What is "Amazing Grace"?

[justbyfaith]

Of course faith requires our cooperation.

To be more accurate, faith is an attitude of surrender to the Lordship of Jesus Christ.

So then, if we do not endure under the pressure of temptation, can we really say that Jesus is our Lord?

It is not that faith depends on our cooperating with it, by walking in holiness; but, more accurately, that a living faith apprehends the love of God (Galatians 3:14, Romans 5:5) so that we cannot do anything but behave according to that love.

Because we love the Lord, we will not give in to temptation. And we love the Lord because of faith.

Therefore, we are kept by the power of God through faith; because faith apprehends the love of God so that we behave according to what the scripture teaches is the way of holiness.

Our salvation is not given to us as the result of our walk, however. It is given to us as the result of the faith that produces our walk. And a living and saving faith will most assuredly produce the walk that appears to be required.

I believe that you should take the time and think on what is meant by the holy scriptures in Roman(s) 9:30-10:4, @BreadOfLife.

btw, did you listen to the message that I posted for you?

 

[justbyfaith]

In referencing any scripture, I consider that the reader will be a Berean (Acts of the Apostles 17:10-11) and see what is being said by it in its immediate and topical contexts.

That being said, I do not believe that any scripture is ever nullified or contradicted by anything within its immediate or topical contexts. For the holy scriptures do not contradict themselves. Therefore every verse of holy scripture stands on its own as a bastion of scriptural truth; and of course one can receive added insight through reading the context (both immediate and topical).

 

[BreadOfLife]

In referencing any scripture, I consider that the reader will be a Berean (Acts of the Apostles 17:10-11) and see what is being said by it in its immediate and topical contexts.

That being said, I do not believe that any scripture is ever nullified or contradicted by anything within its immediate or topical contexts. For the holy scriptures do not contradict themselves. Therefore every verse of holy scripture stands on its own as a bastion of scriptural truth; and of course one can receive added insight through reading the context (both immediate and topical).

Funny thing about the Bereans - they only had the Old Testament to go by.
And they eventually accepted a truth that is NOT on the pages of the OT: that Jesus of Nazareth is the Christ - the Son of God.

You ARE correct about ONE thing - the Scriptures do NOT contradict themselves.
They assert that our final earthly Authority is the Church and NOT the Scriptures (Sola Scriptura) as Protestants falsely claim.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Of course faith requires our cooperation.

To be more accurate, faith is an attitude of surrender to the Lordship of Jesus Christ.

So then, if we do not endure under the pressure of temptation, can we really say that Jesus is our Lord?

It is not that faith depends on our cooperating with it, by walking in holiness; but, more accurately, that a living faith apprehends the love of God (Galatians 3:14, Romans 5:5) so that we cannot do anything but behave according to that love.

Because we love the Lord, we will not give in to temptation. And we love the Lord because of faith.

Therefore, we are kept by the power of God through faith; because faith apprehends the love of God so that we behave according to what the scripture teaches is the way of holiness.

Our salvation is not given to us as the result of our walk, however. It is given to us as the result of the faith that produces our walk. And a living and saving faith will most assuredly produce the walk that appears to be required.

I believe that you should take the time and think on what is meant by the holy scriptures in Roman(s) 9:30-10:4, @BreadOfLife.

btw, did you listen to the message that I posted for you?

Like I said in my last post - you can come up with ANY manner of doctrine when you cherry-pick verses of Scripture out of context with the others.

If you read Scripture in its proper context, however - you cannot come to the conclusions that you have.
That's why t took 1500 years for men to twist the Scriptures into doctrines that were never believed in or taught- such as Sola Fide and Sola Scriptura.

These 2 main pillars of Protestantism have NO Scriptural basis whatsoever - but are, in fact, a product of cherry-picking.

 

[justbyfaith]

Like I said in my last post - you can come up with ANY manner of doctrine when you cherry-pick verses of Scripture out of context with the others.

In every cherry there is a seed that can produce an entire tree that can produce more seeds...so I will continue to plant cherries into good ground. If the ground of your heart is rocky and shallow, thorny, or by the way-side, well, there are others who are good ground; so I will continue to be faithful to plant the seeds.

That's why t took 1500 years for men to twist the Scriptures into doctrines that were never believed in or taught- such as Sola Fide and Sola Scriptura.

Sola scriptura: 2 Timothy 3:16.

