What if I don’t want eternal life?

[Jack]

I'm not sure you do.
1 John 5:10-13
[10] He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
[11] And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
[12] He that HATH the Son HATH life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

[13] These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may KNOW that ye HAVE eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

OSAS is a great example of "doctrines of demons" leading people to Hell Fire!

 

[Rockerduck]

Jesus disagrees with you. There are those who are chosen for a role in heaven, which is the whole idea of “election”, but these are a finite number compared with the ones Jesus came to redeem. Not all Christians are chosen for a heavenly role.

Jesus does not disagree with Himself and scripture does not contradict itself. Your problem is with the Chosen.
No Holy Spirit = no Heaven .

You said "Can you answer without being vague? The Bible is not vague about anything…"

I wasn't vague, you are picking a fight..

 

[TiredSoul]

You're really gonna be disappointed!

Revelation 20:10
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Please explain how a God of mercy and love would condemn ANY person to an interminable existence of torment.

 

[TiredSoul]

Hello again TS…..
The death of my father at the young age of 52, motivated me to learn more about what happens to us when we die. Having been raised in the Anglican church, I was so worried about where he had gone and if he was OK? He was not a church goer himself, but made sure his children went to Sunday School and were confirmed in the church. After that my parents allowed us to make our own choices. So then I had good reason to dig deeper into the subject that most of us don’t know a lot about….and the whole church system is so focused on “going to heaven”, that they miss the purpose of us being created to live here on earth.

In my teens I stopped going to church because it was only a duty, not something I wanted to do…..I had never really learned anything of value from their education, and God was only a concept. I must admit though that I always knew he existed, but I didn’t really know Him….and I always wanted to. I was so sure that the “hell” my church preached was not of his doing, as it seemed totally opposed to his character.

In my early twenties, when my desire to know about what happens to us after death had been disappointed by so many unanswered questions, I was invited to study the Bible, rather than theology. I knew what the church taught, but I didn’t really agree with much of it, as I saw so much hypocrisy among its members. They picked up their “Christianity“ at the door of the church, and left it there on their way out.

I wanted to find God and because I had great respect for the Bible, a study of the scriptures was just what I needed to get to know my Creator….without fear and without simply carrying out a duty that seemed repetitive and meaningless.

When I was shown Eccl 9:5, 6, 10, a great weight was lifted from my shoulders.

“For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten. Indeed their love, their hate and their zeal have already perished, and they will no longer have a share in all that is done under the sun. . . . Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might; for there is no activity or planning or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol where you are going.” (NASB)
“Sheol” there is translated as “the grave” in the Jewish Tanakh. “Sheol” is the Hebrew equivalent to the Greek “hades”, which in most Bibles is translated as “hell”. There is no such place….”hell” is “the grave”.

The dead know nothing….they cannot think, plan, or do anything. My Dad was “sleeping” just as Jesus said of Lazarus. (John 11:11-14) So they cannot suffer.
Did you notice in verse 6 that, at death, emotions too have “perished”….including “love”. That is God’s primary quality, so it confirms what the Jews were taught in their Scripture, and believed originally, about death. That it was the cessation of life….but not forever. A return to life was promised, that the Bible reveals as a “resurrection”.…a return to life, in the flesh, reunited with those we have lost. (John 5:28-29)
A “restoration of all things” foretold by the prophets. (Acts 3:21)

We do not have an immortal soul that continues to live after the death of the body…..that was an adopted belief originating from the pagan Greeks. It is not taught in Scripture.

So, contrary to all that I had been taught, the Scriptures opened up to me a whole new view of life and death, and our purpose here on this lovingly prepared planet. I learned that death was never supposed to happen, so unlike the animals, we have no ‘program’ to accept it….the death of loved ones leaves painful holes in our life that never get filled. The scars are there for as long as we live.

I wondered why, if death was inevitable, we can have such intense grief when it touches us. If it takes us to a better place, then why does it feel so wrong…and why do we fear it?
Ecclesiastes, written by Solomon, also speaks about the death of animals, and this too was an eye opener.

