include one word of New Testament. I do not see him calling his own writings as "scriptures"

http://biblehub.com/2_timothy/3-16.htm

Books written by Moses is the Word of God. The rest is word of kings, prophets, apostles, letters of pastors to one another, historical accounts......

If Jude is "scripture" and quotes from Enoch then why Enoch is not in the bible?
If 2 Samuel is "scripture" and mentions book of Jashar then why Jashar is not in the bible?

I do not see writings of that pagan king in the bible. Why words of apostate (Solomon) are?

 

[H. Richard]

Paul was talking about scripture that he studied "from childhood" AKA Torah which would not include one word of New Testament. I do not see him calling his own writings as "scriptures"

http://biblehub.com/2_timothy/3-16.htm

Books written by Moses is the Word of God. The rest is word of kings, prophets, apostles, letters of pastors to one another, historical accounts......

If Jude is "scripture" and quotes from Enoch then why Enoch is not in the bible?
If 2 Samuel is "scripture" and mentions book of Jashar then why Jashar is not in the bible?

I do not see writings of that pagan king in the bible. Why words of apostate (Solomon) are?

I think Peter tells us that Paul's writings are scriptures when he Said "the rest of the scriptures."

2 Peter 3:16
16 as also in all his (Paul's) epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
NKJV

 

[Skitnik]

I think Peter tells us that Paul's writings are scriptures when he Said "the rest of the scriptures."

2 Peter 3:16
16 as also in all his (Paul's) epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
NKJV

How about you, being polite and all answer my questions before asking yours?

 

[mjrhealth]

I think Peter tells us that Paul's writings are scriptures when he Said "the rest of the scriptures."

The disciples being "x Jews" would only, like Christ ever considered the OT, teh Torah to be Scripture since that is what they where taught.

 

[OzSpen]

I know that it will sound as an absolute blasphemy to some here but God DID NOT put together what is, as we know today as "Bible". Pagan emperor Constantin did. The very same emperor that turned belief system into state owned and operated religion. Some writings used by early Christians did not make it into canonized Bible.

Please provide your documented evidence to support your statement that pagan Emperor Constantine put together the Bible.

 

[Skitnik]

Please provide your documented evidence to support your statement that pagan Emperor Constantine put together the Bible.

Ever heard of Council of Nicaea?

Constantine invited some 1800 Christian bishops. About 300 bothered to show up. Most likely those were from closer by provinces. Constantine presided over first one and likely more then one. So it was up to him to decide what official "christianity' will look like and which doctrines it will teach. Official "canon" was established around that time.

He made first "Fifty Bibles of Constantine" to be "official" bibles to be distributed to churches. It was a de-facto emperor approved teachings of new, legal and official christianity.

 

[OzSpen]

Ever heard of Council of Nicaea?

Constantine invited some 1800 Christian bishops. About 300 bothered to show up. Most likely those were from closer by provinces. Constantine presided over first one and likely more then one. So it was up to him to decide what official "christianity' will look like and which doctrines it will teach. Official "canon" was established around that time.

He made first "Fifty Bibles of Constantine" to be "official" bibles to be distributed to churches. It was a de-facto emperor approved teachings of new, legal and official christianity.

Skitnik,

Of course I know of the Council of Nicaea. I didn't come down in the last theological shower. I have a PhD in NT.

However, you have provided not one link to a piece of evidence to support your view. These are nothing more than your assertions without documentation.

Here is one piece of documentation of what happened at 'The First Council of Nicaea' in AD 325 (Catholic Encyclopedia, online).

There is further documentation on 'The Council of Nicaea, AD 325' in Philip Schaff's History of the Christian Church (online).

Oz

 

[tom55]

Tom,
It is theoretically possible that an apostolic/prophetic book could be found that could belong in the canon.
However, it seems to me that in the providence of God, it is improbable that God would have a God-breathed book that he did not make available to the people for approx. 2,000 years.
We can say - based on the evidence from the last 1700 years - that the canon of Scripture is closed.
Yes, it is hypothetical that the canon could be open but the consequences of such are that God's people would have been without it for approx 2,000 years. It seems to me that God in his providence has made it improbable that unpreserved books have been hidden for 2,000 years and have not been found.
The Council of Hippo in 393 and the Council of Carthage in 397, with strong influence from Augustine of Hippo, fixed the NT canon of Scripture.
You state that Paul wasn't an apostle. That's not what the NT teaches. We know from Luke's writing in Acts 14:14 that Paul was considered an apostle, 'But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard of this, they tore their clothes and rushed out into the crowd, shouting'. Even though he was not one of the original 12 apostles who walked and talked with Jesus, he was an apostle according to 1 Tim 1:1, 'Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the command of God our Savior and of Christ Jesus our hope'. What does Paul tell the Corinthians? 'Are not you my workmanship in the Lord? If to others I am not an apostle, at least I am to you, for you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord' (1 Cor 9:1b-2 ESV).
Scriptures affirm that Paul was a true apostle.
Oz

I do believe the NT canon is closed and it is highly improbable that any new writings will be found that scholars would say are worthy to be added to the bible. I was just having a huge What if.....happened? My thoughts on this are kind of parallel with thinking; What if man found out they could fly (like superman) and didn't even know it until one day a person figured it out and told everyone else how they could do it!

Does my fantasy statement "'Do we have ALL of the writings from the Apostles" make more sense now? <_<

I do agree Hippo and Carthage were instrumental in fixing NT and OT scripture as Gods word. But why did God not let the Christians before the fourth century KNOW which writings were inspired by him?

Also, if Hippo and Carthage canonized the NT scripture why doesn't everyone accept the OT books they canonized? If those men were inspired by the Holy Spirit to canonize the NT how did they get the OT wrong?

For almost 400 years Christians were reading (possibly hundreds) different writings from different people they thought were inspired by God. Why did God not reveal to them his true word? If he waited 400 years to reveal his true word who is to say he won't wait to reveal more of his word at a time when humanity needs it most? I believe all things are possible with God? Don't you? It would have been a lot easier if Jesus would have told us which books belong in the bible :)

And yes, I know Paul was "considered" an apostle but generally when one refers to "the apostles" they think of the original twelve which is what I meant and you should have inferred. Don't go gettin' all book smart and scholarly on me otherwise we will start confusin' each other!!

 

[H. Richard]

How about you, being polite and all answer my questions before asking yours?

I can't see that I asked a question. What I did was point out that Peter said Paul's writings are scripture. I see no reason for you to say I was un-polite.\

Perhaps the scripture I quoted upset your ideas and it is not polite to upset your ideas.

 

[H. Richard]

Paul was talking about scripture that he studied "from childhood" AKA Torah which would not include one word of New Testament. I do not see him calling his own writings as "scriptures"

http://biblehub.com/2_timothy/3-16.htm

Books written by Moses is the Word of God. The rest is word of kings, prophets, apostles, letters of pastors to one another, historical accounts......

If Jude is "scripture" and quotes from Enoch then why Enoch is not in the bible?
If 2 Samuel is "scripture" and mentions book of Jashar then why Jashar is not in the bible?

I do not see writings of that pagan king in the bible. Why words of apostate (Solomon) are?

I don't see where Paul said his writing were scripture but I do see where Peter said Paul's writings are scriptures in one of his (Peter's) letters to the Jews.