Sola fide (salvation by grace through faith apart from works): Romans 4:1-8, Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:4-7.

These 2 main pillars of Protestantism have NO Scriptural basis whatsoever - but are, in fact, a product of cherry-picking.

It is impossible to even quote or reference scripture verses without being accused of cherry-picking by people like you. Just know that in giving the references, I am inviting you to look up the scriptures in question and to read them in their context.

Know also that the holy scriptures don't contradict themselves; and therefore, the immediate and/or topical context of a verse is never going to nullify the plain meaning of any singular verse.

Therefore, cherry-picking is a valid way of planting seeds into the hearts of men.

 

[justbyfaith]

@BreadOfLife, I suggest you go here:

Commentary on Romans.

Because in that thread I cannot be cherry-picking because I am traveling through the word and expounding on each verse one after the other so that everything can be seen in its context.

 

[justbyfaith]

@BreadOfLife, I suggest you go here:

Commentary on Romans.

Because in that thread I cannot be cherry-picking because I am traveling through the word and expounding on each verse one after the other so that everything can be seen in its context.

 

[BreadOfLife]

In every cherry there is a seed that can produce an entire tree that can produce more seeds...so I will continue to plant cherries into good ground. If the ground of your heart is rocky and shallow, thorny, or by the way-side, well, there are others who are good ground; so I will continue to be faithful to plant the seeds.

Sola scriptura: 2 Timothy 3:16.
Sola fide (salvation by grace through faith apart from works): Romans 4:1-8, Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:4-7.

It is impossible to even quote or reference scripture verses without being accused of cherry-picking by people like you. Just know that in giving the references, I am inviting you to look up the scriptures in question and to read them in their context.

Know also that the holy scriptures don't contradict themselves; and therefore, the immediate and/or topical context of a verse is never going to nullify the plain meaning of any singular verse.

Therefore, cherry-picking is a valid way of planting seeds into the hearts of men.

2 Timothy 3:16 is about Scripture being authoritative - but not the SOLE authority.
You have to deal with the following verses that say the CHURCH is our final earhtly Authority (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15, John 20:21-23).

As for Rom. 4:1-8, Eph. 2:8-9, Tit. 3:4-7 supposedly being about Sola Fide - they must be read i CONTEXT with verses like 1 Cor. 13:1-3, Gal. 5:6, James 2:14-26, etc.

And NO - cherry-picking is NEVER a good idea . . .

 

[justbyfaith]

2 Timothy 3:16 is about Scripture being authoritative - but not the SOLE authority.
You have to deal with the following verses that say the CHURCH is our final earhtly Authority (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15, John 20:21-23).

These verses do not say that the Catholic Church is the final authority. They speak of the church as those who have placed their faith in Jesus Christ for their salvation. This includes Protestants everywhere.

As for Rom. 4:1-8, Eph. 2:8-9, Tit. 3:4-7 supposedly being about Sola Fide - they must be read i CONTEXT with verses like 1 Cor. 13:1-3, Gal. 5:6, James 2:14-26, etc.

Those passages are not in the immediate context of the passages that I mentioned.

And NO - cherry-picking is NEVER a good idea . . .

Matthew cherry-picked Hosea 11:1 out of the OT in Matthew 2:15; and even applied it differently than in the original context. Why don't you check it out.

 

[justbyfaith]

@BreadOfLife,

Just wondering if you listened to the whole of the message that I posted for you in the following thread:

The woman caught in adultery.

 

[BreadOfLife]

These verses do not say that the Catholic Church is the final authority. They speak of the church as those who have placed their faith in Jesus Christ for their salvation. This includes Protestants everywhere..

That’s why I didn’t say “Catholic Church”. I simply said the Church.
I believe Christ’s Church to be the Catholic Church – but that’s another issue altogether.

The point here is that Jesus never states that Scripture is our “SOLE” Authority – not does ANY writer of Scripture.

Those passages are not in the immediate context of the passages that I mentioned.

Matthew cherry-picked Hosea 11:1 out of the OT in Matthew 2:15; and even applied it differently than in the original context. Why don't you check it out.

Scripture cannot contradict itself – so the verses I presented are indeed in the overall context of Scripture. You cannot have 2 conflicting verses ANYWHERE in Scripture. They must harmonize.

Finally – Hosea 11:1 and Matt. 2:15 DO harmonize when you realize that the verse in Hosea is a polyvalent prophecy. This is the same type of prophetic language that we read in Rev. 12:1 with the “Woman” who represents BOTH Israel AND Mary.