Eccl 3:18-20 says…
”I said to myself concerning the sons of men, “God has surely tested them in order for them to see that they are but beasts.” For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same. As one dies so dies the other; indeed, they all have the same breath and there is no advantage for man over beast, for all is vanity. All go to the same place. All came from the dust and all return to the dust.” (NASB)

We have no advantage over the animals in death…..we all breathe the same air, (spirit) and die the same death, but for us this seems to be so foreign. God made us in his image and likeness, so he never intended for us to die. The “tree of life” in the garden of Eden was the means to live an “everlasting life” in mortal flesh. (Gen 3:22-24)

God created us to live forever as it says in Eccl 3:11….”He has made everything appropriate in its time. He has also set eternity in their heart, yet so that man will not find out the work which God has done from the beginning even to the end.”

We have “eternity” programmed into our hearts….which is why death feels so wrong. We were to have forever to learn new things about God and his creation.

Reading Revelation will create more questions than it answers unfortunately. Why? Because the precepts created by the church fight with what the Bible teaches about life and death. It’s the reason why there are so many unanswered (or should I say, unanswerable) questions, whereas the Bible itself answers all questions without contradiction.

Thank you; I tend to agree with your description, which is pretty consistent with what I've heard from a previous minister of mine.

Actually, I belong to an Anglican congregation that is focussed on love for all; and, although the Bible is the basis for teaching, the message is always consistent with the second Great Commandment. 1 John 4:20 questions whether one can love God if one doesn't love his/her neighbour, so this affects the first Great Commandment as well, and Jesus' parable of the Good Samaritan makes it clear that everyone, even those we disagree with (and whose colour, creed, nationality, social status and lifestyle are different from ours), is our neighbour.

At the risk of diverging from the thread, I disagree with the proposition that the Bible is the "word of God", to be taken literally. If this were so, it would have no conflicts or inconsistencies, because God (and, therefore, His word) is constant. However, such inconsistencies do exist. For example, Leviticus and other books of the Pentateuch describe rules for sacrifice, while in Isaiah 1:11-17, as well as in other passages in both the Old and New Testaments, God rejects sacrifices. I fear that too many focus on such inconsistencies and end up "throwing the baby out with the bathwater", declaring that the Bible is a "load of rubbish". Nevertheless, the word of God is clearly within the Bible, and there is great wisdom within its pages.

I am aware that the Gospels were written decades after Jesus' crucifixion and ascension, with the Biblical canon being established in the following centuries. I was informed by a minister whose knowledge I trust that Revelation was only accepted into the canon by one vote. I have come to the conclusion that the Bible is a record of Man's experience with, and understanding of, God, to be taken seriously but allowing for some human interference along the way.

This is all to say that I intend reading Revelation, as well as other parts of the Bible, to see what they actually say. They may give me a better understanding; they may not. As I have said before, though, I will have no say in the final outcome. I can only follow God's commandments, however falteringly, and ask for forgiveness, leaving the rest to Him.

 

[amigo de christo]

Please explain how a God of mercy and love would condemn ANY person to an interminable existence of torment.

They condemn themselves .
To reject Christ JESUS
and or to make beleive like its not necesarry to have beleived on Him
offers up only damantion and condemnation and utter blasphemy against GOD all mighty and the Lamb .
So lets remember that
when folks come on trying to preach what they THINK is love and loving
and yet it allows sins and even unbelief to remain upon the people .
How often i hear and have heard the phrase
we are loving them to GOD , only to see its not GOD at all
they are so called loving them too . Seems that god accepts sins
and even calls evil good and good evil and even hollers that all religoins are finding god their own way
That be the voice of a liar who desires nothing but the second death upon humanity .
But the dark one will do all to make it seem loving to not correct brethren in sin
To seem loving by making a real broad lovey road to GOD . So lets all be on gaurd
because many houses of christendom are arleady under this other sensual version of love
and what they beleive to be of God . Hope that encouraged you .

 

[amigo de christo]

Please explain how a God of mercy and love would condemn ANY person to an interminable existence of torment.

And now lets see how simple it was for the serpent to decieve eve
How did he do it .
GOD had told adam who obviously told eve , seeing she quoated it to the serpent ,
We may not eat of the tree in the midst of the garden for in the day ye do ye shall surely die .
And the serpent said NAY ye shall not surely die ye shall simply become as gods to know good and evil .
BUT THEY DID DIE .
The sepent and its approach remains cloaked as though
Something GOD has said will not come to pass
and really just a good thing will , something good for one .
You can almost hear the serpent say
HAS GOD really said ye must beleive .
And the church says , WHY yes , for all who do beleive in him shall be saved
but unto all who do not beleive on him but reject Him they shall surely be condemned .
Only to hear the sepent say
NAY , NAY surely GOD is love , What kind of GOD would do such thing
But what the churches seem to have forgotten in favor of a sensual love THEY THINK is of GOD
is that GOD cannot lie . HE warns for a reason , seeing HE desires NOT the death of the wicked
but rather they repent . Lets not try and alter the iamge of GOD
to fit into a love of the woerld that always panders to the felsh of men .

 

[TiredSoul]

They condemn themselves .
To reject Christ JESUS
and or to make beleive like its not necesarry to have beleived on Him
offers up only damantion and condemnation and utter blasphemy against GOD all mighty and the Lamb .
So lets remember that
when folks come on trying to preach what they THINK is love and loving
and yet it allows sins and even unbelief to remain upon the people .
How often i hear and have heard the phrase
we are loving them to GOD , only to see its not GOD at all
they are so called loving them too . Seems that god accepts sins
and even calls evil good and good evil and even hollers that all religoins are finding god their own way
That be the voice of a liar who desires nothing but the second death upon humanity .
But the dark one will do all to make it seem loving to not correct brethren in sin
To seem loving by making a real broad lovey road to GOD . So lets all be on gaurd
because many houses of christendom are arleady under this other sensual version of love
and what they beleive to be of God . Hope that encouraged you .

Does God condemn a person who turned away from God because he or she was sexually abused by a church leader as a child?

 

[amigo de christo]

Please explain how a God of mercy and love would condemn ANY person to an interminable existence of torment.

one who is a heretic , after the first or second warning , Reject him
he condemns himself . THOSE who reject JESUS condemn themselves .
Their own selves . The lake of fire is real .
And if we love the people we point to the dire and aboslute necessity to have beleived on JESUS the Christ .
for offering up any other hope
is like a man who went to the ocean
and saw a child drowning
and rather than throwing him the life line by which he could have been saved
He throws the child a fifty pound brick and says catch , this will save you .
THERE simply is No other name under heaven whereby we maybe saved .
Man cannot save himself . with man this is impossible
BUT NOT with GOD . And GOD has chosen by the preaching of the gospel
to save those who BELEIVE . many will wail and wail on the day of the LORD
And seeing i desire the death of none
WELL ITS TIME TO POINT to the SON . enjoy the last rhyme my friend . IT IS CHRIST preaching time in the building
and round the world .

 

[amigo de christo]

Does God condemn a person who turned away from God because he or she was sexually abused by a church leader as a child?

YES .
How often some of us have been treated horribly by some church leaders ,
But it didnt cause ME to LEAVE GOD .
anyone who comes not too or leaves
DID SO because they loved their sin . excuses that blinded them .
People within christendom
many of them treat me like dirt
YOU dont see me saying , OH i should leave GOD , OH HE betrayed me .
Does that help at all .
They came out for they were not of us .

 

[Aunty Jane]

Jesus does not disagree with Himself and scripture does not contradict itself. Your problem is with the Chosen.
No Holy Spirit = no Heaven .

You said "Can you answer without being vague? The Bible is not vague about anything…"

I wasn't vague, you are picking a fight..

Asking for clarification is not picking a fight....I asked you questions and what came back was vague answers.
“No Holy Spirit = no heaven” isn’t really an answer.

Who are the elect?...and why was their choosing necessary? Why does Christ need a “bride”?

What will the elect do in heaven? And is heaven the only place that Christians will live forever?

Are the questions too hard?

 

[Aunty Jane]

Actually, I belong to an Anglican congregation that is focussed on love for all; and, although the Bible is the basis for teaching, the message is always consistent with the second Great Commandment. 1 John 4:20 questions whether one can love God if one doesn't love his/her neighbour, so this affects the first Great Commandment as well, and Jesus' parable of the Good Samaritan makes it clear that everyone, even those we disagree with (and whose colour, creed, nationality, social status and lifestyle are different from ours), is our neighbour.