 

[justbyfaith]

The point here is that Jesus never states that Scripture is our “SOLE” Authority – not does ANY writer of Scripture.

Indeed...for no prophecy of scripture is of any private interpretation.

This is not to say that holy scripture is not the ultimate authority. It is to say that the interpretations of the church (Catholic and Protestant) are to be taken into account when determining the meaning of holy scripture.

If the Catholic Church, for example, were to teach something that is contrary to a plain meaning and public interpretation of holy scripture (by ex cathedra or otherwise)...the plain meaning of holy scripture would take precedence and would trump that ex cathedra statement.

Scripture cannot contradict itself – so the verses I presented are indeed in the overall context of Scripture. You cannot have 2 conflicting verses ANYWHERE in Scripture. They must harmonize.

So...harmonize them (instead of believing that the verses you are quoting take precedence over and nullify the verses that I am quoting).

 

[justbyfaith]

@BreadOfLife,

Did you listen to the message?

The woman caught in adultery.

 

[justbyfaith]

Finally – Hosea 11:1 and Matt. 2:15 DO harmonize when you realize that the verse in Hosea is a polyvalent prophecy. This is the same type of prophetic language that we read in Rev. 12:1 with the “Woman” who represents BOTH Israel AND Mary.

Define polyvalent.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Indeed...for no prophecy of scripture is of any private interpretation.

This is not to say that holy scripture is not the ultimate authority. It is to say that the interpretations of the church (Catholic and Protestant) are to be taken into account when determining the meaning of holy scripture.

If the Catholic Church, for example, were to teach something that is contrary to a plain meaning and public interpretation of holy scripture (by ex cathedra or otherwise)...the plain meaning of holy scripture would take precedence and would trump that ex cathedra statement.

That's why the Catholc Church DOESN'T teach anything that is contrary to Scripture.

And Scripture ISN'T the ultimate Authority because Scripture itself gives that role to Christ's CHURCH - not Scripture (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15, John 20:21-23).

So...harmonize them (instead of believing that the verses you are quoting take precedence over and nullify the verses that I am quoting).

I HAVE harmonized them - over and over and over in other threads - but you refuse to listen.

MOST of the verses that you present about "faith apart from works" are referring to works of the LAW - which was fulfilled in Christ.
I'm not talking about those works. As I have stated repeatedly - the verses I have presented shoe that the works God has prepared FOR us in advance (Eph. 2:10) are an essential element of faith - just like belief is..

We've been over this DOZENS of times.

 

[justbyfaith]

That's why the Catholc Church DOESN'T teach anything that is contrary to Scripture.

I believe it does...but i am afraid that if I bring up specific cases, you will be offended and will accuse me again of being a liar. i don't want to risk it...which does not mean that there aren't valid instances in which the Catholic Chirch does indeed teach contrary to scripture.

And Scripture ISN'T the ultimate Authority because Scripture itself gives that role to Christ's CHURCH - not Scripture (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15, John 20:21-23).

And of course, Christ's CHURCH, consists not only of the Catholic hierarchy...but of Protestant scholars and teachers also.

I HAVE harmonized them - over and over and over in other threads - but you refuse to listen.

I don't think that you have.

MOST of the verses that you present about "faith apart from works" are referring to works of the LAW - which was fulfilled in Christ.
I'm not talking about those works. As I have stated repeatedly - the verses I have presented shoe that the works God has prepared FOR us in advance (Eph. 2:10) are an essential element of faith - just like belief is..

I don't accept that interpretation...I believe that works = works; whether of the law or of faith, we are not saved by works. When Paul wants to be referring to the works of the law, he mentions it. When he is referring to works period, he mentions it simply as works.

And if works are an essential element of faith, you have to consider the following...

Eph 2:8, For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9, Not of works, lest any man should boast.

If works are an essential element of faith, then consider that we are saved by grace through faith and not of works. So if I am saved through faith and this includes works, then I am also saved by works in being saved through faith. But the Bible specifically teaches that works do not save me. Therefore if I am saved by faith, and am not saved by works, it follows that works are not an essential element of faith. Do you follow my line of reasoning?

 

[BreadOfLife]

I believe it does...but i am afraid that if I bring up specific cases, you will be offended and will accuse me again of being a liar. i don't want to risk it...which does not mean that there aren't valid instances in which the Catholic Chirch does indeed teach contrary to scripture.