Well, that was actually one of my main concerns....that genuine Christianity is not something practiced just on a local level. Paul said that all must agree without divisions, (1 Cor 1:10) so jumping congregations because you like one minister over another, really doesn’t fit with what Christ taught, since ALL in the Anglican Church should be doing what your congregation’s minister promotes. It should be the same in all congregations globally...that same spirit should be evident. I didn’t find it. That is not to say that there were not some very good people in my congregation, but the minister in mine was a rather heartless man who reminded me of the Pharisees in Jesus’ day....he refused to conduct my father’s funeral because he was not a church goer, but he made weekly contributions to the church that was sent with us every Sunday. He accepted our money but would not lower himself to give my Dad a decent funeral.
Some weeks later a couple of ladies from the church called around and asked my mother for the money we had missed giving since my father’s death. That did it for me.....

Not once in all the years that we had attended that church did the minister call to see if he could be of some help or benefit to my parents, spiritually. My father lost his faith in the war, losing his only brother and best friend in the conflict overseas. Some counsel might have made his loss a little lighter to carry, but it was my own loss that motivated me to look elsewhere for answers.

In the first century there was not only one minister (pastor) in a congregation, because God has never left his people without direction by a body of responsible spiritually qualified elders, who were responsible for taking the lead in worship. Like the first Christians, these elders were chosen because of their spirituality and Christ-like qualities, not needing a college degree in order to teach others.

Christendom’s clergy class did not exist until Christendom itself was established, well after the death of Christ. Roman Catholicism was the model of “Christianity” until the Reformation, and the great shame in the departure from a clearly corrupted Christianity (nothing close to the church as it existed in the first century) was the emphasis on one clergyman to lead....and the whole congregation either thrived or faltered based on that one man’s performance.
When a body of elders are given congregation responsibility, all keep the body in check, as power of any sort over the flock, given to just one man would corrupt them as we see clearly in many of the sects of Christendom, clinging to the teachings of one man.

At the risk of diverging from the thread, I disagree with the proposition that the Bible is the "word of God", to be taken literally. If this were so, it would have no conflicts or inconsistencies, because God (and, therefore, His word) is constant. However, such inconsistencies do exist. For example, Leviticus and other books of the Pentateuch describe rules for sacrifice, while in Isaiah 1:11-17, as well as in other passages in both the Old and New Testaments, God rejects sacrifices.

I agree, the Bible is a wonderful foundation for faith, telling a “warts and all” story of man’s relationship with God....but not many can tell us why we needed to go down this difficult path in the first place.
Unless we know what God purposed for humankind in the beginning, we will not know what it is that is restored in the end....

Reading through the verses in Isaiah shows us why God was repulsed at their sacrifices.....they were in a disgraceful state spiritually speaking, which made their sacrifices repulsive to God......given out of duty but not with any heart appreciation for why they were doing it. (Isa 1:2-5)
God demands obedience before sacrifice....so their sacrifices made in disobedience just showed them up for what they were....

I fear that too many focus on such inconsistencies and end up "throwing the baby out with the bathwater", declaring that the Bible is a "load of rubbish". Nevertheless, the word of God is clearly within the Bible, and there is great wisdom within its pages.

That is true....small misunderstandings or large misinterpretations are usually at the bottom of all those seeming inconsistencies. If the Bible is the word of God and humans translate things incorrectly, can we really blame God for that? Who is it that would lead corrupt men to misinterpret and mistranslate things?
This is why a study of the Bible, rather than church theology is an eye opener. I love to do original language word studies and have found so many hidden truths that way. I really had no idea how far the church had strayed from the teachings of a Jewish Messiah.

I have come to the conclusion that the Bible is a record of Man's experience with, and understanding of, God, to be taken seriously but allowing for some human interference along the way.

Agreed...the words can be altered to give a false impression, but no one will be able to change the message.

This is all to say that I intend reading Revelation, as well as other parts of the Bible, to see what they actually say. They may give me a better understanding; they may not. As I have said before, though, I will have no say in the final outcome. I can only follow God's commandments, however falteringly, and ask for forgiveness, leaving the rest to Him.

Revelation has so many wonderful truths, but not many in Christendom have a clue as to their true meanings. They try to fit their beliefs into the Bible’s narrative....but end up with so many contradictions.

Just go back to Genesis and see why God put us here......that is what will be restored and the Kingdom and it’s rulers are the means to getting us back to that original purpose.

 

[PS95]

“No Holy Spirit = no heaven” isn’t really an answer.

Who are the elect?...and why was their choosing necessary? Why does Christ need a “bride”?

The elect are people who accepted Jesus as their Savior and are born anew both Jew & Gentile.

What will the elect do in heaven? And is heaven the only place that Christians will live forever?

The elect will inherent the new heavens and earth that comes down from God and He will dwell with us.

Are the questions too hard?

Not at all. JWs like you turn it into fiction.

 

[PS95]

Does God condemn a person who turned away from God because he or she was sexually abused by a church leader as a child?

Hello TiredSoul,
That is so so very awful and sad. I hope you don't mind me asking ..if you happen to you be a victim of that horror? I think it's likely the first reaction to pull from God when that happens.
It is difficult to understand why that happens ever-- even though we know there is plenty of evil in this world- and to make it even worse it seems that it should never happen in a church setting!! Yet, not all in a church are Christians and many evils can occur. I know of several people who have had to deal with that who are now grown. It has lasting effects.
My belief is that God is always there and He cares for us and for children, but and He tolerates evils that we do to each other for NOW. He fully expects church leaders to call authorities because not only is that a sin but it is a CRIME and we are ALL to obey the laws of the land and the authorities.
Both the Catholic Church and the Jehovah's Witnesses have terrible track records for not calling the authorities and sweeping it under the rug. The problem is that these people go on to abuse another and another and should never be let go! As far as I know the catholic church has "apologized" and changed their ways. Let's hope. It is obviously a day too late.

The JWs however have hunkered down and are seeking to have clergy privilege in order to continue hiding it. Each state has it's own laws and in PA they are to report it, but JWs have defied that law time and time again. Recently, 17 JWs in PA alone, have been arrested in a special investigation. Some were elders in their halls. I think 11 have been sentenced so far. JWs use the bible to try to say that they don't have to report it unless there are eyewitnesses to the molesting which is RIDICULOUS. That abuse of scripture JW policy has harmed countless children irrevocably and still does. In Australia a few years back they did an investigation and it was found that more JWs have had this happen than in the Catholic church- when you compare the populations of the two. That is not something that is widely known.

I don't doubt that this can happen anywhere and in any church thanks to evil, but the right thing should always be done!! That is to report it. I understand that we all sin and we don't want to judge- but this is a horrid crime and protecting children should always be FIRST! It is an abomination. Jesus said it is better to have a millstone tied around your neck and tossed into the sea than to harm a child or cause them to sin. I believe Him.
God repays and I understand how a person can feel detached and unprotected by God when that happens to them.. God allows all sorts of tragedies and evils happening upon children and all of us. There are too many who don't love and obey God in this world. That is the problem.
What I would say to your question is-- God has not abandoned you and you did nothing to deserve that at all - it was a very sick twisted mind who did that to you. God knows and He will repay in His time not ours, and the payment will be very very high. Much more than we can do. I would encourage you to tell God how you feel and keep talking to Him because He loves you, and knows the number of hairs on your very head, and you will be comforted. He wants you to trust Him and knows you have a heavy burden to carry. He wants you to come to Him with your burden and cry out to Him so He can show you how to live free from it.

 

[PS95]

It seems I am confined, through no choice of my own, to live for eternity, either in heaven or hell. Is it bad that I don’t find that appealing? Certainly no one finds the prospect of hell appealing. The heaven part sounds really nice, but for eternity? If I don’t have a choice, what about my free will? I prefer to die and that be the end of it.

The bible teaches us about a new heavens and a new earth that comes down from God where God dwells with us. That is the final destination of those who belong to Christ.

 

[Earburner]

OSAS is a great example of "doctrines of demons" leading people to Hell Fire!

Are you saying that 1 John 5:11-13 Is a doctrine of demons?
Listen to verse 12 and you will hear what the born again believer HAS and what the unsaved disbeliever HAS NOT.

 

[TiredSoul]

Well, that was actually one of my main concerns....that genuine Christianity is not something practiced just on a local level. Paul said that all must agree without divisions, (1 Cor 1:10) so jumping congregations because you like one minister over another, really doesn’t fit with what Christ taught, since ALL in the Anglican Church should be doing what your congregation’s minister promotes. It should be the same in all congregations globally...that same spirit should be evident. I didn’t find it. That is not to say that there were not some very good people in my congregation, but the minister in mine was a rather heartless man who reminded me of the Pharisees in Jesus’ day....he refused to conduct my father’s funeral because he was not a church goer, but he made weekly contributions to the church that was sent with us every Sunday. He accepted our money but would not lower himself to give my Dad a decent funeral.
Some weeks later a couple of ladies from the church called around and asked my mother for the money we had missed giving since my father’s death. That did it for me.....