And of course, Christ's CHURCH, consists not only of the Catholic hierarchy...but of Protestant scholars and teachers also.



I don't think that you have.



I don't accept that interpretation...I believe that works = works; whether of the law or of faith, we are not saved by works. When Paul wants to be referring to the works of the law, he mentions it. When he is referring to works period, he mentions it simply as works.

And if works are an essential element of faith, you have to consider the following...

Eph 2:8, For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9, Not of works, lest any man should boast.

If works are an essential element of faith, then consider that we are saved by grace through faith and not of works. So if I am saved through faith and this includes works, then I am also saved by works in being saved through faith. But the Bible specifically teaches that works do not save me. Therefore if I am saved by faith, and am not saved by works, it follows that works are not an essential element of faith. Do you follow my line of reasoning?

Once again, you’re guilty of cherry-picking verses and taking them OUT of context.

You quote Eph. 2:8-9 – but you leave OUT Eph. 2:10 which puts the previous verses in CONTEXT.
Eph. 2:4-10
But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Those works that GOD prepared FOR us are an essential element of the gift of faith that He has given us - which requires our RESPONSE.

If I give YOU a gift – and you refuse it – the gift was never received.
It requires YOUR response – your cooperation for the gift to be given. A gift is not forced on someone.

The SAME is true for the gift of salvation. God gives us the tools – but WE have to cooperate with those tools. This is why Paul refers to us as “CO-Workers” (sunergos) with God (1 Cor. 3:9).

 

[justbyfaith]

Once again, you’re guilty of cherry-picking verses and taking them OUT of context.

You quote Eph. 2:8-9 – but you leave OUT Eph. 2:10 which puts the previous verses in CONTEXT.
Eph. 2:4-10
But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Those works that GOD prepared FOR us are an essential element of the gift of faith that He has given us - which requires our RESPONSE.

If I give YOU a gift – and you refuse it – the gift was never received.
It requires YOUR response – your cooperation for the gift to be given. A gift is not forced on someone.

The SAME is true for the gift of salvation. God gives us the tools – but WE have to cooperate with those tools. This is why Paul refers to us as “CO-Workers” (sunergos) with God (1 Cor. 3:9).

We receive the gift of salvation through faith alone and it is a free gift.

We receive the Holy Spirit by faith (Galatians 3:14).

Then, as a part of this gift (as the result of faith alone), the Lord sheds abroad His love in our hearts through the Holy Ghost (Romans 5:5).

This love is not in word or in tongue only, but in deed and in truth (1 John 3:17-18).

It is the fulfilling of the righteousness of the law within us (Romans 13:8-10, Galatians 5:14, 1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:6, Romans 8:4).

But it is given to us as a free gift, through faith alone.

Ensuing works are the result of having received that gift.

For it is "the gift of righteousness" (Romans 5:17).

iow, ye must be born again.

 

[BreadOfLife]

We receive the gift of salvation through faith alone and it is a free gift.

We receive the Holy Spirit by faith (Galatians 3:14).

Then, as a part of this gift (as the result of faith alone), the Lord sheds abroad His love in our hearts through the Holy Ghost (Romans 5:5).

This love is not in word or in tongue only, but in deed and in truth (1 John 3:17-18).

It is the fulfilling of the righteousness of the law within us (Romans 13:8-10, Galatians 5:14, 1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:6, Romans 8:4).

But it is given to us as a free gift, through faith alone.

Ensuing works are the result of having received that gift.

For it is "the gift of righteousness" (Romans 5:17).

iow, ye must be born again.

We receive the Holy Spirit by being BAPTIZED (John 3:5, Acts 2:38-29).
This is part of that pesky cooperation with God’s grace that I was talking about - that YOU reject.

And, you STILL haven’t told me how a gift remains a “gift” without the cooperation of the person receiving the gift . . .

 

[justbyfaith]

We receive the Holy Spirit by being BAPTIZED (John 3:5, Acts 2:38-29).
This is part of that pesky cooperation with God’s grace that I was talking about - that YOU reject.

And, you STILL haven’t told me how a gift remains a “gift” without the cooperation of the person receiving the gift . . .

Now, a person can receive the Holy Spirit by being baptized (Acts of the Apostles 2:38-39); but a man can also be sealed by the Holy Spirit because of simple faith.

Eph 1:13, In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

And the only cooperation that is required concerning a gift is that you receive it.