Not once in all the years that we had attended that church did the minister call to see if he could be of some help or benefit to my parents, spiritually. My father lost his faith in the war, losing his only brother and best friend in the conflict overseas. Some counsel might have made his loss a little lighter to carry, but it was my own loss that motivated me to look elsewhere for answers.

In the first century there was not only one minister (pastor) in a congregation, because God has never left his people without direction by a body of responsible spiritually qualified elders, who were responsible for taking the lead in worship. Like the first Christians, these elders were chosen because of their spirituality and Christ-like qualities, not needing a college degree in order to teach others.

Christendom’s clergy class did not exist until Christendom itself was established, well after the death of Christ. Roman Catholicism was the model of “Christianity” until the Reformation, and the great shame in the departure from a clearly corrupted Christianity (nothing close to the church as it existed in the first century) was the emphasis on one clergyman to lead....and the whole congregation either thrived or faltered based on that one man’s performance.
When a body of elders are given congregation responsibility, all keep the body in check, as power of any sort over the flock, given to just one man would corrupt them as we see clearly in many of the sects of Christendom, clinging to the teachings of one man.

I agree, the Bible is a wonderful foundation for faith, telling a “warts and all” story of man’s relationship with God....but not many can tell us why we needed to go down this difficult path in the first place.
Unless we know what Gd purposed for humankind in the beginning, we will not know what it is that is restored in the end....

Reading through the verses in Isaiah shows us why God was repulsed at their sacrifices.....they were in a disgraceful state spiritually speaking, which made their sacrifices repulsive to God......given out of duty but not with any heart appreciation for why they were doing it. (Isa 1:2-5)
God demands obedience before sacrifice....so their sacrifices made in disobedience just showed them up for what they were....

That is true....small misunderstandings or large misinterpretations are usually at the bottom of all those seeming inconsistencies. If the Bible is the word of God and humans translate things incorrectly, can we really blame God for that? Who is it that would lead corrupt men to misinterpret and mistranslate things?
This is why a study of the Bible, rather than church theology is an eye opener. I love to do original language word studies and have found so many hidden truths that way. I really had no idea how far the church had strayed from the teachings of a Jewish Messiah.

Agreed...the words can be altered to give a false impression, but no one will be able to change the message.

Revelation has so many wonderful truths, but not many in Christendom have a clue as to their true meanings. They try to fit their beliefs into the Bible’s narrative....but end up with so many contradictions.

Just go back to Genesis and see why God put us here......that is what will be restored and the Kingdom and it’s rulers are the means to getting us back to that original purpose.

I am sorry that your father and your family were mistreated. Unfortunately, the Pharisees still exist - just in different garb and in different faiths. When the Church and its leaders fail to display the values that Christ taught, is it any wonder that people turn away? Unless those who represent Christ act with the love that He taught and displayed, Christianity, is hollow. As Paul wrote:

"If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing." (1 Corinthians 13:1-3)

 

[TiredSoul]

Hello TiredSoul,
That is so so very awful and sad. I hope you don't mind me asking ..if you happen to you be a victim of that horror? I think it's likely the first reaction to pull from God when that happens.
It is difficult to understand why that happens ever-- even though we know there is plenty of evil in this world- and to make it even worse it seems that it should never happen in a church setting!! Yet, not all in a church are Christians and many evils can occur. I know of several people who have had to deal with that who are now grown. It has lasting effects.
My belief is that God is always there and He cares for us and for children, but and He tolerates evils that we do to each other for NOW. He fully expects church leaders to call authorities because not only is that a sin but it is a CRIME and we are ALL to obey the laws of the land and the authorities.
Both the Catholic Church and the Jehovah's Witnesses have terrible track records for not calling the authorities and sweeping it under the rug. The problem is that these people go on to abuse another and another and should never be let go! As far as I know the catholic church has "apologized" and changed their ways. Let's hope. It is obviously a day too late.

The JWs however have hunkered down and are seeking to have clergy privilege in order to continue hiding it. Each state has it's own laws and in PA they are to report it, but JWs have defied that law time and time again. Recently, 17 JWs in PA alone, have been arrested in a special investigation. Some were elders in their halls. I think 11 have been sentenced so far. JWs use the bible to try to say that they don't have to report it unless there are eyewitnesses to the molesting which is RIDICULOUS. That abuse of scripture JW policy has harmed countless children irrevocably and still does. In Australia a few years back they did an investigation and it was found that more JWs have had this happen than in the Catholic church- when you compare the populations of the two. That is not something that is widely known.

I don't doubt that this can happen anywhere and in any church thanks to evil, but the right thing should always be done!! That is to report it. I understand that we all sin and we don't want to judge- but this is a horrid crime and protecting children should always be FIRST! It is an abomination. Jesus said it is better to have a millstone tied around your neck and tossed into the sea than to harm a child or cause them to sin. I believe Him.
God repays and I understand how a person can feel detached and unprotected by God when that happens to them.. God allows all sorts of tragedies and evils happening upon children and all of us. There are too many who don't love and obey God in this world. That is the problem.
What I would say to your question is-- God has not abandoned you and you did nothing to deserve that at all - it was a very sick twisted mind who did that to you. God knows and He will repay in His time not ours, and the payment will be very very high. Much more than we can do. I would encourage you to tell God how you feel and keep talking to Him because He loves you, and knows the number of hairs on your very head, and you will be comforted. He wants you to trust Him and knows you have a heavy burden to carry. He wants you to come to Him with your burden and cry out to Him so He can show you how to live free from it.

Thank you for your concern. Yes, I was sexually abused as a teenager, but not by anyone associated with the Church. That led to ongoing problems which affected me physically, mentally and spiritually. I would prefer not to go into further detail, except to say that I'm sure that my relationship with Jesus Christ has been adversely affected as a result.

I am aware that all sorts of organisations: various Church denominations, other religions, even the Boy Scouts, have experienced such problems. In my own diocese, the Bishop and ministers have made public apologies for the harms perpetrated, and funds have been established to compensate victims.

I am grateful that I didn't go on to perpetrate similar crimes myself, as some victims do. I also have to acknowledge that the perpetrators are damaged human beings, and I am in no position to judge them. Who knows what traumas they may have endured? Sexual abuse is but one form of abuse.

Jesus teaches us to forgive, and I do so, not for anyone else's sake but my own. Anger and resentment are poisonous - to me.

 

[Traveler]

It seems I am confined, through no choice of my own, to live for eternity, either in heaven or hell. Is it bad that I don’t find that appealing? Certainly no one finds the prospect of hell appealing. The heaven part sounds really nice, but for eternity? If I don’t have a choice, what about my free will? I prefer to die and that be the end of it.

The thing is your soul which is basically you is eternal. Not much you can do about that , So the eternal life comes in because it would be better to have a physical body to live in than nothing but hell to burn in.

 

[PS95]

Thank you for your concern. Yes, I was sexually abused as a teenager, but not by anyone associated with the Church. That led to ongoing problems which affected me physically, mentally and spiritually. I would prefer not to go into further detail, except to say that I'm sure that my relationship with Jesus Christ has been adversely affected as a result.

I am aware that all sorts of organisations: various Church denominations, other religions, even the Boy Scouts, have experienced such problems. In my own diocese, the Bishop and ministers have made public apologies for the harms perpetrated, and funds have been established to compensate victims.

I am grateful that I didn't go on to perpetrate similar crimes myself, as some victims do. I also have to acknowledge that the perpetrators are damaged human beings, and I am in no position to judge them. Who knows what traumas they may have endured? Sexual abuse is but one form of abuse.

Jesus teaches us to forgive, and I do so, not for anyone else's sake but my own. Anger and resentment are poisonous - to me.

TiredSoul, I can't tell you how much good that did me to read. I could not have read a better reply. You have clearly come a long way, and although you still carry the scar, you have taken all the counsel and wisdom from the Lord and applied it. I know that was indeed a process. I salute you and praise Him.
Be always strengthened in trusting in His faithfulness.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Unfortunately, the Pharisees still exist - just in different garb and in different faiths

The unfortunate part is that they are in different garb and in different faiths….when there should never have been a distinction between those who call themselves “Christians” in the first place. When Jesus walked the earth, the Jewish faith had become sectarian and he condemned them for that, and for adopting the “traditions of men“ and claiming them as doctrines.

Jesus said that Isaiah had prophesied about them…..that was over 700 years before Jesus was born as a human.
”You hypocrites, Isaiah aptly prophesied about you when he said: 8 ‘This people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far removed from me. 9 It is in vain that they keep worshipping me, for they teach commands of men as doctrines.’” (Matt 15:7-9)

The divided state of Christendom, like the Jewish religion of the first century, is more widely sectarian than Judaism ever was, and all are teaching doctrines that are “man-made”, rather than Bible based.

In that quarreling rabble of denominationalism, the diamond of truth was lost under a pile of broken glass.

The devil, Jesus said, was going to create a counterfeit Christianity that would confuse people and create friction between them…..and isn’t that what we see? Where is the love?
John said that this is what would identify Christ’s true followers…”love among yourselves”….(John 13:34-35) which in today’s world translates to “love in your own denomination”. Yet when it comes to times of political conflict, what do we see? That thin veneer of love will buckle and fold if those in your particular denomination are divided over political matters. That is one of the things that stood out to me in my own church. Politics was a divider.

In the two world wars of last century, did we not see Catholic killing Catholic, and Protestant killing Protestant, based on their nationality? Are Christians to be identified by their nationality? Or are they to be one united Christian brotherhood who are devoted to God and to each other? No government has the right to declare our brothers “enemies of the state” and expect that we will take up arms and kill them for political reasons.
Even today we see with Russia and Ukraine, both are “Catholic” countries, but who operate under a national banner. Where is God when Christians are at war with one another? Whose side does he take?

True Christians will stand out as different, refusing to take a political stance that would justify bloodshed against their own brothers in the faith.

“If anyone says, “I love God,” and yet is hating his brother, he is a liar. For the one who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen. 21 And we have this commandment from him, that whoever loves God must also love his brother.” (1 John 4:20-21)

. When the Church and its leaders fail to display the values that Christ taught, is it any wonder that people turn away? Unless those who represent Christ act with the love that He taught and displayed, Christianity, is hollow.

I totally agree…..and we know that God hates hypocrisy….so if we see such in our own ranks, something should be done to rectify it. No church is an isolated entity with no accountability to the entire brotherhood.
But in order for that brotherhood to operate cohesively, they need a central governing body to oversee the whole membership. Overseers were used in the first century to keep an eye on any who flouted God’s moral laws, or who would cause divisions in the congregations, and remove any who refused to repent or who continued to caused dissent.
1 Cor 5:9-13 shows us that those who sinned unrepentantly or cause conflict in the brotherhood must be removed. Yet what do we see in the churches today? Are sinners removed, or are clergy too afraid of reproving their members for fear that they will go elsewhere and take money away from the church that supports a minister’s lifestyle?
Were first century ministers paid to take care of the flock? What did Paul say about that?

He set a fine example for Christian elders. (Congregations were guided by a body of elders, never just one man) Though he was an apostle and could have been “an expensive burden” on the Christians in Thessalonica…..he did not “eat food from anyone free.” Rather, he ‘labored and toiled night and day’ to support himself. (2 Thess 3:8, 9)
No one should be paid a wage to do the Lord’s work.…we are slaves not employees.

"If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing." (1 Corinthians 13:1-3)

This is such an important Scripture….”love” must be the motivating force for all we do as Christians. Our brothers, no matter where they may live in the world, are precious to God, and they should be precious to us as well.
We would never support bloodshed as a participant in war, nor be directed to act in an unchristian way towards them, even to give tacit support to those conflicts.
Looking at the Middle East, as it is a hotbed of hatred and violence, who could support Israel or their enemies in this wanton bloodshed. If God was with Israel, no foreign allies would be necessary to provide military support for them. In ancient times, when Israel relied on foreign powers to support them, God deserted them and gave victory to their enemies. Jews to this day, despise Christians, yet will happily rely on their arms and soldiers.

True Christians have no political ideologies to support…they are proponents of God’s Kingdom, not man’s.
We are to be “no part of the world” as Jesus said… (John 17:16: 18:36)

What are your thoughts on this? What does it mean to be ”no part of the world”?